jerry@robs
New member
Brakedust said:
I'll post one tomorrow... it's not my fault actually, when I got the car, it had a couple of burnt spots... I'll try to take a pic of it tonight...
Rotary Usage
- Thread starter jerry@robs
- Start date
I'll post one tomorrow... it's not my fault actually, when I got the car, it had a couple of burnt spots... I'll try to take a pic of it tonight...
jerry@robs
New member
here it is... the burn mark on my hood... don't know when it happened but it was there when I got the car... send me a PM with your email if you want a much larger pic...
2wheelsx2
New member
Thanks for the pic, David. So in that spot, is the clean coat all gone? It's kind of difficult to see, even in the larger pic. Do you see a different colour? Is the paint "rougher"? Do you have to treat that area differently than other areas of the car?
jerry@robs
New member
The colour is definitely different, kinda like a waxed/hazed area. It's like a "halo" around that area...
The clear is gone (i believe) but the texture is smooth, just like the rest of the paint...
The clear is gone (i believe) but the texture is smooth, just like the rest of the paint...
Nagchampa
Oh I'll Bring the Shizzle
I just ordered a Dewalt DW849 (my first rotary). I have very little experience with a rotary right now but I have been told that it is very similar to using a large stone grinder as far as the way the machine acts and jumps.
I have also worked in a bodyshop for a few years and I kinda know how not to burn paint (from what I understand, the same rules apply for buffing edges as well as grinding while doing body repair).
My plan is to start on my brothers beaters, and work my way up to my dads regularly washed but never waxed in 12 years Corsica. I guess that with about 6 months of practice I will be ready and confident enough to polish cars with minor paint problems that don't belong to family members.
I thought about starting with a PC but I decided that if I eventually want to become skilled with a rotary, I should just start learning how to use it right away.
I know that I will likely burn paint at one time and point which is why I will practise on family cars at first.
I have also worked in a bodyshop for a few years and I kinda know how not to burn paint (from what I understand, the same rules apply for buffing edges as well as grinding while doing body repair).
My plan is to start on my brothers beaters, and work my way up to my dads regularly washed but never waxed in 12 years Corsica. I guess that with about 6 months of practice I will be ready and confident enough to polish cars with minor paint problems that don't belong to family members.
I thought about starting with a PC but I decided that if I eventually want to become skilled with a rotary, I should just start learning how to use it right away.
I know that I will likely burn paint at one time and point which is why I will practise on family cars at first.
jerry@robs
New member
Hey welcome to the club! 
Tip... plastic areas like bumpers are more succeptible to paint burns or paint scrapes...
The areas where the bumper curves into the trunk area is awefully thin... make sure you stick to the slowest speed and keep it moving in that area... whatever speed you use on flat metal surfaces, turn it down halfway when working on plastic ridges
Tip... plastic areas like bumpers are more succeptible to paint burns or paint scrapes...
The areas where the bumper curves into the trunk area is awefully thin... make sure you stick to the slowest speed and keep it moving in that area... whatever speed you use on flat metal surfaces, turn it down halfway when working on plastic ridges
Anthony O.
New member
Forum,
Rarely does the need come up to use a rpm higher than 1800 when working with the majoroity of paint problems, so has been my experience.
I worked on a Jag yesterday with moderate swirls, hard water spots and scratches. The Jag was a metallic black 2001. Plan of attack was foam cutting pad with 600 grit remover - polishing pad with 1500 grit remover - from here I went to my normal polishing process and never went over 1500 RPM's.
The key is slow yet steady movement of your wheel. Keep the pads clean, not allowing product build up and practice speed control of the wheel on edges rather than "triggering" the speed because this can cause swirls.
Anthony :bounce
Rarely does the need come up to use a rpm higher than 1800 when working with the majoroity of paint problems, so has been my experience.
I worked on a Jag yesterday with moderate swirls, hard water spots and scratches. The Jag was a metallic black 2001. Plan of attack was foam cutting pad with 600 grit remover - polishing pad with 1500 grit remover - from here I went to my normal polishing process and never went over 1500 RPM's.
