Rotary Buffer Hop, i need some wisdom here...

[rbruditt]

So I just received a Makita 9227 for xmas after using my FLEX DA polisher for the past 2.5 years. Today was the first time I have used the 9227 and I experienced some seriously out of control buffer hop. Im assuming that you just have to practice practice practice just like anything else in life, but I want to be sure that I was not doing something that I shouldn't have been. I was using 5" LC pads that I used on my FLEX and I started off with a Yellow pad and Menzerna Power Gloss. This Combo gave me the most trouble. I was able to fix the swirls left behind with Super Finish and a White LC foam pad though. Anyways, I would greatly appreciate ANY advice that you can give.



P.S. I did use the search option and couldn't find anything as particular as I wanted.

 

[Barry Theal]

DId it feel like the pad was grabing the paint?

 

[rbruditt]

Yes it did, I got nervous because I didnt want to burn the paint or leave holos on my car so i let off right then and polished it back out. When i agree with you when you said "grabbing" the paint, I mean that it was really grabbing it hard. It was hard to hold on to.

 

[Barry Theal]

Was it a brand new pad? or was the pad dry?

 

[rbruditt]

Yes to both.

 

[Barry Theal]

That was your problem!

 

[Greg Gellas]

Did you overload the pad with compound? I get some hop which to me is a sign I need to change the pad Any hop new pad and bam no hop get to go at a new panel

 

[rbruditt]

So can i use a quick detailer to prime the pad? Are new pads always finicky on a rotary buffer?

 

[Cleaning Fool]

Trade your yellow pad in for a wool pad

 

[rbruditt]

That was your problem!

Thanks so much for the Help man, I was concerned about it big time!

Trade your yellow pad in for a wool pad

Thanks for the advice man, I just got off the phone with Bufferbarry and he said the same! Im about to jump on the wool train.

 

[ABQDetailer]

Be careful. Once you go wool, it's hard to go back!

 

[KIOS3R]

hi rbruditt...

try to priming your pad with instant detailer, if it doesnt work try to priming it with "cheap instant detailer" ( i mean very oily and hard to buff if you use it for the body panel)



and cleaning your pad after polishing 3 - 5 panel (spray the pad with IPA, and buff it with MF towel , or brush it with very soft brush / toothbrush)



hope it can help ^_^

 

[Rickrack]

As far as buffing with a rotary, most people will tell you to keep the pad completely flat, but I like to hold it at a slight angle. This helps you control the machine a little better without having it hop all over the place. You only need to hold it at a slight angle (barely tilted), using light pressure. I am right-handed, so I always tilt the pad to the right. Let the machine do it's job and don't push down too hard, but give it enough pressure to hold the machine from getting out of control. Some people will disagree about tilting the pad, but I find that it really helps me control the machine better. Everyone is different, so do what feels right for you.









Buffer hop is usually caused by not enough lubrication (polish) between the pad and the paint. If the dry pad comes in contact with the paint, it will cause it to hop around and you risk damaging the paint. This is probably the main reason why you are having trouble. As bufferbarry mentioned, you can spritz a little quick detailer to prime your pad which will help. I have never found it necessary, but some people will add a drop of mineral oil to the polish which will provide lubrication and greatly extend working time. I don't really recommend it, but it might help you out until you get the hang of the rotary. By the way, if you can't find pure mineral oil, Baby Oil is the same thing.









I also find that it is important to saturate the edge of the pad with polish by adding a few drops to the outside edge and rubbing it in with your fingers, but don't use too much or it will sling everywhere. Saturating the edge of the pad with polish will give you the lubrication you need, reducing buffer hop and lowering the risk of burning the paint with the edge of the pad. It is just as important to saturate the edges of the pad as the face of the pad. If you are buffing at weird angles and the unlubricated pad comes in contact with the paint, you are looking for trouble.









Try spreading the polish evenly across the panel over a 2 or 3 foot area, starting off very slow until all of the polish is spread out. Then, slowly bump up your speed, little by little until you reach around 1500 rpm or so. Every paint is different, so use your own judgement as far as speed. Add more polish as you need it, but don't over saturate the pad. Buffer hop can also be caused by an overloaded pad, so be sure to clean or replace your pads often.









