Should the government bail-out include domestic automakers?

[Lenny]

For a mere 3 months of normal Iraq spending, I would rather waste my money here than give it to Iraq and Halliburton.

I hadn't even thought of it in those terms. Good point.

 

[MSOsr]

For a mere 3 months of normal Iraq spending, I would rather waste my money here than give it to Iraq and Halliburton.

Are you just pointing out the small amount of money we're talking about lending the Big 3? Or are you talking about taking the money going to the war and giving it to the Big 3, even if it causes us to lose the advantage we've gained to date? Make 4000 GI deaths meaningless? Just to save $?



I don't want to misinterpret your post.





Mike

 

[Lenny]

Are you just pointing out the small amount of money we're talking about lending the Big 3? Or are you talking about taking the money going to the war and giving it to the Big 3, even if it causes us to lose the advantage we've gained to date? Make 4000 GI deaths meaningless? Just to save $?



I don't want to misinterpret your post.





Mike

I think Bunky is talking about how comparatively small the amount of loan money requested is, in comparison to the amount we're spending on the war in Iraq.No one is talking about dishonoring our servicemen and women in any way.



I will say that it's frustrating to see billions of dollars go to rebuilding Iraq, when the Iraqi's have about a $100 billion surplus from selling oil, and then regardless of who is responsible for what company's past mistakes, we have some of our fellow Americans get uppity about preventing other Americans from becoming unemployed.

 

[MSOsr]

The dollars don't bother me so much; it's just the thought of them being spent "the way we've always done it". That's why I thought a bankruptcy trustee or someone similar should be on board to make sure the money is being used wisely.



What do you think about loaning the money to the Big 3 and having Mitt Romney be in charge of authorizing spending of the money/contracts? Didn't he bring Staples back from the dead?





Mike

 

[Lenny]

The dollars don't bother me so much; it's just the thought of them being spent "the way we've always done it". That's why I thought a bankruptcy trustee or someone similar should be on board to make sure the money is being used wisely.



What do you think about loaning the money to the Big 3 and having Mitt Romney be in charge of authorizing spending of the money/contracts? Didn't he bring Staples back from the dead?





Mike

Absolutely, Mitt Romney would be a great choice. I don't remember about Staples, but I do remember his work on the winter Olympics.



The Detroit 3 have not had a case of "the way we've always done it" in so long, I can't even remember. Every year there are new programs to cut non-vehicle related costs, new programs partnering with their suppliers, etc.



The way new product is coming in at Ford, I know they don't have a case of "the way we've always done it".

 

[MSOsr]

I just hope GM releases the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V soon! People are waiting!



Apparently there are some QC issues they want to straighten out before releasing the 3800 or so cars that have been completed.



Mike

 

[soccerjunky]

My favorite reviews of a toyota or nissan or whatever jap car



YouTube - Jeremy Clarkson - Chapter 3 - Prius Shootout



YouTube - Top Gear Toyota Prius

 

[Mark77]

Heh those are fun videos, Top Gear is always entertaining I am not too sure but I think all 3 companies have had economical problems for many years now, and of course the situation now doesn't make it any better. What will they do to change their strategies?

 

[Lenny]

Metro Detroiters anxious, living on edge -Detroit Free Press

From hairstyles to nachos, wedding photos to auto show parties -- all in doubt



Metro Detroiters anxious, living on edge | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

Elias-Porter, 53, has owned her salon in two locations near Ford Motor Co.'s Dearborn base for 21 years. Many of her clients have been with her from the beginning, she said. But as the Detroit Three have suffered, so, too, has her business.



"We used to get between 10 and 20 walk-in clients for the new hairdressers. We had one last week," she said.

Through the end of September, John Forte thought his Troy-based catering business was headed for a really good year.



Then Wall Street imploded. And now his Forte Balenger business will be lucky to finish just above break-even for the year. Next year looks worse, a lot worse.



...



Already, the automotive worries have dealt Forte a big hit. Normally January brings Forte's firm its busiest time of year as he caters major parties and corporate events during the North American International Auto Show. Last year, Forte Belanger hired 300 on-call workers for auto show-related parties, served 4,000 meals on 27,000 pieces of china, filled 10,000 glasses and checked 2,100 coats.



