Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Lenny]

Yeah, the whole private jet thing was a little ridiculous. I may not think that the CEO's should be making anywhere near the salaries they do, but they still are the CEO's of multi-billion dollar companies and deserve to fly on the corporate jet; their time is valuable.



Besides, no one in congress complains about their CEO (W.) flying around on his private jet when the country is $10 trillion in debt.

The Detroit CEO's could have learned form the example of UAW president Ron Gettelfinger - not only does he fly commercial, he flies coach.

I think Air Force One is used for security purposes, not as a luxury. DUH!



Mike

True for the President, but what about Congress regularly flying around on the Air Force's fleet of business jets (i.e. private jets - Lear/Bombardier/Gulfstream luxury jets)? On junkets that are supposed to be for Congressional business, but they take their spouses and/or other family members for vacations (that are "tacked" on to teh "fact finding" trips). With you and me footing the bill.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I think Air Force One is used for security purposes, not as a luxury. DUH!

Sure, but it's also for speed and convenience. The president is a busy guy, and so is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corp. These companies are in trouble; if I was an employee or a stockholder, I'd want the CEO working on the problems, not standing on line two hours beforehand getting asked if anyone else packed his suitcase (and probably someone did, at least his wife...and then he would have been late to the congressional grilling because he was getting cavity-searched by the TSA).

 

[AeroCleanse]

Of course they should not bail out the car companies. If you can't make a product that competes, why should the government bail you out of your mistakes.

 

[Mr. Clean]

Following the recent events, I am growing more convinced that a government bailout of Detroit automakers is not a good idea. The so-called leaders of these groups show up asking for money in corporate jets and no detailed plans for how/what/when/where these funds will be used to turn these companies into profit centers. Their actions showed blatant arrogance and incompetence; not anything that should instill confidence in legislators and taxpayers that these funds would be repayed at all, much less in a timely fashion.



Isn't Chrysler now a privately owned company (Cerberus Capital)? Should the government be considering bailing out a privately held auto manufacturer? One which has already been bailed out once by the taxpayers.

 

[wytstang]

Nope the bail out is worthless, nothing short of a miracle is going to help them. That miracle needs to be low fuel cost. That $75 billion needs to go into finding a way to stabilize the fuel market in the U.S. With gas prices @$1.89 here I'm seeing more and more trucks/suv's on the road (all from the big 3). That is what the big 3 needs is a stable low fuel market. Without that they are going to sink no matter what. A bail out and no stabilization of the fuel market and we are just prolonging there demise (read:waste of money).

 

[Lenny]

Nope the bail out is worthless, nothing short of a miracle is going to help them. That miracle needs to be low fuel cost. That $75 billion needs to go into finding a way to stabilize the fuel market in the U.S. With gas prices @$1.89 here I'm seeing more and more trucks/suv's on the road (all from the big 3). That is what the big 3 needs is a stable low fuel market. Without that they are going to sink no matter what. A bail out and no stabilization of the fuel market and we are just prolonging there demise (read:waste of money).

$75 billion ? What $75 billion? Are you multiplying $25 by 3 or was that a typo?



The loan request is $25, to be split three ways.

 

[wytstang]

I thought it was $25 billion each?

 

[Lenny]

Following the recent events, I am growing more convinced that a government bailout of Detroit automakers is not a good idea. The so-called leaders of these groups show up asking for money in corporate jets and no detailed plans for how/what/when/where these funds will be used to turn these companies into profit centers. Their actions showed blatant arrogance and incompetence; not anything that should instill confidence in legislators and taxpayers that these funds would be repayed at all, much less in a timely fashion.



Isn't Chrysler now a privately owned company (Cerberus Capital)? Should the government be considering bailing out a privately held auto manufacturer? One which has already been bailed out once by the taxpayers.

Yea, right. and the rest of us who depend on them can go pound sand, right?



Metro Detroiters anxious, living on edge -Detroit Free Press 11/20/2008

From hairstyles to nachos, wedding photos to auto show parties -- all in doubt



Metro Detroiters endure life on edge | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

Elias-Porter, 53, has owned her salon in two locations near Ford Motor Co.'s Dearborn base for 21 years. Many of her clients have been with her from the beginning, she said. But as the Detroit Three have suffered, so, too, has her business.



"We used to get between 10 and 20 walk-in clients for the new hairdressers. We had one last week," she said.