A lot of people think faster is better on a rotary, but going slow is the key, unless you are compounding after wetsanding, where speed helps. You'd be amazed how much correction you can achieve at slow speeds. I set the speed at a notch above 3 on the Makita, or around 1500 rpm, depending on how the paint reacts and what product I'm using. I do most of my polishing at 1500rpm and rarely go over 1800 rpm. Do fairly slow passes and allow the polish / pad combo to abrade the paint and only work a 2 to 3 foot section at a time, overlapping the previous pass. If you move the buffer too fast over the panel, you are basically doing nothing, so slow is the key. You obviously don't want to hold it in one place for a long period of time or else you risk burning the paint. I always feel the panels with my hand to check how hot the panel is. If it is too hot to touch with your hand, back off or you are going to burn the paint. As I mentioned before, let the buffer do the work and work slow enough to allow the polish to properly break down.









Wash your buffing pad often throughout the detail, which will prevent unnecessary micromarring and will also help control the machine better. I have found that when the buffing pad gets too saturated with polish, it doesn't cut as well and takes longer to get the results you are looking for, not to mention the mess it makes.









I hope this helps! If you have any other question, feel free to drop me a PM





Good luck ! :xyxthumbs

~Rick

 

[Flashtime]

As far as buffing with a rotary, most people will tell you to keep the pad completely flat, but I like to hold it at a slight angle. This helps you control the machine a little better without having it hop all over the place. You only need to hold it at a slight angle (barely tilted), using light pressure. I am right-handed, so I always tilt the pad to the right. Let the machine do it's job and don't push down too hard, but give it enough pressure to hold the machine from getting out of control. Some people will disagree about tilting the pad, but I find that it really helps me control the machine better. Everyone is different, so do what feels right for you.









Buffer hop is usually caused by not enough lubrication (polish) between the pad and the paint. If the dry pad comes in contact with the paint, it will cause it to hop around and you risk damaging the paint. This is probably the main reason why you are having trouble. As bufferbarry mentioned, you can spritz a little quick detailer to prime your pad which will help. I have never found it necessary, but some people will add a drop of mineral oil to the polish which will provide lubrication and greatly extend working time. I don't really recommend it, but it might help you out until you get the hang of the rotary. By the way, if you can't find pure mineral oil, Baby Oil is the same thing.









I also find that it is important to saturate the edge of the pad with polish by adding a few drops to the outside edge and rubbing it in with your fingers, but don't use too much or it will sling everywhere. Saturating the edge of the pad with polish will give you the lubrication you need, reducing buffer hop and lowering the risk of burning the paint with the edge of the pad. It is just as important to saturate the edges of the pad as the face of the pad. If you are buffing at weird angles and the unlubricated pad comes in contact with the paint, you are looking for trouble.









Try spreading the polish evenly across the panel over a 2 or 3 foot area, starting off very slow until all of the polish is spread out. Then, slowly bump up your speed, little by little until you reach around 1500 rpm or so. Every paint is different, so use your own judgement as far as speed. Add more polish as you need it, but don't over saturate the pad. Buffer hop can also be caused by an overloaded pad, so be sure to clean or replace your pads often.









A lot of people think faster is better on a rotary, but going slow is the key, unless you are compounding after wetsanding, where speed helps. You'd be amazed how much correction you can achieve at slow speeds. I set the speed at a notch above 3 on the Makita, or around 1500 rpm, depending on how the paint reacts and what product I'm using. I do most of my polishing at 1500rpm and rarely go over 1800 rpm. Do fairly slow passes and allow the polish / pad combo to abrade the paint and only work a 2 to 3 foot section at a time, overlapping the previous pass. If you move the buffer too fast over the panel, you are basically doing nothing, so slow is the key. You obviously don't want to hold it in one place for a long period of time or else you risk burning the paint. I always feel the panels with my hand to check how hot the panel is. If it is too hot to touch with your hand, back off or you are going to burn the paint. As I mentioned before, let the buffer do the work and work slow enough to allow the polish to properly break down.









Wash your buffing pad often throughout the detail, which will prevent unnecessary micromarring and will also help control the machine better. I have found that when the buffing pad gets too saturated with polish, it doesn't cut as well and takes longer to get the results you are looking for, not to mention the mess it makes.









I hope this helps! If you have any other question, feel free to drop me a PM





Good luck !

~Rick

Great info! That's what i've been saying and doing for a while; slight tilt and low

rpms. Safe and effective. Even fresh paint, which is what i work on, can be

polished effectively under 1500 rpm. This should be a sticky.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Great write up Rick.



OP - you'll love wool. make sure to tilt the pad.

