Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
The drop in the stock market didn't mean $$$$ went somewhere. The price of a share of stock is what a willing seller will sell it for to a willing buyer.



If the share of stock is worth $20 today (willing seller/buyer), but only $15 tomorrow, the "lost" $5 didn't go to anyone.....price is a liquid number that flows according to the economy.



Mike
 
Len_A said:
Why Corker is putting this out there, and misleading people like you, is something that you will have to ask him about.
Click to expand...



You sure wages are that close to foreign competitors? I've heard up to $70 hr for production workers. My brother lives close to the BMW plant in SC and I havent heard of wages in that range. How about #4, the union paying people full pay 4 years after their jobs are finished? It seems obvious that MANY THINGS aren't right, and the Auto Co's and UAW need to tell folks what their plans are for fixing them.
 
kpounds said:
You sure wages are that close to foreign competitors? I've heard up to $70 hr for production workers. My brother lives close to the BMW plant in SC and I havent heard of wages in that range. How about #4, the union paying people full pay 4 years after their jobs are finished? It seems obvious that MANY THINGS aren't right, and the Auto Co's and UAW need to tell folks what their plans are for fixing them.
Click to expand...



That's because the $70 an hour is misleading. That figure includes all costs for the current retirees medical coverage. Once the VEBA (Voluntary Employee Benefits Association) is fully funded, and Corker's figures there are misleading again, because GM doesn't owe anywhere near what he stated - he's including money already paid into the fund as of December, 2007, the hourly labor rate drops down to the point that Toyota no longer has an advantage.



The figures you hear are quoted in order to rile you up. Almost all of this was addressed in thelast contract, negotiated in October of 2007. The only thing that has gone wrong since then is that the credit market's imploded (not GM, Ford, or Chrysler's doing, neither is it Toyota, Honda, or Nissan's doing either),and cash flow has gone to hell with a further drop in sales. Plus gas prices spiked to over $4 a gallon, and that hurt sales as well.



One of the figures that the jack@ss opponents is that Toyota lost $336.9 million in the United States last quarter. No one can make money at this low level of car sales.
 
I agree with the riling up, that's about what the media is good at and giving us half the story. I am FOR the bailout, but I think changes need to be made. One overall GREAT change we could make is changing the tax system in this country to favor businesses, instead of the 15,000+ tax law IRS monstrosity we have now. (How do you get up to 15,000 tax laws?!?) The USA has the 2nd highest Corporate tax of all countries in the world.



Blog - America The Uncompetitive



Wall Street Journal - America The Uncompetitive
 
kpounds said:
I agree with the riling up, that's about what the media is good at and giving us half the story. I am FOR the bailout, but I think changes need to be made. One overall GREAT change we could make is changing the tax system in this country to favor businesses, instead of the 15,000+ tax law IRS monstrosity we have now. (How do you get up to 15,000 tax laws?!?) The USA has the 2nd highest Corporate tax of all countries in the world.



Blog - America The Uncompetitive



Wall Street Journal - America The Uncompetitive
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.
 
kpounds said:
I agree with the riling up, that's about what the media is good at and giving us half the story. I am FOR the bailout, but I think changes need to be made. One overall GREAT change we could make is changing the tax system in this country to favor businesses, instead of the 15,000+ tax law IRS monstrosity we have now. (How do you get up to 15,000 tax laws?!?) The USA has the 2nd highest Corporate tax of all countries in the world.



Blog - America The Uncompetitive



Wall Street Journal - America The Uncompetitive
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. With most of the press, it's all about selling advertising.



Our whole tax structure sucks. Every time they try fix it, they end up making it worse.
 
I just finished reading through all 27 pages, and can honestly say that non of it has changed my mind, just confirmed it. we need bailouts not because any one of these companies deserve it, we need these bailouts because of the aftermath that it will cause if any of the automakers declare bankruptcy. I completely agree that not a singe one of thee companies is truly deserving of a handout (loan companies included)



I think that ALL of the companies that have recieved part of the bailout money, or are trying to get some, DESERVE to fail, but, we CANNOT let them b/c of who/what they will effect.



