Removing Ice / Frost from windshields and/or windows. Share your methods.

[Rob22315]

I'll offer personal theories and a brief experience on idling and oil. I use synthetic oil for two reasons - avoid sludge due to short trips where the oil doesn't warm up and - because I have older cars prone to weird failures - better resistance to coking should the engine overheat. I also prefer to only let the engine warm up for about a minute before driving off to give enough time for the oil to begin to circulate but not wasting gas leaving it idle.



A brief personal experience - when I was still in high school, I took my brothers and the family car to the train station. We went into the city while the car sat in the train parking lot - idling for the entire time we were in the city. Yes, the car idled for about 6-7 hours and went through most of a full tank of gas. :shocked It didn't seem to hurt the engine at all. There was no drop in performance, no repairs during the remainder of the life of the vehicle due to excessive wear of internal engine parts. This was an old AMC station wagon. :woohoo



My parents weren't exactly happy about the whole thing but since it didn't cost them any money in repairs they took it pretty well. Also, I was pretty good with basic repairs to the vehicle by that time so I was saving them money in the long run with DIY maintenance and minor repairs.



Based on all of that, I say do a short idle, then drive gently and use synthetics. It costs a more money per oil change but I go longer between oil changes because of the additional detergents most synthetics contain and less degradation of viscosity over time.



RG

 

[rx280]

To those who say, “Go ahead and use a scraper; it’s not going to do any harm to the glass,� I say, “Depends on the scraper.� I’ve scratched the windshield of my current car, a 2004 Acura TSX, on two occasions, and these are significant, you-can-feel-’em-with-a-fingernail scratches. Some are close to a foot long.

On the first occasion, I actually wasn’t using a scraper. I’d somehow forgotten to put one in the car, so I pulled out an electronic security card, which I’d used as a makeshift scraper before (with excellent results). (This is a card about the size of a credit card, but thicker and of multi-layer construction.) What I didn’t notice until the damage had been done is that there was a chip about the size of a shirt button on the edge of the card’s top layer; I’m guessing it resulted from one of my first swipes or from a previous use of the card as a scraper. Because of the chip, I put several long, arcing scratches in the windshield – mostly on the driver’s side and close to driver’s eye level, naturally.

The damage was severe enough that I looked into having a company that does glass polishing attempt to get rid of, or at least minimize, the scratches. But the cost estimate was pretty high – a few hundred dollars, if I’m remembering correctly – and the company acknowledged the possibility that the polishing would cause distortion, so I decided to try to live with the scratches. (From what I’ve read here, do-it-yourself attempts at glass polishing to remove scratches are ineffective unless the scratches are very light.)

Then, last year around this time, I scraped the windshield using the scraper I’d used the winter before – a fairly small, lightweight one, which I actually prefer over the larger, heavier types – and, to my shock and distress, added a bunch more scratches. When I discovered what had happened, I checked the edge of the scraper and found it to be a little rough in places, but nowhere near as rough as I expected it to be, given the damage it had just done.

Seeing as I don’t recall scratching any other windshields in more than three decades of car ownership, I’ve wondered whether this car’s glass is unusually soft, but that sounds pretty unlikely, doesn’t it?

Anyway, I’m now being very careful about only using scrapers with VERY smooth edges, but I still fear that I’m going to scratch the windshield again.

(I’d love to have this windshield replaced, and there’s a stone chip in it that might enable me to make a legit insurance claim, but I’ve heard several horror stories about shoddy windshield-replacement jobs, so I’m gun-shy about pursuing that avenue.)

 

[sixty7mustang22]

are you sure, I found this after about 10 seconds of searching!:

Vehicle Specific Auto Alarms & Remote Car Starters - Audi Bypass Kits

I thought he was saying that the Audi had a Bypass Module in it from the factory. I know you can buy a module to splices into the stock wireing. But I am saying that I'm not splicing anything into the stock wireing in the Audi that has to do with the ignition system and the security system. The Audi alread has finicky wireing as it is and I'm not taking chances. It would be a paint in the butt and expensive to fix if something got messed up.