For the upcoming show in January, Forte Belanger has booked only about 8% of last year's business.

Think a restaurant owner in trendy Royal Oak might be immune to automotive anxiety?



Think again.



Tim Castaneda feels it on two fronts. His business, a hip and fairly inexpensive Mexican eatery called Zumba, is losing customers. At home, Castaneda's wife, an engineer at Chrysler LLC for 18 years, carries constant fear of job loss.



"I talk to 100 people a day," he said this week, as his roster of customers getting laid off from auto jobs seems to grow ever longer. "It has really, really affected me in the last two to three months," he said. "People really close to me have started getting laid off."



If the auto industry collapses, he doesn't know how he'll survive, said Castaneda, 44, of Troy, who has two children, one in college.

 

[Lenny]

Big 3 troubles rumble through L.A. show - The Detroit News



Big 3 troubles rumble through L.A. show | The Detroit News | detnews.com

Even Consumer Reports chimed in on the bailout hearings on a day it is typically filled with talk about new product quality.



"Consumer Reports has concerns about letting domestic automakers fail," the magazine's publisher, Consumers Union, said in a written statement. "The loss of any major auto manufacturer would leave consumers with fewer choices and the industry with less competition and innovation, particularly at a transitional time when the industry is pursuing alternative energy technology. Moreover, the impact of losing a domestic automaker on the U.S. economy and jobs could be severe."

 

[SamIam]

The Detroit 3 have not had a case of "the way we've always done it" in so long, I can't even remember. Every year there are new programs to cut non-vehicle related costs, new programs partnering with their suppliers, etc.



The way new product is coming in at Ford, I know they don't have a case of "the way we've always done it".

The fact that the CEO's are showing up on private jets, costing $20K to fly them toWashington, where they are asking the government to write them a blank check, leaves me speechless. After seeing the public outcry over AIG and their spa visits, their travel mode is either the height of arrogance or stupiditiy. Either way, it seems they are the executives to lead this turnaround.



Also, in regards to "the way we've always done it", it seems to me that a private jet fleet is a very large non-vehicle related cost. If you are going to run out of money in a few months, don't you think the fleet should have been gone long ago?



I personally don't like the idea of them going bankrupt, but you also can't throw money at companies with leaders who don't understand the message they are sending when they show up in private jets. One of the reasons that Iacocca was successful in the Chrysler reorg was that he understood not only the organizational changes needed, but also the PR/political effort needed. When he came on TV and talked about what they were going to do, he drove sales and confidence that he had a plan. Rick Waggoner could never pull that off, especially now.



I also sell to T1, T2 and T3 suppliers. I understand the way that the Big 3 have leaned on them to drive costs down. I don't see suppliers being able to make up the difference in production costs needed to make the Big 3 competitive. They've got to get out from under union agreements and real estate contracts that are driving up costs. And repeatedly showing the Volt doesn't prove that they have a plan to become profitable.



I agree, someone who has led a turnaround is needed at each of the Big 3. Waggoner has been a failure at GM, Nardelli almost bankrupted Home Depot. Mulally of Ford, I don't know much about, but he's been there for, what, 3 years, and things haven't seemed to improve much.



That's my .02.

 

[Lenny]

The fact that the CEO's are showing up on private jets, costing $20K to fly them toWashington, where they are asking the government to write them a blank check, leaves me speechless. After seeing the public outcry over AIG and their spa visits, their travel mode is either the height of arrogance or stupiditiy. Either way, it seems they are the executives to lead this turnaround.



Also, in regards to "the way we've always done it", it seems to me that a private jet fleet is a very large non-vehicle related cost. If you are going to run out of money in a few months, don't you think the fleet should have been gone long ago?



I personally don't like the idea of them going bankrupt, but you also can't throw money at companies with leaders who don't understand the message they are sending when they show up in private jets. One of the reasons that Iacocca was successful in the Chrysler reorg was that he understood not only the organizational changes needed, but also the PR/political effort needed. When he came on TV and talked about what they were going to do, he drove sales and confidence that he had a plan. Rick Waggoner could never pull that off, especially now.



