Rust: potency indoor vs outdoor in salted-winters?

B

BMWWW

New member
Hi folks,



Long-time detailing-graduate from Autopia-U. :)



A particular question came about before I slept last night. I recall reading that rust usually isn't 'active'-persay when the weather is below x*C (or was it freezing?), but in any case, winters here in Canada mean two things: sub-zero weather and salt. Lots of salt.



That is unless you have a nice cozy insulated garage. Now, in order to escape harsh mornings, we always go through a fall-garage-cleanup so that both cars can be parked inside the insulated garage. Oftentimes, the garage may dip a few degrees above freezing inside the garage from both car's residual engine heat. Is the 'luxury' of an insulated garage going to bite me back 5-10years from now? (both cars are rust-proofed, but the undercarriages never escape and emerge 100% rust-free)



To further the question, I pretty much fund a crusade against inefficiency in the garage (thresholds, caulking, ect), but if we go one step further with metal doors, maintaining consistent above freezing-temps is a real possibility--would doing so further rust's chances of showing face?



Fingers crossed that simply leaving it in the butt-numbing outdoors isn't the best thing to do.



Thanks in advance!
 
Actually leaving them in the butt-numbing cold is best.

Heat activates the corrosives, melts any ice, makes a better "battery"out of the car's metal.

What is worse is if your state is using magnesium cloride spray on the roads.

It is much more corrosive than the old "salt" used.

Are they "really rust proofed", by that I mean a true rust inhibitor was fogged into all the body's cavaties, one that meets or exceeds the ASTM-117B test standard?

Or did some dealer put on and inferior "undercoat" material and sell it is "rust proofing'?

Most undercoatings actually contribute to rusting in a couple years..They do what we in the industry refer to as "pocketing" as the solvents evaporate and then crack, pulling a way from the underbody, trapping corrosives against the metal.

A rust inhibitor is a combination of micro waxes, and is tan in color.

It must be "fogged" inside of the cavatiy panels, no holes need to be drilled, which would break the bond of the ecoat where drilled and then corrosion can take place where metal is bare.

Grumpy
 
:(



"rust-proofing" isn't the described fogging process. It's the typical, run-of-the-mill, <$200 job where they spray, squirt, and .... all over the underbody and injected into panels.



Grumpy, got a grumpy club I can join? :(
 
Where are you located?

Did they give you a written warranty, so we know what "brand" was applied?

Let me know.

We got Grumpy's Garage and Grumpy's Pub, Grumpy's Outdoor Imbibbing Patio,which club do you want to join?

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Where are you located?

Did they give you a written warranty, so we know what "brand" was applied?

Let me know.

We got Grumpy's Garage and Grumpy's Pub, Grumpy's Outdoor Imbibbing Patio,which club do you want to join?

Grumpy
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Toronto, and likely Krown or a similar company.

KROWN RUST CONTROL
 
OK, know them well.

They have been around in Canada for years.

Notice that if they apply their rust inhibitor, they drill holes.

The product is very runny, so it drips out of the car, but does leave some protection.

It does not meet the ASTM-117B standard, at least as of 3 years ago.

They may have done a formula change since then, but who knows.

We make the products marketed by Ford and Chrylser, plus the company (which I retired from 3 years ago) is the go to product for any federal recalls for corrosion by Mazda, Hyundia, Kia, and others.

You have some protection, it's not that bad of a product line.

Grumpy
 
BMWWW:

Your question about rust formation and garages is one of great concern to all who drive their vehicles in the winter on roads where salt is used as a de-icer. Here in the upper Midwest, if it snows, salt is used for to provide the needed safety to drivers. But the effects on our vehicles is the tradeoff we make to keep us safe.



Gumpy's assessement is dead-accruate: Higher temperatures increase the rust-producing effects of the salt-water. I'm not a chemistry major and cannot explain how it happens, but EVERYONE can see the effects it causes on vehicles.



Those who think a HEATED garage is the best thing for their cars in the winter are poorly informed. Unless a salt-encrusted car is throroughly wash of the salt, it will start forming rust quicker than its counterpart that is kept in an unheated/unattached garage. The reason that cars kept in a heated garage seem to last long is that owners of heated garages tend to keep better care of their cars because thay have the economic means to do so. They take them to the car wash weekly in the winter or have them professionally detailed. The other reason is that they don't own the same vehicle for more than 7 years. ANY car driven year-round here in the upper Midwest will begin to show some signs of rust, like in lower door jam corners or wheel-well fender lips after 7 years. Like I said, you'd have to wash the car religiously after driving it on salted roads to keep this from happening.