Len A, my sympathy goes out to you and your family. The bailout has to go through for the millions that are in the same boat as you.



from reading though the posts, I haver gathered that a lot of people still don't understand that this will have a GLOBAL EFFECT. If gm (or ford or chrysler) goes down, every automaker in the world will be immensely affected. some of you seem to look at the automakers as individial companies, they could not be farther from the truth, each and every automaker is tied together, through their suppliers, reguardless of what contry or state the plant is located in.



Thats way I am for the bailout, but against the companies that are getting it
 
Inzane said:
There are TWO aspects to "quality". One is the reliability, failure data, recalls side of things.



The other which you seem to be oblivious to is how "nice" something is. The quality of materials and attention to detail. How well it's put together Things like asthetic quality, tactile sensation, road feedback, noise/vibration/harshness, steering feel, seat comfort, switch gear, panel alignment, how the doors feel when you open and close them, etc.



If all you care about is how often something breaks down then I could see why you don't differeniate between a *nice* interior and a cheap interior, or firm sporty suspension and your living room couch.



Even depsite those recalls and problems you mentioned, I would STILL gladly buy a Honda Accord over ANYTHING in the GM stable in those production years you mentioned.



I would pick unreliable class/style over reliable junk any day.





Case in point. My next new car purchase will most likely be a BMW. I'm going in knowing their "reliability" is questionable.... It will be worth it.
Click to expand...
There's nothing in the interior of a Cadillac CTS or STS, or a Lincoln MKS that is second to anything from BMW, M-B, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.
 
Len_A said:
There's nothing in the interior of a Cadillac CTS or STS, or a Lincoln MKS that is second to anything from BMW, M-B, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura.
Click to expand...



There you go cherry picking a particular model or two to suit your position. I already acknowledged that GM has made some "recent" improvements.



Try comparing a Pontiac Grand Prix (say an '04-05 model) to an Altima, Accord, Camry, TSX, Passat etc. of similar vintage. No contest.



Try comparing a J-body (now there's GM at it's finest) to a Protege, Sentra, Corolla or Civic of similar vintage. Again, no contest.



I could play this game all day long with you. We won't settle anything.
 
Inzane said:
There you go cherry picking a particular model or two to suit your position. I already acknowledged that GM has made some "recent" improvements.



Try comparing a Pontiac Grand Prix (say an '04-05 model) to an Altima, Accord, Camry, TSX, Passat etc. of similar vintage. No contest.



Try comparing a J-body (now there's GM at it's finest) to a Protege, Sentra, Corolla or Civic of similar vintage. Again, no contest.



I could play this game all day long with you. We won't settle anything.
Click to expand...
THere you go again dwelling on the past. Gran Prix is gone - replaced by the G8 which is an Australian import. On that, I agree - interior sucks. I find Ford's interiors far more comfortable. J Body - I had to look that one up - that's been gone for three years now. Who cares any more.



I'm cherry picking? Who the <bleep> said anything about cherry picking? You said you're next car is probably a BMW. I gave you my opinion - there's nothing in the interior of a Cadillac CTS or STS, or a Lincoln MKS that is second to anything from BMW, M-B, Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura. As of March or April, add the Lincoln MKZ to that list, and the MKT crossover as of next July.



Nothing is going to get settle because of the prejudice and obstinate you display.
 
Inzane said:
And you're not? My bias is no greater than yours appears to be.
Click to expand...
For the last three years, I've been involved in a little side work that involves visiting car dealerships of about all mainstream types. No exotics. I test about 4 different cars a month. Do the math. Until the last half of this year, each quarter, I'd do Cadillac, BMW, M-B, and Lexus back to back, often in the same day, reportin to the same company. Sometimes the company I report to is contracted by J.D. Powers, sometimes by an automaker. Other times, I'd hit one of those areas where ten or twelve different dealers are located along the same one-and-a-half mile stretch, and I'll do two GM brands, a Toyota, a Hyundai, a Nissan, an Infiniti, and Ford dealership in the same week.



Almost 150 different test drives over the last three years. When I make a comparison, it's from recent experience, not rehashing the same complaints. I'm paid to be objective.
 