I also sell to T1, T2 and T3 suppliers. I understand the way that the Big 3 have leaned on them to drive costs down. I don't see suppliers being able to make up the difference in production costs needed to make the Big 3 competitive. They've got to get out from under union agreements and real estate contracts that are driving up costs. And repeatedly showing the Volt doesn't prove that they have a plan to become profitable.



I agree, someone who has led a turnaround is needed at each of the Big 3. Waggoner has been a failure at GM, Nardelli almost bankrupted Home Depot. Mulally of Ford, I don't know much about, but he's been there for, what, 3 years, and things haven't seemed to improve much.



That's my .02.

The three CEO's had the collective PR skills of a turnip. Nardelli in front of the Senate committee, and Mulally in front of the House, barely touched on how inter-dependent all of the automakers are with the suppliers. Nice sales job. Not.



And things just got worse. Henry Waxmam unseated John Dingell, a long time auto industry ally, on the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

 

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

The fact that the CEO's are showing up on private jets, costing $20K to fly them toWashington, where they are asking the government to write them a blank check, leaves me speechless. .

I would have to agree with you

Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., has unseated Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., longtime auto industry ally in Congress, as chairman of the powerful House Energy and Commerce Committee, which handles much industry-related legislation. MORE TO COME

This cant be good for us

 

[Lenny]

I would have to agree with you









This cant be good for us

no kidding

 

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

Compromise reached in Senate on auto bailout



AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

12:48 pm U.S. ET | Nov. 20





Key members of the U.S. Senate have reached a bipartisan deal to fund a rescue package for the Detroit 3, according to a spokesman for U.S. Sen. Carl Levin. It remains unclear whether the senators have enough votes or when the matter will be taken up. It's also unclear if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has signed on to the compromise. A draft of the compromise was being worked on by Levin, D-Mich., and Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Mo., among others



Bond and Sen. George Voinovich, R-Ohio, with White House support, on Wednesday introduced legislation that would redirect $25 billion in loans to the auto industry as bridge loans to the Detroit 3 automakers. The original intent of the loans was to enable automakers and suppliers to retool to build more fuel-efficient vehicles.



Democratic leaders in Congress have resisted using those funds, instead seeking money from the recently approved $700 billion banking bailout legislation.



Levin and other auto state senators are expected to reveal terms of the compromise at a 2:30 p.m. press conference today on Capitol Hill.



There was no word about any similar activity in the House of Representatives.



The CEOs of the Detroit 3 are asking for $25 billion in federal funds to see the automakers through a cash crisis.



Still many hurdles



Even with a deal among Senate negotiators, the legislation faces hurdles. There would have to be agreement among all 100 senators, which is rare, to allow the bill to come to a quick vote in the Senate.



If that agreement is not reached, the earliest a vote might come is on Saturday and it was unclear if lawmakers would stay in Washington that long ahead of the Nov. 27 Thanksgiving holiday.



Plus, any bill likely would need at least 60 votes to overcome anticipated procedural hurdles by opponents.



Also unclear is whether the House of Representatives would stay in session late this week.



Another possibility is a vote on an auto bill sometime after the Thanksgiving holiday. Earlier this week, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi ruled out a post-holiday session. But Reid said he would talk to Pelosi later today about having another short work session.



Reid and Pelosi are scheduled to meet later today to discuss timing of legislation.



House Democratic support is crucial for passing any compromise.

 

[Lenny]

From MarketWatch.com (LINK HERE} ):



Aid plan for Big Three falters in Congress

Senate Majority Leader says auto companies need to submit a plan





By Robert Schroeder, MarketWatch

Last update: 2:46 p.m. EST Nov. 20, 2008

Comments: 432

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Democratic leaders said Thursday there is no deal on aid yet for the Big Three U.S. automakers, and asked the chief executives of those companies to return to Congress with concrete plans on how they would use federal funds to turn their companies around before getting any money from Washington.

"Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., at a press conference.