The key is slow yet steady movement of your wheel. Keep the pads clean, not allowing product build up and practice speed control of the wheel on edges rather than "triggering" the speed because this can cause swirls.
Anthony :bounce
masterfinish
New member
To attempt to teach buffing techniques by writing would most likely never work. Nothing like hands on will ever truly show a person how to use a high speed polisher. I can tell you that lower speeds help to reduce swirling, the reason being the amount of heat build up. The new clear coats and how to polish them is quite a science that old school detailers have a hard time accepting. Fact one is that heating the surface over 110 to 115 degrees with the friction of a spinning polishing pad can permanently damage the surface. A clouding affect can show up from over heating, thus the reason tyo keep the polisher moving slowly but steadily. The use of a digital infrared thermometer is a good tool to use when learning and can be a valuable sales tool. Just aim the unit at the surface and you get instant acurate readings to see how much heat is being created. Learning when to use twisted wool, synthetic/wool blend finishing pads and how and when to use foam cutting, polishing and finishing pads all come into play. The fact that you mentioned being able to practice on junk cars is a great way to learn. Reading your posts regarding skipping makes me think that because you could be polishing dirty, oxidized paint that you are getting a very quick build up of material on the fibers of your plishing pad. You need to spur it our thoroughly and often. Let the chemical do the work, do not push for more cutting power. If need be change to different levels of abrasive polishes. The pad and polisher is to make the work quicker and give a more evenly finished surface than you can do by hand. Working small areas, no more than 2 ft by 2 ft allows you to effectively work the area intended without drying to fast. Only apply product to the area you are ready to polish, never spreading polish out way ahead of where your working. That can cause permanent staining due to the solvents most polishes use as part of the cleaning chemical. The new clear coats have a UV (ultra violet) protection built into the top surface. The removal of more than .003 to .004 mils is the maximum depth a clear coat can be cut into. Any more reduces the UV protection which will cause sun damage to the base in a matter of months depending on the amount of sun the vehicle is exposed to. The only way to accurately tell how much material has been removed is to use a electronic digital paint thickness guage which costs several hundred dollars depending of the supplier. The thermometer can be found at any NAPA auto parts store for approx. $99.00. Due to the liabilty that comes with selling your services as a professional it is imperative that you have the proper equipment, training and knowledge before you accept a customers high dollar car and state that you will polish it safely and swirl free. This is a hugh subject and I'd be happy to answer specifics. With over 31 years experience and still learing everyday, I may be able to help.
Tom at Masterfinish
Tom at Masterfinish
ragtopgolfer
New member
Taxlady said:
I was looking for this and the link is now dead, can anyone help?
over the years, i have used the rotary buffer only when necessary. eventhough, i have become proficient with this machine, i have learned that most imperfections will not come out of a cars finish. my thoughts are that cars that come to you that need a high speed buffer on them, their owners could care less about their car, of course there are some exceptions. do you know the guy who gets a new car and is in your shop for the first month, once a week getting a hand wash? where did he go? my point is that most customers like to see a shinny car when they pick it up and a lasting wax over a time period. working w/ a high speed is very time consuming, b/c you usually have to do a 3 step process. cut, polish, wax. swirls, buffer mark and other problems arise. sure you can cover up swirl marks, but what is the customer going to think after a few washes? the bottom line is that the orbital buffer w/ a paint cleaner does a great job. follow it w/ wax and the exterior is done. you will be amazed by the results you get. i have a gem orbital and i use it w/ midnight special (on dark cars) then i follow w/ a coat of wax. you dont have to worry about the swirl marks and you essentially have piece of mind knowing the the customer is satisfied. i think that you shouldnt give your customers high expectations in regards to the exterior of a car. under promise and over deliver. thats how you retain clientelle. just a few thoughts. if you want more email me directly
tcsalon
tcsalon
wool only when necessary
keep the speed around 1500
swirls are created when temp of buffer to surface is over 115F
the products you use are important
keep the pad as clean as possible. (clean after each section)
drizzle product on surface, spread out w/ pad at low speed, start up and down, then corner to corner, then side to side. this should create enough heat to move the scratches, but not enough to create swirls, and enough movement to work the product in the paint.