Get over the remote starter people. I don't let my car idle and I'm not lazy enough to need one anyway. I can walk outside and turn the key just as easy when I take the dog out to pee and not have to mess with the stock wireing.

 

[01TrublUGT]

Think about what you just said for a minute. Sand, grit and road debris bombard the windshield. They also stick to the windshield. Now, think about rubbing a hard plastic tool over a windshield that contains a lot of gritty debris and tell me that it isn't going to harm it in some way. Sure, using it on a perfectly clean windshield isn't going to hurt. Using it on a dirty windshield is a whole different story. That is the same concept as cleaning the paint before you polish or wax it. You want to remove contamination before you rub something on the paint.

Not trying to be a ***** in any way. Go out to your car with the biggest knife you have and try to cut the windshield. Take out a set of keys and try to key your windshield. Now do it on your paint and compare results. Glass is hard and ALOT more resitive to damage than your paint is so comparing polishing paint to polishing a windshield is apples to oranges. Now if you took a plastic scraper and pushed it onto the windshield as hard as you could and dragged it across the windshield like that then you might get a few scratches, as with anything else in life a bit of care goes a long way.

There isn't a bypass module on her Audi that allows a remote start and her Audi isn't an SUV. And I do take offense to that comment. What is just a $13K Audi to someone else is a $60K Benz to me. Do you think I care more or less about a vehicle I own because it isn't the most expensive thing on the street? I treat every car I own and every car I detail with the same top respect, from a Ford Fiesta to a Ferrari F430.

There is a bypass module out for just about any car on the road today. I was not trying to offend you believe me I wasn't. What I was trying to say was that adding a remote start system to a car is not very invasive to the wiring, in other words if you really wanted to you could take it out and most(99%) of the people that took the time to inspect the wiring would never catch the fact that it was there. My comparison of the Audi vs the Benz was a bit off, I was trying to get the point across that while even in mint condition your car is what it is and fooling with the wiring provided it was done properly would not detract from the value of it compared to some of your higher end cars where the slightest thing added that the factory or dealer did not install might detract from the value of it.



As for the issue of extended idle, I will simply add this. I would not let a car idle for hours a few maybe 5 or 10 min in the morning is fine. How many people sit in bumper to bumper traffic for more than 10 min a day in their cars. I had a motor built for my last car, high compression, fully forged, balanced and blueprinted. The builders instructions to me were simple. Let it warm up a little before you go driving it around, and as a clarification when I asked he said 5 min was good. He also said that if I had been getting on it to let it idle for about 5-10 min before I shut it off. I would tend to take the advice of the builder.

 

[Big Leegr]

Something else to consider with the "idle a bit or start and go" discussion, if you take off right away, the car won't have enough heat built up to keep the windows defogged, which is a driving hazard.



Also, I check the PCV valve every so often in an attempt to prevent a backflow of oil spray from coating my engine. (Not fun to clean, especially in freezing weather. )

 

[elsdragon314]

1.) Leaving it idle will pollute the air. Well yes but so will driving it. Considering your exhaust system is doing its job it would put out less emissions idling than doing 50mph. Then again when it is cold it does take a bit of extra time for the cats to lite up so in essence you are putting MORE chemicals in the air by driving it before it is up to temp than letting it idle for 10 min. until it gets there.

Well this is not entirely true. While the engine is idling cold it does not put out as much exhaust versus driving, but a couple things are hurting the environment more while idling. First, it is running rich, because the engine is cold, and extra fuel is added just to keep it running. Second burn efficiency is lower because the cylinder walls are quenching the flame. Third the catylitic converters are not warm, and thus are doing practically nothing to convert unburned hydrocarbons and CO to less harmful CO2. Thus while you are putting out less exhaust, the exhaust being released is significantly more harmful. Emissions are the primary reason car companies are now recommending shorter warm up intervals before driving off. (They also have better tolerance control than older cars)

2.) Letting it idle for 5-10 min will put more strain on the motor as the oil has not had a chance to heat up. Modern oil does not turn to molasses when cold, it will still lubricate. So if the car has been off all night long, most of the oil has made its way back into the crank case. What would cause more damage here, starting it up and letting it idle at 1000rpm's for a few min....ooorrr starting it up waiting 20 seconds and then spinning it to the tune of 3000-4000rpm's right away before the block had a chance to heat, pistons had time to expand, ect...ect...