GM 2.96, +0.17, +6.1%) and Chrysler LLC should submit a plan by Dec. 2. Reid said Congress would return the week of Dec. 8 if lawmakers get plans from the automakers that would return viability and sustainability to the industry.

The Democratic leaders spoke after a small bipartisan group of lawmakers reached a deal among themselves to buoy the industry.

But Reid said there weren't enough votes in the Senate or House to pass that compromise.



"Unfortunately, the sad reality is that no one has come up with a plan that can pass the House and the Senate and get signed by President Bush," said Reid.



Democrats have sought $25 billion in new loans for Ford, General Motors and Chrysler, but the White House and Republicans want the Big Three to tap into a previously approved $25 billion Energy Department loan program aimed at helping the companies retool.

 

[Deep Gloss Auto Salon]

Bailout compromise plan put on ice, but hope remains



Harry Stoffer

Automotive News

November 20, 2008 - 12:48 pm ET

UPDATED: 11/20/08 2:50 p.m. EST





WASHINGTON -- Democratic leaders of Congress today rejected a proposed bipartisan compromise that would have provided $25 billion in emergency federal aid to the Detroit 3.



Sens. Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow, both Michigan Democrats, announced this afternoon that they were signing onto a Republican proposal to redirect $25 billion in loans aimed at helping automakers build more fuel-efficient vehicles. Instead, those funds would provide bridge loans to the Detroit 3 to help them address fiscal crises.



But before a news conference announcing that compromise, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and seven other Democratic leaders entered the room in which the event was to be held. They said they did not support the proposal.



"It's their agreement," Reid said of the compromise's supporters.



During an afternoon news conference, Levin and other compromise supporters said they were pleased with developing a bipartisan plan and said they still were hopeful a deal could be completed in December.



Democratic leaders support carving out $25 billion in loans to the Detroit 3 from the $700 billion federal bailout fund for financial institutions. President George W. Bush and GOP lawmakers have rejected that approach.



Reid said the CEOs of the Detroit 3, who testified before House and Senate committees this week, did not convince Congress that their companies could be made viable with additional aid.



He said he would ask the automakers to submit plans by Dec. 2 detailing how they would use more federal money. Reid said he would look for "accountability and viability."



Added Pelosi: "Until they show us a plan, we can't show them the money."



The Senate Banking Committee and House Financial Services Committee, which held this week's hearings, would hold further hearings the week of Dec. 8 to consider the Detroit 3 plans, Reid said. After that, he said, the full House and Senate could consider further aid legislation.



While Pelosi also expressed doubt that further federal aid would make the Detroit 3 viable, she rejected suggestions that the companies should file for bankruptcy protection.

 

[Lenny]

A lot was made, by the media and others, about the use of private luxury jets by the CEO's of GM, Ford, and Chrysler. While acknowledging the boneheaded move by the Detroit Three's CEO's, in flying to Washington, DC in three separate corporate luxury jets, to make their case for a bridge loan I want to point something out:



As previously noted by some in the media, the Lehman Brother/AIG clowns haven't given up their fleet of private jets either, nor were they taken to task over flying to DC in their jets, when testifying before Congress. And don't forget the "distinguished" members of Congress who b*tched about the private jets, are part of a group of elected officials, who as a group, regularly fly on junkets, aboard the Air Force's fleet of Lear/Bombardier/Gulfstream luxury jets, while racking up their eligibility for the nations best retiree health care and pensions. All courtesy of the American taxpayer. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.



And to make political points, they're willing to risk the futures of the millions of us who depend on the Big Three. Including guys like me.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Yeah, the whole private jet thing was a little ridiculous. I may not think that the CEO's should be making anywhere near the salaries they do, but they still are the CEO's of multi-billion dollar companies and deserve to fly on the corporate jet; their time is valuable.



Besides, no one in congress complains about their CEO (W.) flying around on his private jet when the country is $10 trillion in debt.

 

[MSOsr]

Besides, no one in congress complains about their CEO (W.) flying around on his private jet when the country is $10 trillion in debt.

I think Air Force One is used for security purposes, not as a luxury. DUH!



Mike