Len, people have different tastes in ride, fit and finish, comfort and performance. I recently test drove the Caddy CTS, The MB 550 CLS, and the Lexus LS460. IMO, the CTS doesn't compare well to the LS 460. I didn't care for the harsh MB ride at all. Yet I grant you that my tastes may be entirely different than yours or others. I've been buying new cars every other year since 1964 and I've never ever seen a better paint job on any car than on the new Lexus 460. Absolutely zero orange peel. The paint looked like glass. The CTS paint was terrible. The LS had a very controlled and comfortable ride. A great highway curiser, IMHO. The CTS was quicker and had lots more horsepower but it got worse mileage. The CTS felt more sporty but the Lexus felt more luxurious. The LS was much quieter at highway speeds. IMO, the quality of the materials used inside and out seemed superior in the Lexus LS460. The LS was about $4k more expensive though. Yet what I find better might not be what another buyer thinks is better. It's good to have choice. I'd be interested in your evaluation of these vehicles as I'm considering this purchase.
 
jfelbab said:
Len, people have different tastes in ride, fit and finish, comfort and performance. I recently test drove the Caddy CTS, The MB 550 CLS, and the Lexus LS460. IMO, the CTS doesn't compare well to the LS 460. I didn't care for the harsh MB ride at all. Yet I grant you that my tastes may be entirely different than yours or others. I've been buying new cars every other year since 1964 and I've never ever seen a better paint job on any car than on the new Lexus 460. Absolutely zero orange peel. The paint looked like glass. The CTS paint was terrible. The LS had a very controlled and comfortable ride. A great highway curiser, IMHO. The CTS was quicker and had lots more horsepower but it got worse mileage. The CTS felt more sporty but the Lexus felt more luxurious. The LS was much quieter at highway speeds. IMO, the quality of the materials used inside and out seemed superior in the Lexus LS460. The LS was about $4k more expensive though. Yet what I find better might not be what another buyer thinks is better. It's good to have choice. I'd be interested in your evaluation of these vehicles as I'm considering this purchase.
Click to expand...
CTS isn't in the size class as a Lexus 460, and it supposed to be a sportier ride. In fact, the CTS competes with BMW 3 Series. LS460 is a comparable to the M-B CLS550, but I also like the Lexus better. What model year CTS did you test drive? I'm disappointed that you test drove one with such crappy paint. As far as it's crappy mileage - again, which model?
 
Len_A said:
CTS isn't in the size class as a Lexus 460, and it supposed to be a sportier ride. In fact, the CTS competes with BMW 3 Series. LS460 is a comparable to the M-B CLS550, but I also like the Lexus better. What model year CTS did you test drive? I'm disappointed that you test drove one with such crappy paint. As far as it's crappy mileage - again, which model?
Click to expand...



The model I test drove was the 2009 CTS V. It reawakened something I had long ago thought would be gone for good. The era of my youth was one of muscle cars with gobs of gut wrenching torque. The CTS was/is a muscle car in a luxury package. It is also quite attractively priced for the performance it delivers.



That said I think I've outgrown the need for the thrill of 0-60 speeds in the sub 5 second category. LOL.



To add to the thread on the bailouts here is a link to NASCAR owner Rick Hendricks that expresses my opinion well.



Hendrick talks bailout - FOX Sports Video on MSN
 
I agree with Hendricks on the Chrysler. Let Cerberus put their money in the pot. I can't recall another time in history that the federal government has been asked to fund a privately held company. Am I missing one?
 
jfelbab said:
The model I test drove was the 2009 CTS V. It reawakened something I had long ago thought would be gone for good. The era of my youth was one of muscle cars with gobs of gut wrenching torque. The CTS was/is a muscle car in a luxury package. It is also quite attractively priced for the performance it delivers.



That said I think I've outgrown the need for the thrill of 0-60 speeds in the sub 5 second category. LOL.



To add to the thread on the bailouts here is a link to NASCAR owner Rick Hendricks that expresses my opinion well.



Hendrick talks bailout - FOX Sports Video on MSN
Click to expand...
You pretty much nailed it with the CTS. If I were working, and in the market for a car, CTS would be on my list - I haven't out grown the boy racer thing completely. Of course, I'd insist that Kate Walsh come with the car, at least for a day. Or Two. Maybe a week...:drool:



The '09 handles quite well, too.



Good link on Rick Hendricks. He pretty much nails it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top