I knew of one mechanic who poured heavy-weight motor oil in a 60's Ford Falcon pannels and seams to keep it from rusting. Did it work? Yes, but again, he did it every year in late fall and he didn't drive tha car that much in the winter on bad-weather days. The car ended up a dealer's showroom as part of his collection as an unrestored original condition. No, it wasn't in museum or concours condition, but it was one of the few daily drivers from the upper Midwest that survived from the otherwise rust-prone cars of that era.



My point is you are going to have to take care of your car in the winter and your efforts by having it rust-proofed are a good start. But that will not guarantee that it will STAY rust-free. The longer you own it and drive it on salted roads in the winter, the more likelyhood of it rusting. You cannot stop the inevitable.
 
Iron (or steel) rusting is an example of corrosion, which is an electrochemical process Rust is the common name for a very common compound, iron oxide. Iron oxide, the chemical Fe2O3, is common because iron combines very readily with oxygen, so readily in fact, that pure iron is only rarely found in nature. For iron to become iron oxide (FeO), three things are required: the iron itself, moisture and oxygen.



Dry salt is inert but when you add heat acts it acts as a catalyst that accelerates the corrosive effects of the moisture and oxygen





[u]http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/137860-corrosion-prevention-treatment.html [/u]
 
Just FWIW, I live in an area that gets serious winter weather. My year-round beaters get parked in a heated (at least to some extent, always above freezing) garage. As long as the vehicles were built right (that excludes POS stuff like my Mazda MPV!), they don't rust out.



I *do* usually perform some careful DIY rust proofing (got some great stuff from Ron Ketcham, and I don't do it the wrong way ;) ) but even when I don't, just washing everything thoroughly helps keep corrosion to a minimum (and yeah, I keep most of my vehicles a good long time).



Example: my '93 Audi V8 is rust-free even though it's been "the winter car" (for both the original owner and me) since new and has always been kept in a heated garage. Heh heh, I mention that one so nobody comes back with "aw...your Audis are all aluminum"; that one's not ;)



Before that, I had a 20-some year old Volvo wagon that stayed nice under the same conditions. It *can* be done.



But that solution of "washing things thoroughly" might be a stumbling block for most people; I spend the first hour or so of every wash on the undercarriage and other areas that are usually out of sight/out of mind. That "first hour" description is pretty accurate, though it can often take a bit longer than that.
 
Ever notice that "tan sticky" stuff around some areas of flanges, etc?

Back then Audi and until around the mid 90's, Volvo applied the correct rust inhibitor wax to all interior cavaties.

Which would explain why you see so little corrosion on those vehicles.

The majority of vehicle manufacturers today, do "not" apply the fogged in rust inhibitor waxes, cost too much and they depend on

the "word" of their paint suppliers that the paint type products will hold off corrosion for 3 to 5 years.

Get it through the warranty period and sell a new vehicle to folks.

Hello!

Doesn't always do such, now does it?

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Ever notice that "tan sticky" stuff around some areas of flanges, etc?

Back then Audi and until around the mid 90's, Volvo applied the correct rust inhibitor wax to all interior cavaties.

Which would explain why you see so little corrosion on those vehicles...
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Gee, I cleaned off (any visible excess of) that stuff so long ago that I'd forgotten all about it! There was a [boat]-load of it on the e36 BMW though, and yeah, that car had also remained rust-free though many winters (as did my older Benzes).



That's the kind of protection I try to replicate on other vehicles (like my GM SUVs), with what I consider good results. There are some really nice (i.e., user-friendly, Accumulator-proof) products available these days that make this pretty easy once you gain access. E.g., (besides the stuff from ValuGard ;) ) Eastwood has a newer one made for doing the inside of frame rails that's nice and thin, gets into the tight spots and doesn't tend to create those problematic "moisture retention" issues. Their stuff seems to really neutralize any (minimal) existing rust too.



Who knows, had I done this kind of thing to the MPV, maybe the build-quality shortcomings might not have become so serious...though from what you told me, that front-right door seam was probably doomed from the git-go. Might've slowed things down though :nixweiss And don't get me going on trying to get corrosion-warranty satsifaction out of Mazda...gee, let's see if I ever buy another vehicle from *those* [individuals] :grinno:
 
The one my old company sells and private labels for Chrysler and Ford "displaces" any mositure present on the metal.

As far as "thin", not good, sort of like 3M Rust Fighter, you need at least three coats to get close to one that is up to ASTM-117B

specs.

With the gun and wands that ValuGard sells, plus the manual now available, it's not hard to get to all areas, no drilling, etc.

The "fogging" of the product is important, as it "seeks out" bare metal, etc, enters any seams, flanges, etc and is there for years and years.