just my experience
tcsalon
keep the speed around 1500
swirls are created when temp of buffer to surface is over 115F
the products you use are important
keep the pad as clean as possible. (clean after each section)
drizzle product on surface, spread out w/ pad at low speed, start up and down, then corner to corner, then side to side. this should create enough heat to move the scratches, but not enough to create swirls, and enough movement to work the product in the paint.
just my experience
tcsalon
Nagchampa
Oh I'll Bring the Shizzle
Is it possible that the person polishing this vehicle used a heavy a compound (or wool pad) and failed to follow up with finer compounds and SMR? It is probably impossible to see the extent of it unless you are in person, but the car appears to be covered in rotary swirls.kfcho said:
imported_Smoker
New member
Looks JUST like the state of the wifes Ford Explorer.
Can these be removed with a DA or do they need the htting power of a rotary ?
Im a bit nervous of making it worse with a rotary, and if a PC will do the job safely, I'll gladly take the time needed.
Can these be removed with a DA or do they need the htting power of a rotary ?
Im a bit nervous of making it worse with a rotary, and if a PC will do the job safely, I'll gladly take the time needed.
jerry@robs
New member
If your wife's Explorer has buffer swirls, then a DA can remove it, but if it's a buffer burn then that's another story...
Green Monster
New member
I have just received my PC 7428 Rotary for my b-day about a month ago and I am itching to use it but alittle scared. :shocked
I have use a Rotary about half of dozen times before and I have only use my new one to buff out a couple of sctraches. Worked well.
Now I want to work on the wife's car and remove the swirls.
Pad and polish selection help, please. Oh, and keep pad flat or on a slight angle? :nixweiss Thanks
(Waffle, Yellow or White foam, wool)??
(DACP,#2,#3,#4, or 3M fine, medium, finesse-it)??
I have use a Rotary about half of dozen times before and I have only use my new one to buff out a couple of sctraches. Worked well.
Now I want to work on the wife's car and remove the swirls.
Pad and polish selection help, please. Oh, and keep pad flat or on a slight angle? :nixweiss Thanks
(Waffle, Yellow or White foam, wool)??
(DACP,#2,#3,#4, or 3M fine, medium, finesse-it)??
imported_Greg1
New member
Green Monster- I think you and I are the only one's who want to get down to this rotary business. Ahh...I want to know what I should expect, how it works, what types of pads, compounds/polishes.
Anthony O.
New member
Rotary rookies....
Speed, pad choice and product choice all come by hands on experience. This is a totally subjective area and the only objective thing about high speed use is that it can be a dangerous tool if taken lightly.
I cannot stress enough how important it is to practice on an older car or a scrap hood or door. I even suggest that you intentionally burn the paint on the scrap pieces so you know just how much heat and friction it takes plus you will know what a "burn" looks like hence you can perhaps prevent it from happening when doing your own car or worse a customers. Use different pads for the burning like foam cutting pads and wool cutting pads and you will see that foam pads, the non-waffle type, actually heat up quicker than the wool pads because the wool pads allow more air flow.
I have several wool pads but honestly I rarely use them. I prefer to use mainly polishing pads and finishing pads and rarely ever dial past 1800 rpms. If you have a polisher with a variable speed trigger than learn how to lightly squeeze the trigger just half way so you can rev from a few hundred rpm's to your dialed rpm limit, say a 1000. This technique comes in very handy for buffing up next to edges and body lines.
OK, lets buff out a section of a hood. The hood has very light oxidation, minimal swirls. My first step after washing would be to clay that hood thus removing the light oxidation. We then tape off all areas prone to get buffer residue and splatter like windshield wipers and washers. Since we have removed the oxidation we can go with a product designed to remove light swirls and scratches and not worry about removing oxidation.