Through the end of September, John Forte thought his Troy-based catering business was headed for a really good year.



Then Wall Street imploded. And now his Forte Balenger business will be lucky to finish just above break-even for the year. Next year looks worse, a lot worse.



...



Already, the automotive worries have dealt Forte a big hit. Normally January brings Forte's firm its busiest time of year as he caters major parties and corporate events during the North American International Auto Show. Last year, Forte Belanger hired 300 on-call workers for auto show-related parties, served 4,000 meals on 27,000 pieces of china, filled 10,000 glasses and checked 2,100 coats.



For the upcoming show in January, Forte Belanger has booked only about 8% of last year's business.

Think a restaurant owner in trendy Royal Oak might be immune to automotive anxiety?



Think again.



Tim Castaneda feels it on two fronts. His business, a hip and fairly inexpensive Mexican eatery called Zumba, is losing customers. At home, Castaneda's wife, an engineer at Chrysler LLC for 18 years, carries constant fear of job loss.



"I talk to 100 people a day," he said this week, as his roster of customers getting laid off from auto jobs seems to grow ever longer. "It has really, really affected me in the last two to three months," he said. "People really close to me have started getting laid off."



If the auto industry collapses, he doesn't know how he'll survive, said Castaneda, 44, of Troy, who has two children, one in college.

 

[SamIam]

Sure, but it's also for speed and convenience. The president is a busy guy, and so is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corp. These companies are in trouble; if I was an employee or a stockholder, I'd want the CEO working on the problems, not standing on line two hours beforehand getting asked if anyone else packed his suitcase (and probably someone did, at least his wife...and then he would have been late to the congressional grilling because he was getting cavity-searched by the TSA).

Come on, there is a huge difference between the President riding on Air Force One and and Larry, Curly and Moe flying a luxury business jet to Washington to ask for a hand out. If they had presented a plan, I would call it a bail out. They want a hand out



At the least they could have "jet pooled"

 

[Lenny]

Come on, there is a huge difference between the President riding on Air Force One and and Larry, Curly and Moe flying a luxury business jet to Washington to ask for a hand out. If they had presented a plan, I would call it a bail out. They want a hand out



At the least they could have "jet pooled"

Air Force One is a given. But a fleet of business jets, owned and maintained by the Air Force, that get used for any reason, usually "fact finding" trips, by members of Congress, paid for by the taxpayers? Members of Congress, who I already pointed out, enjoy better retirement health care and pension benefits than any of the taxpayers, again paid for by the taxpayers.

 

[Lenny]

I thought it was $25 billion each?

No, $25 Billion total, to be divided three ways, percentage to be determined by market share.

 

[Lenny]

Come on, there is a huge difference between the President riding on Air Force One and and Larry, Curly and Moe flying a luxury business jet to Washington to ask for a hand out. If they had presented a plan, I would call it a bail out. They want a hand out



At the least they could have "jet pooled"

They all have a plan, and the plans have been in implementation already, but the way all four of them, including UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, presented thing was half-assed to say the least.



I'm sitting around at home, trying to send out resumes, because I've been out of work for over a year, looking at the them droning on and on....and I've got several thoughts racing around my head.



One, I'm thinking...if I did this bad a job making what amounts to a sales presentation, I'd never have got twenty-five years experience under my belt. I'd have been bounced out on my @ss two decades ago, by the very auto company engineers, supervisors and skilled trades people I dealt with. God Almighty, have you guys ever seen such a poor public speaking job in your lives? Where the hell is Lee Iaccoca when we need him?



Two, I'm thinking as well...if all of us who depend on these buffoons to at least get a temporary safety net, and maybe see things through until 2010, then we all be in big trouble. Might as well think about renting a big f***ing trailer, empty the house and hand the keys over to the bank.



Three, I'm wondering what Australia would be like to live in. Because between these three companies screwing the pooch, yet again, Congress's reaction, and my fellow American's "Detroit car companies can go to hell" attitude, I'm not feeling real positive about things.

 

[Mr. Clean]

$25 billion is just the first go round (except of course for Chrysler). No one of the three is saying that there won't be further requests on the (very near) horizon.



The thread topic is whether the government should bailout the automakers. As a taxpayer, I don't want to loan money to an industry being run by the clueless and operated as anything other than a profit center. If this is a loan, then I want nothing less than at least a viable business plan whereby I can expect complete repayment of principal and interest.

...Yea, right. and the rest of us who depend on them can go pound sand, right?