You are right, modern oils are much better and variable weight does reduce damage on start up. That being said it does not take even 20 seconds for oil to circulate through the entire system, if it did, the engine would not run very long. Oil provides the required protection pretty much by the time the engine actually starts running. The cranking time is sufficient to get oil through most of the engine, particularly to the soft metallic bearings on the crank and rods. An intersting point on pistons. Most OEM pistons (non-turbocharged engines) are made of a hypereutectic aluminum (excess silicon). These pistons have a really low coefficient of expansion, and the wall tolerances are pretty tight in modern engines. You don't really have to wait for the engine to warm up to prevent piston slap/lower side loading on the rings like you did in older engines. Now for older engines with looser tolerances letting it idle a few minutes is a good idea in this case, also true for some custom built and all turbo charged engines. I really wouldn't push a cold engine past 3000 rpm, but the engine was already cold idling at 1500 or 2000 rpm, is another 1000 going to destroy it, or cause even significantly more wear? I think not.

4.) BMW secondary air system, letting the car idle vs driving away will have NO effect on it. All it is is an air pump that puts fresh air into the exhaust system to keep emisions down. Its running either way the only difference is if it is running upstream of the cats or directly to the cats.

With regards to the secondary air pump that BMW employs. It is designed to help light off the cats quicker (bring them to operating temperature). Just like the double walled exhaust up to the cat (at least on the OBD II e36s), or placing the cats closer to the engine (newer cars). It does this by pumping air into the exhaust immediately before the cat for the first 90 seconds the car is running. The excess air helps burn any remaining fuel, and heats up the cats much quicker. This helps decrease the crucial startup time when the car pollutes the most, but the BMW manual suggest driving away immediately at reasonable speeds nonetheless.



I don't think there is any argument that short trips are harder on an engine, because it does not get hot enough to burn off carbon deposits, and bring everything up to temperature. It may also leave condensation in various systems increasing wear. That being said, letting a car idle for a long period of time will not damage it immediately, but it will slowly get more fuel in the oil, and will get more carbon deposits.



The note for driving gently, or letting a car idle a few minutes after driving it hard is very good. This prevents uneven temperature distribution, and heat soak on specific items in the block because it keeps coolant circulating for a while after. This is even more important for turbos. But just because it is a good idea to let it idle to cool down, does not necessarily mean it is a good idea to let it idle to warm up.



All that aside, follow what your owners manual says, just don't let it idle for 20 minutes to warm up, because that really is hard on the engine. As for idling all day, that is different once the engine is warm, although the temperature slowly will decrease. This commentary is entirely focused on gasoline entines, diesel is a little different.

 

[Big Leegr]

Well, it's about that time again.

As a follow up, the blue anti-frost pre-spray (With NASA technology!!) sucked. (IMHO) Name was "Ice Free" by "Bug-Z." I guess it works ok if the temp doesn't drop more than 5º below freezing, but if it's cold and frosty, it just freezes with the moisture. It says it protects to -20ºF (but rain can reduce effectiveness). Did not work for me.

I bought the yellow Prestone product last Spring on clearance, so I'll be trying it this winter.



As an aside, I see the new thing this year is enviro-friendly WW fluid and de-icer sprays based on ethanol instead of glycol alcohol. The WW fluid is rated to only -30º though, so not quite an extreme weather product. And not cheap either. In Canada a gallon of fluid is $5 and the spray is about $6 (which is actually cheaper than the Prestone de-icer (about $10) so I may try that too, especially if the pre-spray ice deterrent doesn't work this time either.)

 

[sixty7mustang22]

Re-Opened! lol



FWIW, after reading the thread and listening to all the non-definitive answers last winter, I simply started spraying a deicer onto a microfiber and wiping it onto the windshield. It worked well. It removed the ice and I wasn't spraying deicer everywhere especially near paint work nor rubber or plastic trim. Nore did I add any scratches or swirls to the glass over the winter. The only thing, though, is that it halves the life of anything like RainX or Aquapel that is on the windshield. I'll deal with that though.