The problem is not serious enough to justify a cutting pad or a wool pad and a finishing pad would be far to mild to work the product so a polishing pad is what we need. Set the buffer at about 1000 to 1200, I personally (depending on what product I am using) like to mist my pad with a QD. In your head pick out a section about 2x2 in the middle of the hood and apply a light bead of cleaner to the pad. Now many people suggest to apply this in a circle on the outside of the pad or apply a quarter size drop close to the center of the pad. I have found that this depends on what area you are buffing. For large areas, like our hood, I apply the polish in a circle around the pad and if I am buffing a small edge, say around the curve of a bumper, I might apply a small drop to the paint itself and with a slow rev spread the product and cover an area then slowy increase speed.
So we will apply a small bead of product on our pad around the edge and lay the buffer cord over our shoulder,lay the buffer down flat and make sure you are NOT over extended as this will result in buffer hop. If you are kinda short you may need to get a step stool so that you are over and above the buffer as much as possible. This is very important. If you are right handed then your left hand will grab the handle WHICH by the way is NOT what you steer the buffer with. The handle should only be used to assist in guidance and balance. Far too many newbies PULL the buffer or PUSH the buffer with the handle which results in swirls. It will be natural your first few times to have a death grip on the buffer and your body will let you know this the next day by a sore wrist and/or forearm. Beads of sweat are also a clue
Mentally check yourself every so often that you are not clutching the buffer too tight on the extended handle because this will cause you to tilt the pad. You should be able to release the handle while buffing (on a flat surface) and the buffer will glide across the surface. I buff with my right hand working the trigger and my left hand rests lightly on the top of the buffer just above the spindle lock or no left hand at all.
Slowly press the trigger and as the pad begins to spin draw the 2x2 outline with the pad and product and then while slowly increasing speed move the buffer into a figure 8 pattern WITHIN your box. Concentrate right now on the control of speed and movement and not how or if the product is working because with the correct control of speed and movement the product will work!
The pad does NOT need to lie completly flat at all times for this is impossible. One would go nuts trying to buff out a 911, with all of its contours, and keep the pad flat to the paint. Some pads are designed to work better with a slight tilt of the pad. Swirls are introduced into the finish by over tilting but more so by the wrong choice and/or combination of aggressive pad and product.
I get asked quite often, "How do I know when to stop buffing?" That is a question that can only be answered by expereince. While I am buffing I look at the paint and product on the paint and dart my eyes from the area I am doing to the area next to it and I also watch how the product is being worked. As long as you are moving the buffer with slow but steady passes in your boxed area and their is still product to work there is little need to worry about paint burn. After a few moments feel the area you just buffed by laying your palm down on it. If it is just warm then you are doing everything correct, if it is hot then you are working too small of an area for too long of a time OR too high of a speed for the area. Another factor could also be that you need more product.
After 14 years of buffing I can pretty much look at a panel and mentally determine how much product will be needed and for how long but with time and expereince this will also come your way.
Also remember to move the buffer with your body and not just your hands. The ideal movement is that your upper torso, shoulders and hands all move in unison WITH the buffer. This takes some practice. And DON'T forget to breathe as you are buffing because lots of times newbies, in being nervous, hold their breathe and become very ridgid which almost always results in mistakes and frustration. Practice, practice, practice.
Lastly, if your pad seems to be skipping then remove it and rinse it out. On an average car I may rinse out my pad three or four times. Well I apologize for the long post but have fun and enjoy the experience. If I can be of anymore help please let me know.
Anthony
Speed, pad choice and product choice all come by hands on experience. This is a totally subjective area and the only objective thing about high speed use is that it can be a dangerous tool if taken lightly.
I cannot stress enough how important it is to practice on an older car or a scrap hood or door. I even suggest that you intentionally burn the paint on the scrap pieces so you know just how much heat and friction it takes plus you will know what a "burn" looks like hence you can perhaps prevent it from happening when doing your own car or worse a customers. Use different pads for the burning like foam cutting pads and wool cutting pads and you will see that foam pads, the non-waffle type, actually heat up quicker than the wool pads because the wool pads allow more air flow.
I have several wool pads but honestly I rarely use them. I prefer to use mainly polishing pads and finishing pads and rarely ever dial past 1800 rpms. If you have a polisher with a variable speed trigger than learn how to lightly squeeze the trigger just half way so you can rev from a few hundred rpm's to your dialed rpm limit, say a 1000. This technique comes in very handy for buffing up next to edges and body lines.