...

LenA, you are not the first person to find yourself amongst the unemployed/underemployed. Others have found themselves "down-sized", "right-sized", "out sourced", "layed off" etc. and ad nauseum and never have I seen the amount "bail me and my company out" posts. Why do those in the auto industry seem to feel that they are entitled to their jobs moreso than others?



On another note, it sounds like Bush has moved to increase unemployment benefits by an additional 7 weeks and top of the existing 13 week extension.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Come on, there is a huge difference between the President riding on Air Force One and and Larry, Curly and Moe flying a luxury business jet to Washington to ask for a hand out.

I'm not denying that these particular CEO's are bozos, but the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company SHOULD be afforded the treatment of a private jet. Whether the recent crop of CEO's has tarnished thier brand so much that they have lost the respect that they should have is another story.

 

[Lenny]

$25 billion is just the first go round (except of course for Chrysler). No one of the three is saying that there won't be further requests on the (very near) horizon.



The thread topic is whether the government should bailout the automakers. As a taxpayer, I don't want to loan money to an industry being run by the clueless and operated as anything other than a profit center. If this is a loan, then I want nothing less than at least a viable business plan whereby I can expect complete repayment of principal and interest.







LenA, you are not the first person to find yourself amongst the unemployed/underemployed. Others have found themselves "down-sized", "right-sized", "out sourced", "layed off" etc. and ad nauseum and never have I seen the amount "bail me and my company out" posts. Why do those in the auto industry seem to feel that they are entitled to their jobs more so than others?



On another note, it sounds like Bush has moved to increase unemployment benefits by an additional 7 weeks and top of the existing 13 week extension.

One) Damn right there had better be a detailed plan for viability. I'm still wondering why these corporate "leaders" didn't at least bring copies of what they already each told the press and their stockholders months and even YEARS ago, with a detailed explanation on where they were in their restructuring time line. Even Chrysler has had to release that information through Daimler, who still owns 18% of Chrysler and is, them selves, still publicly held. Christ, it would take me under four ours to find the information on the internet, and through my Automotive News account, and compile a better presentation than all four of them gave.



Two) Find me another industry that, as a whole, touches as many business, and as many communities, as the auto industry, especially because of the retail side of the busines (the dealers) being in every state of the country.



It's not a question of being entitled. It's a question of being the collateral damage of executive decisions that none of us had a hand in, most of us didn't agree with with, and watching the real culprits behind the piss poor decisions walk away with seven & eight figure incomes over multiple years, while the rest of us pay the price for their decisions.



That's what we are, not just me. The janitorial service employee who lost his job because a thirty year old dealership closed. The industrial supply distributor clerk downsized because another plant closed. The restaurant owner going out of business. The shopping mall with ever growing numbers of empty store fronts. Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, Louisville, Atlanta, Janesville, Wilmington, Rochester - just a small sample.



Collateral damage. And what we get from a lot of people is condescension. It gets frustrating.



As to the unemployment, I read another thirteen weeks, not seven Three months. My Way News - Bush signs jobless benefits extension Every little bit helps I guess.

 

[SamIam]

Len,



I agree regarding Congress and their junkets. Beyond the pale.



I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an investor led revolution to dump these guys. Waggoner has been a failure since given the job. Nardelli never should have gotten the job, who the heck did he suck up to, and I guess i know little about Mulalley, other than he and Billy haven't been able to do much for Ford, other than watch them fail. How can these guys come into a meeting and not SELL their plan. Face it, if these guys came up to you on the street and asked for a buck for a cup of joe, you'd probably tell them no. I just don't see that they GET IT.



I have a father in law who founded a multi billion dollar public company. He is now CEO and COB. He cancelled his vacation to Hawaii, pissing off his travel companion, because he felt in this economy, he didn't want to send the wrong message to the employees. Didn't Iacocca work for a buck during the Chrysler bailout? We all know he made a killing on stock, but he understood he needed to share the pain.



Whatever plan they may have hasn't worked up till now, and they can't sell anyone on the idea that it will ever work. I don't want to see them go out, I understand the ramifications it will have. But you can't continue to pump money into companies with such poor leadership and strategy.



I think ultimately, Romney's outline would probably be the best starting point. However, I think in the end, the Democrats owe the UAW and the deal will get done. No way Obama goes into office as millions of union workers get dumped and gets laid at the feet of the Democrat legislature.