 

[Kevin Brown]

Yes, good advice by all. :2thumbs:



This is from an old post I made back in 2005 on MOL in response to a similar question (some of the information repeats what has already been given in this thread):

I purchased a few 8" Meguiars foam pads which I'm new to. I have been using the Rotary buffer for at least 10 years now with a wool pad.

Until recently I wanted to try the foam to see if there was a difference. I put on the same product as well as the same amount and get a nasty hop to the buffer. What is the cause of this? Any help will be much appreciated.



Thank you,

Sellncars

I know what you're going through. Anyone that's using foam pads has encountered the same 'hopping' problem, so don't worry. If you've been buffing for 10 years, you'll get the hang of it in no time. Let's go over the dynamics of pads.



Wool pads are very forgiving and easy to control in comparison to foam pads. Wool pads glide as they change shape. The wool strings lay upon each other as the pad spins. Since the strings are individually thin, they easily change overall pad thickness (as varied pressure is applied and buffer angle is changed). In other words, they conform to flat or curved surfaces rather easily.



A few reasons why foam pads hop:



1. Foam pads are squishy, and have a natural tendency to rebound.

All those tiny air pockets purposely designed into the pad allow compression and rebound (if you squeeze the pad between your fingers, it'll try to return to its natural shape).



When the pad is placed on the paint surface and the buffer is throttled, the foam pad twists against the paint initially. Once it planes, it returns to its natural shape (close to it, anyway). The amount of pressure you are applying to the buffer also determines the amount of distortion the pad will encounter. Push hard, and the pad flattens. Of course, it wants to rebound to its natural shape.



Therefore, a foam pad needs something to control its rebound (Just as a car needs shock absorbers to control suspension springs). Effectively, YOU become the shock absorber. You must learn the amount of pressure needed to keep the pad shape consistent. If bouncing does occur, you'll have to lift up on the buffer (to reduce pressure momentarily), or change the angle of attack.



On that topic: Assuming that downforce remains the same, if you change the angle of the pad to a more aggressive one, the pounds per square inch applied to the paint will be increased because less pad is touching paint, but the same force is being applied, right?



I hope I've explained this properly. If I did, you can easily understand why compression and rebound would cause foam pad hop.



2. Too much buffing polish applied to the surface.

Whereas a wool pad easily cuts through excess buffing polish (a weedwhacker effect takes place), a foam pad does not easily cut through excess polish. Foam pads work well because they are made to glide along the surface rather than cut into it. If too much polish is applied, the pad cannot cut through, and instead rides upon it.



The excess polish either gums up on the paint, or saturates the pad. When this happens, the foam pad does not glide along smoothly- It grips and then releases (at 1500 r.p.m. this can happen many times per second). Severe compression and rebound occurs, and VOILA!- your buddy pad bounce stops by for a quick visit. :wall:



3. Not enough polish applied to the painted surface.

If not enough polish is applied to the paint, the foam pad does not glide. Instead, the rubbing action creates heat (which in turn causes the pad to 'hook up' (like a drag slick!). If this is a common problem for you, I feel sorry for the state of your wallet... repainting will definitely be in your future.



4. Foam Pad Saturation.

When too much product is repeatedly applied, eventually the polishing oils and/or solvents will enter the foam pad and saturate it. When this happens, the integrity of the pad is compromised.



The foam material may become 'soft' and non-pliable (it won't keep it's original shape). It'll become gummy.



As a rule, you should carry two to three times more foam pads on hand as compared to wool pads. Rotating your pads through the buffing process will allow them to air dry, evaporate solvents, and minimize thermal breakdown.



It is very important to keep polish build-up to a minimum on the pad itself. Use a soft brush designed for foam pad cleaning to remove residue, and if you must wash a foam pad, use only car wash solution or baby shampoo, as they are typically pH balanced (and won't attack the glue holding the velcro on the pad). To dry, roll the pad into a terry cloth towel and squeeze. Allow to air-dry. :xyxthumbs

 

[Envious Eric]

good, I thought i was crazy or something not being about to keep a completely flat pad on the paint! i have always done the slight tilt!!!

 

[Rickrack]

good, I thought i was crazy or something not being about to keep a completely flat pad on the paint! i have always done the slight tilt!!!

Slightly tilting the pad definitely helps me control the machine better. You only hear people recommend keeping the pad completely flat, which I think makes it harder to control. There's no right or wrong technique, but I definitely prefer a slight tilt.