OK, lets buff out a section of a hood. The hood has very light oxidation, minimal swirls. My first step after washing would be to clay that hood thus removing the light oxidation. We then tape off all areas prone to get buffer residue and splatter like windshield wipers and washers. Since we have removed the oxidation we can go with a product designed to remove light swirls and scratches and not worry about removing oxidation.
The problem is not serious enough to justify a cutting pad or a wool pad and a finishing pad would be far to mild to work the product so a polishing pad is what we need. Set the buffer at about 1000 to 1200, I personally (depending on what product I am using) like to mist my pad with a QD. In your head pick out a section about 2x2 in the middle of the hood and apply a light bead of cleaner to the pad. Now many people suggest to apply this in a circle on the outside of the pad or apply a quarter size drop close to the center of the pad. I have found that this depends on what area you are buffing. For large areas, like our hood, I apply the polish in a circle around the pad and if I am buffing a small edge, say around the curve of a bumper, I might apply a small drop to the paint itself and with a slow rev spread the product and cover an area then slowy increase speed.
So we will apply a small bead of product on our pad around the edge and lay the buffer cord over our shoulder,lay the buffer down flat and make sure you are NOT over extended as this will result in buffer hop. If you are kinda short you may need to get a step stool so that you are over and above the buffer as much as possible. This is very important. If you are right handed then your left hand will grab the handle WHICH by the way is NOT what you steer the buffer with. The handle should only be used to assist in guidance and balance. Far too many newbies PULL the buffer or PUSH the buffer with the handle which results in swirls. It will be natural your first few times to have a death grip on the buffer and your body will let you know this the next day by a sore wrist and/or forearm. Beads of sweat are also a clue
Mentally check yourself every so often that you are not clutching the buffer too tight on the extended handle because this will cause you to tilt the pad. You should be able to release the handle while buffing (on a flat surface) and the buffer will glide across the surface. I buff with my right hand working the trigger and my left hand rests lightly on the top of the buffer just above the spindle lock or no left hand at all.
Slowly press the trigger and as the pad begins to spin draw the 2x2 outline with the pad and product and then while slowly increasing speed move the buffer into a figure 8 pattern WITHIN your box. Concentrate right now on the control of speed and movement and not how or if the product is working because with the correct control of speed and movement the product will work!
The pad does NOT need to lie completly flat at all times for this is impossible. One would go nuts trying to buff out a 911, with all of its contours, and keep the pad flat to the paint. Some pads are designed to work better with a slight tilt of the pad. Swirls are introduced into the finish by over tilting but more so by the wrong choice and/or combination of aggressive pad and product.
I get asked quite often, "How do I know when to stop buffing?" That is a question that can only be answered by expereince. While I am buffing I look at the paint and product on the paint and dart my eyes from the area I am doing to the area next to it and I also watch how the product is being worked. As long as you are moving the buffer with slow but steady passes in your boxed area and their is still product to work there is little need to worry about paint burn. After a few moments feel the area you just buffed by laying your palm down on it. If it is just warm then you are doing everything correct, if it is hot then you are working too small of an area for too long of a time OR too high of a speed for the area. Another factor could also be that you need more product.
After 14 years of buffing I can pretty much look at a panel and mentally determine how much product will be needed and for how long but with time and expereince this will also come your way.
Also remember to move the buffer with your body and not just your hands. The ideal movement is that your upper torso, shoulders and hands all move in unison WITH the buffer. This takes some practice. And DON'T forget to breathe as you are buffing because lots of times newbies, in being nervous, hold their breathe and become very ridgid which almost always results in mistakes and frustration. Practice, practice, practice.
Lastly, if your pad seems to be skipping then remove it and rinse it out. On an average car I may rinse out my pad three or four times. Well I apologize for the long post but have fun and enjoy the experience. If I can be of anymore help please let me know.
Anthony
Nagchampa
Oh I'll Bring the Shizzle
Excellent post Anthony! I can visualize exactly what you are describing.