 

[Lenny]

LenA, you are not the first person to find yourself amongst the unemployed/underemployed. Others have found themselves "down-sized", "right-sized", "out sourced", "layed off" etc. and ad nauseum and never have I seen the amount "bail me and my company out" posts. Why do those in the auto industry seem to feel that they are entitled to their jobs moreso than others?



On another note, it sounds like Bush has moved to increase unemployment benefits by an additional 7 weeks and top of the existing 13 week extension.

And for your information, since 2000, the number of direct auto company and tier one and tier two supplier jobs lost already numbers in the hundreds of thousands, with the growth in jobs by the transplants significantly less - under 50,000 since 2000., for a net loss of jobs. That doesn't include the service industry losses from people who have lost jobs and businesses as these companies have closed nearby plants. Name another industry that had downsized that many people.

 

[Lenny]

Len,



I agree regarding Congress and their junkets. Beyond the pale.



I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an investor led revolution to dump these guys. Waggoner has been a failure since given the job. Nardelli never should have gotten the job, who the heck did he suck up to, and I guess i know little about Mulalley, other than he and Billy haven't been able to do much for Ford, other than watch them fail. How can these guys come into a meeting and not SELL their plan. Face it, if these guys came up to you on the street and asked for a buck for a cup of joe, you'd probably tell them no. I just don't see that they GET IT.



I have a father in law who founded a multi billion dollar public company. He is now CEO and COB. He cancelled his vacation to Hawaii, pissing off his travel companion, because he felt in this economy, he didn't want to send the wrong message to the

employees. Didn't Iacocca work for a buck during the Chrysler bailout? We all know he made a killing on stock, but he understood he needed to share the pain.







Whatever plan they may have hasn't worked up till now, and they can't sell anyone on the idea that it will ever work. I don't want to see them go out, I understand the ramifications it will have. But you can't continue to pump money into companies with such poor leadership and strategy.



I think ultimately, Romney's outline would probably be the best starting point. However, I think in the end, the Democrats owe the UAW and the deal will get done. No way Obama goes into office as millions of union workers get dumped and gets laid at the feet of the Democrat legislature.

SamIam, that's what I'm asking - how can these guys not come prepared?



And you're 100% on point about Iaccoca. 100%



I want the loans made, but I'd have no problem with booting these guys out as a condition.



Only problem with Romney's plan is that not one dealer in the country has said they casn get customers into the showroom and sell them a car if the auto company whose brand they sell files for Chapter 11. The idiocy of all the "experts" and the TV talking heads keep missing the point. Customers won't buy the brand of a company in a formal C11 reorganization. It's not about comparing Circuit City to GM. You buy a computer or a TV from Circuit City, after a short time, it's HP or Toshiba you deal with.



The real question is if Hp or Toshiba filed for Chapter 11, could Circuit City or Best Buy sell Hp or Toshiba? You'd think the "experts" and the TV talking heads would understand that.

 

[SamIam]

I'm not denying that these particular CEO's are bozos, but the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company SHOULD be afforded the treatment of a private jet. Whether the recent crop of CEO's has tarnished thier brand so much that they have lost the respect that they should have is another story.

CEO's who oversee the bankruptcy of their companies, and who are BEGGING for a public bailout should be afforded NO such treatment. Their ultimate job is to drive profitability. When they are losing money, their job is to cut spending, including T&E, the 2nd largest controllable expense any company has and to set an example for the worker on the floor who is going to either lose his job or give back a portion of his pay to keep his job.



Face it, if they had flown 1st class or even all went on one private jet, and shown up driving a Volt,(or hybrid Escalade), a hybrid Ford Escape, and a prototype Chrysler EV, they could have shown their understanding the depth of the problem and the solutions they are currently working on. But they didn't, did they.



Respect for corporate employees should be reserved for those who have earned it.



i see no parallel in respecting the Office of the President of the United States vs the officer of a publicly held company solely based on their position.

 

[Mr. Clean]

...

As to the unemployment, I read another thirteen weeks, not seven Three months. My Way News - Bush signs jobless benefits extension Every little bit helps I guess.

From your stated source:

...The legislation as approved would provide seven additional weeks of payments to people who have exhausted their benefits or will exhaust them soon. Those in states where the unemployment rate is above 6 percent would be entitled to an additional 13 weeks above the 26 weeks of regular benefits. Benefit checks average about $300 a week nationwide.

...