Before I retired, we sourced as less expensive gun system than the Sata. Made in China, this new gun does just fine.

Shipped hundreds of them to Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, etc dealers in a couple of years to address major corrosion concerns.

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham- I'm guessing that the OK older gun is the one you suggested I buy (harbor freight? eh, I forget where I got it or what the brand was). My wand/attachment selection is pretty limited and I kinda wish I had the long thin ones I see in pix on the AutoInt site :think:



But I don't think I'm gonna overkill this bu upgrading as I don't see much more rustproofing in *my* future ;)



As for the "thin stuff" from Eastwood, I guess there are always trade-offs. I bet an aerosol system like that is great for people without a compressor. But yeah, you do have to watch that you truly get adequate protection. The ValuGard aerosol stuff seems a little on the thick side with regard to getting into those really *really* tight spots, or at least that was my take on it. No, that's not a slam BTW ;)
 
Hey Ron,



Since we're on the subject of rust proofing, what are your thought's on the Auto Armor rust proofing?



Back in the late 90's I worked at a shop that offered this service along with the undercoating, paint sealant, fabric protectant and so on. To apply the product I used a spray gun with a long thin hose attached equipped with a 360 degree tip. I'd gain access through drip holes or any other removable plugs, but we never drilled any holes. Anyway, I never knew if this stuff was any good or if it offered any benefit? I figured the undercoating was junk but thought the rust proofing may be worth while....





Rasky
 
They don't make a bad product, however it, like most, does not meet the standards set by SAE, meet the ASTM standard.

You were right about their undercoating, it would "pocket" in a couple of years and promote rusting of the underbody.

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
They don't make a bad product, however it, like most, does not meet the standards set by SAE, meet the ASTM standard.

You were right about their undercoating, it would "pocket" in a couple of years and promote rusting of the underbody.

Grumpy
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Thanks!



I'm still in contact with some people at that shop and occasionally I get asked about rust proofing and undercoating by friends and co-workers...I'm always hesitant to send them there given the cost so it's nice to have some solid advice to give. ;)
 
I think it mostly depends on the vehicle and how it was made. Out of four long term cars so far, with most time spent in a garage, 2 had very little/no rust; one had a couple baseball sized surface rust spots, and another had pretty major surface rust on all the lower door edges along with the rear bumper. One of the 2 with little rust is my current Bonneville. It's rust free except right below the gas door. That's because the geniuses at GM decided to use some sort of adhesive to attach the filler neck to the quarter panel. The adhesive is hard to the touch, but absorbs moisture that was kicked up through the weep hole in the gas fill area.
 
1. The condition you discribe regarding the lower door edges is classic "hem flange" corrosion due to the flexing of the door sheet metal panels from the door frame. This broke loose the connection of the panel to the frame, causing the anti-corroisve E-Coat to crack and allow corrosives to get to bare metal. (you can not see this without close inspection with a good lighted, high powered, magnifier.

2. The "baseball" size outer corrosion of the outer painted sheet metai is due to a small road rash induced nick that went down to bare metal. Over time, since a "very, very, small amount of bare metal was exposed, the corrosives of mag cloride, which is used now days in Michigan and other states got to the metal and "crawled under" the e-coat and ate it way to creating a larger concern.

3. The "fuel door" concern is due to the use by GM of a foam injected to the area behind and in some models around the fuel door area. This was done so to reduce "flex" in that area of the panel. This foam does "move" over time and "abrades" the e-coat from the inner panels, plus the foam "holds-absorbs" the corrosive materials that get to the foam.

The key is this, "is it perforation or is the concern coming from behind and under the paint film?"

Perforation is one thing, breaking of the paint film from the panels is another-most cases this starts as a "blistering" of the paint film.

Grumpy

Grumpy
 
the baseball sized spots where actually on the inner part of the car. One was on the rocker close to the sill plate, and the other was the same location, but up on the vertical part by the front door hinge. I'm guessing maybe water intrusion from poor sealing may be to blame? As far as the other one, the metal seems firm, so I don't think it's rusted through. That makes me curious how the paint is blistering. But it is a common occurrence with the 2000+ Bonneville.
 
Or--a nick from the tool fastening the bolts?

All 2000 mid and large size GM products have shown a considerable amount of "rust" after a few years.

Ford had a problem, Chrysler had a problem, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, etc, on and on.

If there is true perforation, a ball point or an ice pick will go right through the affected area.

Blistering is almost 100% due to a nick that went down below the e-coat, I say that based upon my decades of dealing with these issues with most of the vehicle manufacturers and the results of in depth studies of such.

Not to say that there may have been some "off the wall" circumstances that occured, but not normally.

Grumpy
 
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