Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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Two) Find me another industry that, as a whole, touches as many business, and as many communities, as the auto industry, especially because of the retail side of the busines (the dealers) being in every state of the country.
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That would be the glass industry that started dieing back in late 06' and really went down hill and fast when the housing market bottomed and stayed there. We have been suffering for a long time and still are. Raises gone, Prophet sharing gone, increased insurance, jobs being cut/down sized. The largest glass dist closed back in May, they closed because the employees showed up to chained doors. We are now the largest glass dist in the SE and we are on one knee. I can only assume the glass industry on the other side of the U.S is falling as fast as we are. We only deal with residential/commercial glass retailers, and that group is getting smaller and smaller. The auto industry is huge but so is the glass industry.
 
Len_A said:
Only problem with Romney's plan is that not one dealer in the country has said they casn get customers into the showroom and sell them a car if the auto company whose brand they sell files for Chapter 11. The idiocy of all the "experts" and the TV talking heads keep missing the point. Customers won't buy the brand of a company in a formal C11 reorganization. It's not about comparing Circuit City to GM. You buy a computer or a TV from Circuit City, after a short time, it's HP or Toshiba you deal with.



The real question is if Hp or Toshiba filed for Chapter 11, could Circuit City or Best Buy sell Hp or Toshiba? You'd think the "experts" and the TV talking heads would understand that.
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Didn't Chrysler have a similar problem? I'm not saying I have the answer to that, but I listened to Romney on the radio last night, and I believe that the value of having a managed plan, with the government involvement in making sure the warranty is good, would help. But then again, that is a sticking point, for sure.



I want to see the loans made, but I want to see a reorg of the companies and their exec teams. I am sure there are good people there, but I when you are on a losing team, you've gotta make changes in the front office. Someone who has led a turnaround needs to be driving, not the guys who steered into the ditch. Even if it wasn't their fault, you've got to make the change. There is a different skill set and mentality required to make this successful. Someone with that understanding would know that he has to sell the Govt. and the public and the plan to get the funding, and then get employee buy in, cause heaven knows, you know what is going to hit the fan when they start asking for reduction in headcount and overhead costs.



I have some knowledge of the Steel industry and they faced similar challenges. Interesting comparison on how to run a company can be found by studying Nucor, and another newer company, Steel Dynamics. If you ever get a chance, read a book about a Nucor startup in Crawfordsville, IN, titled "American Steel". Great read about how American industry can compete and kick *** in a tough industry.



By the way, best of luck to you. I was unemployed for about 9 months a few years back and made a few bucks consulting here and there. It's a tough time to be looking. Best of luck to you and let's all remember our fellow citizen's in our prayers.
 
If the auto companies want to build support for the loans then they should start issuing press releases of things they are doing to cut costs. It worked for Iaccoca.



I am against the bailout. I lived through the UAL bankruptcy as an employee. Amazingly people people still flew United. The employees lost the most. Exec's still received bonuses and golden parachutes. They still managed to find a way to get rid of many 15+ year union employees including myself. I kept my pension but at a half rate since the Gov. took it over. 20 years with the company and thats what I got.



It will be tough for many folks but they will survive as I have.
 
Mr. Clean said:
From your stated source:
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Thanks for that - I must have gone right by that part. So much for Evelyn Wood Speed Reading diploma! ;) Michigan is above 6%, so we're at 13 weeks extension.
 
wytstang said:
That would be the glass industry that started dieing back in late 06' and really went down hill and fast when the housing market bottomed and stayed there. We have been suffering for a long time and still are. Raises gone, Prophet sharing gone, increased insurance, jobs being cut/down sized. The largest glass dist closed back in May, they closed because the employees showed up to chained doors. We are now the largest glass dist in the SE and we are on one knee. I can only assume the glass industry on the other side of the U.S is falling as fast as we are. We only deal with residential/commercial glass retailers, and that group is getting smaller and smaller. The auto industry is huge but so is the glass industry.
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And another part of glass industry taking a hit is the manufacturing dieing is the automotive glass production taking a hit from Detroit's problems. hat's how much these industries are intertwine. I used to call on Ford's Glass Division (in fact, one of my best friends from jr. and sr. high school was an engineer with Ford's Glass Division) plant in Dearborn. Their Nashville plant made architectural glass - my parent's home has replacement windows with Ford glass in them. I know Ford Dearborn Glass Plant was gone before Ford created Visteon, and I don't know if Nashville ever survived all the changes at Visteon.
 
dave40co said:
If the auto companies want to build support for the loans then they should start issuing press releases of things they are doing to cut costs. It worked for Iaccoca.



I am against the bailout. I lived through the UAL bankruptcy as an employee. Amazingly people people still flew United. The employees lost the most. Exec's still received bonuses and golden parachutes. They still managed to find a way to get rid of many 15+ year union employees including myself. I kept my pension but at a half rate since the Gov. took it over. 20 years with the company and thats what I got.



It will be tough for many folks but they will survive as I have.
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My cousin works for NWA here in Detroit, and I appreciate where you're coming from.



That said, flying an airline is not the same as buying a car. You buy a ticket for a flight, take the flight, and when it's over, your stake, as a customer, in that transaction is over.



You buy a car, your stake as a customer continues as long as you own it. You have warranty concerns - the deal provides the warranty service, but the auto maker pays for that warranty service. You have concerns about spare parts under warranty. While it's under warranty, you have to be concerned about OEM sheet metal for collision repairs. After warranty, availability of OEM parts will affect resale value.



I'm sorry, but it's not the same thing. And any further drop in customers threatens viability even more.



And you're 100% right - all the airline employees took it on the chin, and the execs still got their seven and eight figure pay. You're 100% right. And you may not have heard about it in Oceanside, but the UAW denounced the airline execs, and the bankruptcy's effects on you guys, big time. For all the good it did, and for what it's worth.



On the subject of press releases, they a;ready do them, with the results of where their restructuring plans are at the time of the release. So it's nothing they can't give the government.
 
Wow, just read this whole thread! All I can say is it doesn't matter a tinker's damn what we all think. But if it makes you feel better, at least that counts for something.
 
The 15% Solution





One possible approach to dealing with the auto crisis - The federal government should give any one who buys a fuel efficient car from the Big 3 a 15% rebate back on the selling price. This program could have an 18 month time limit.





The total of the rebate dollars might then constitute a loan the auto makers would have to pay back.



If effective, this solution would immediately jump start US auto makers by giving them a huge advantage over the competition while they work on the remaining legacy issues. Auto makers would stay employed and no money would go directly to the car makers.





The feds might also think about underwriting an extended warranty program for this period. Again, the total dollars to do so, could constitute a loan to the auto makers
 
citizen arcane said:
The 15% Solution





One possible approach to dealing with the auto crisis - The federal government should give any one who buys a fuel efficient car from the Big 3 a 15% rebate back on the selling price. This program could have an 18 month time limit.





The total of the rebate dollars might then constitute a loan the auto makers would have to pay back.



If effective, this solution would immediately jump start US auto makers by giving them a huge advantage over the competition while they work on the remaining legacy issues. Auto makers would stay employed and no money would go directly to the car makers.





The feds might also think about underwriting an extended warranty program for this period. Again, the total dollars to do so, could constitute a loan to the auto makers
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One thung is that due to the credit freeze that may not stimulate much sales
 
C'mon let's give 'em a chance...Ford is coming to market with Eco-boost engines, and the version that will be on the Ford Fiesta will beat Civic for fuel economy. The new Ford Fusion Hybrid beats Toyota’s hybrid Camry for fuel economy. The 2010 Ford Explorer with EcoBoost will beat the Toyota Hybrid Highlander on fuel economy. The Ford F Series pickup is more fuel efficient than the Toyota Tundra. The Chevy Volt will have an electric range of 40 miles, while Toyota’s will have a range of around 12 miles. Even today, The Honda Accord gets 22/31 mpg, while the Chevy Malibu gets 22/33. The Civic gets 26/34, while the Ford Focus gets 24/35. Ford’s ECOnetic Fiesta, a turb-charged diesel car launched in Europe this Fall is rated at about 65 mpg according to European fuel efficiency testing.
 
MotorCity said:
One thung is that due to the credit freeze that may not stimulate much sales
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That's supposed to be addressed in the bailout package for lending institutions though may not affect dealer's inhouse financing.
 
Apparently, contrary to the naysayers, I'm not the only one who thinks a GM, Ford, OR Chrysler bankruptcy filing will cause severe problems in the supplier community:



THE AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT



Cooper-Standard executive chairman outlines plight of supply chain



Robert Sherefkin

Automotive News

November 20, 2008 - 4:16 pm ET



DETROIT -- Auto parts executive James McElya said the bankruptcy of a major automaker would cause a chain reaction that would reach from suppliers down to the neighborhood diner, the barber and even the schools.



McElya told a congressional committee yesterday that a bankruptcy would cause "a chain reaction of unpaid payables with subsequent additional bankruptcies that will severely and negatively impact the entire sector."



McElya's comments were eclipsed in media reports by testimony from the Detroit 3 CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger. McElya was the only supplier leader to testify on the impact of the auto crisis on the supply chain.



"Today's auto industry," said McElya, executive chairman of Cooper Standard Holdings Inc. and its principal operating company, Cooper-Standard Automotive Inc., "is so interdependent such that it is economically impossible to separate the economic success of the suppliers from their manufacturer customers."



At the same time, suppliers must have an infusion of working capital to continue to operate, he said in testimony for a hearing before the House Financial Services Committee.



The committee held a hearing on legislation that would provide $25 billion in emergency federal loans to the Detroit 3 and possibly suppliers. The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs held a hearing on similar legislation Tuesday.



McElya also is chairman of the Motor and Equipment Manufacturers Association. The organization has urged Congress to pass legislation immediately that provides direct financial assistance to the automotive industry, including auto manufacturers and suppliers.



McElya said the dramatic and sudden contraction of the auto industry would also hurt transplant automakers. "Toyota, Honda and Nissan will likely have to close or limit production while waiting for new sources of supply to be developed."
 
SamIam said:
Len,



Am I to understand that now the T1 suppliers have their hands out?
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Looks that way. What did I post earlier, and I was called Chicken Little for posting it:



The way the automakers, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes, and BMW, rely on the network of suppliers, and the way most of those supplier are disproportionately dependent on GM, Ford, and Chrysler (or as I've been calling them, here in Detroit, The Three Stooges), auto manufacturing in North America is a house of cards, built on a foundation of sand. Pull a card or let the economic tide shift the sand around a little, and it all comes crashing down.



The naysayers will be seeing more and more of this coming from the suppliers, and will be seeing even some of the transplants react with extreme caution, if not panic in a few cases. Keep in mind, Delphi is still in Chapter 11, and hasn't been able to line up the financing to borrow enough to exit bankruptcy, since about March of this year - BEFORE the credit crunch. GM, Toyota, and Ford get a lot of electronics (and Ford's upcoming Fusion Hybrid gets it's electric motor) from Delphi, and GM pays Delphi a lot of money every month, money that gets automatically tied up in a Chapter 11 filing. Most of those parts, you don't find a new supplier for them in a month or two. Your supplier tanks, you in BIG trouble.
 
Ford are doing realy well in the UK, new models and are recruiting. The difference is smaller cars and diesel cars.



Ford offer one of the best diesel engines for most euro cars, a 4 cyl 1.6 turbo unit that does 83mpg, or about 74mpg for an auto. Thats why most europeans prefer to self shift.



Toyota are launching a family diesel that will do 100mpg that will seat 4 plus luggage. Not a truck but 100mpg, thats amazing.



I love America but a vehicle designed to carry 8 people used as a daily commute with one on board with a V8 is just daft, my company 1.8 Turbo Diesel Panel Van does over 50mpg.



I could solve Americas fuel problem in one, use diesel, it's not smelly and delivers 25% more economy.



My own car is a Volvo V40 1.9D, it does 52mpg, the 2.0i Petrol does 32mpg, plus my diesel is faster and delivers more torque, so better for towing. It can outrun my wifes 2.5 V6 Petrol. Only the petrol is faster once over 100mph, but who drives that fast.



I think it is about time you guys woke up to the super diesel engines we have in Europe.
 
Awsomeshine said:
I think it is about time you guys woke up to the super diesel engines we have in Europe.
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Here in the States taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Furthermore, Americans still associate diesel to clattering engines and the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers, even though the new "clean diesel" is clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.
 
isn't that socialism?

using public money to prop up poorly run companies whose executives have reaped profit even though they lost money?

doesn't this entitle the government a stake in the company?

then it becomes partially 'state' owned?



25% of the country already works for the government...now the private companies will be govenment funded to stay in business? it's madness...



we need to stop wasting money and prolonging the inevitable...

these companies are doomed to fail...

their time has passed...

let them fail and be reformed in a more sustainable fashion...

it's the American way...

don't waste the $$$$

they have been living off of our money (stock losses, ie, 401's, IRA's, etc.) for the last 10 years...

now, since we won't buy their junk we must support them with taxes?

and for nothing in return?

it's downright un-american
 
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