RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
Accumulator said:
How so? It's a medium polish followed by a light polish.
Recommendations for Wet Sanding Lacquer Paint
- Thread starter Rob Tomlin
- Start date
How so? It's a medium polish followed by a light polish.
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Accumulator said:
That's exactly it. The simple fact was that we were not going to remove nearly enough of the crap that was in the paint simply with compound. Yes, we could have made the paint shiny, but there were so many other problems it really would not have looked very good.
The car needs to be repainted, so we really had very little to lose by wet sanding.
We removed a LOT of paint, so it did indeed of quite a bit of paint on it....except where it counts most, of course, the edges!
We did wind up with two spots where you can see the primer start to come through. That's the bad news. The good news is that it was my friend who did both of them!
I agree considering all the work we did. Remember, my friend was helping me, so it was a two man operation. We finished today, and it took a total of 17-18 hours over the weekend.
The final product was very good overall, considering the condition the paint was in. My friend is very happy with the end result, as it looks like a night and day improvement.
I will try to post pictures in the next day or two.
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Atlantic Euro said:
Not even close.
We specifically concentrated on one area of the car to see how far we could get just using an aggressive compound/pad combo (m95 with wool pad). It simply was not working. The paint had far too many issues. Not only did compounding not work, but 2000 grit paper wasn't enough, so we wound up using 1200!
Accumulator
Well-known member
RaskyR1 said:
I would consider M01 more aggressive than that (he "Medium" cut in the name carries no weight with me)...I can see doing M02 then M80, but I'd expect M01/M80 to be too big jump. Just guessing though as I've never used M01. M02 finished out well enough to be followed with M80 *if* it was worked properly, but otherwise even it was a big on the coarse side IME. And of course the paint in question always factors in...
Atlantic Euro
New member
Rob Tomlin said:
Wow - I'm guessing the pxi are going to be interesting! I'm looking forward to seeing them! :waxing:
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
Accumulator said:
Well it seemed to work very well on the paint and was actually a recommendation from Mike P. I could definitely see the red flags going up if I had gone from M84 or M85 to M80, but M01 is a 7 on the Meguiars cut scale and M80 is a 4. I realize there are a lot of factors that go into it and maybe it's a little apples to oranges, but if we can go from M105 which has a cut of 12 to M205 which has a cut of 4...I really don't feel it's a very big gap. I was also using a Solo "light cutting" wool pad if that makes a difference.
Accumulator
Well-known member
RaskyR1- OK, roger that. I do want to try that wool Solo pad.
I think I'm just prone to making smaller jumps than many do, and yeah...that often means I'm doing more steps. I don't even like doing a M105/cutting-to-M205/finishing jump.
I think I'm just prone to making smaller jumps than many do, and yeah...that often means I'm doing more steps. I don't even like doing a M105/cutting-to-M205/finishing jump.
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Accumulator said:
I've never used M205, but M105 finishes so good, I wouldn't see a problem doing that.
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
Accumulator said:
Nothing wrong with taking extra steps...and I think that just makes you a perfectionest!
I'm actually looking for a better wool pad. Any suggestions? The Solo's never seem to center very well (even using a centering tool) and I'm always getting vibrations...which drives me nuts. I like the size of them though vs the large W5000 pads and the 3M pads are just so dang expensive.
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Ok, I've processed a few pictures from our wet sanding event on the 66 Chevy Nova SS. Processing the pics is taking a while, so I thought I would start by posting the "before" pics as well as a few of the wet sanding.
Some of these will help show what NOT to do as much as what to do, as a few mistakes/learning experiences were made (as expected). That was the beauty of working on this car, the paint was in bad shape and needs to be re-painted, so it wouldn't be devastating if we made a mistake or two during the process.
The first few pics are pretty self explanatory and show what we were dealing with, which is a lot of scratches, swirls, stains etc:
This is the deck lid. Bad shape! And no, this is NOT after wet sanding!
The hood isn't any better. Yes, someone put a can of soda/beer on the hood, and it looks like it was there for a while:
The door shows stains, and a lack of shine and reflection:
Here is the roof. Lots of deep scratches, pitting, etc:
Some of these will help show what NOT to do as much as what to do, as a few mistakes/learning experiences were made (as expected). That was the beauty of working on this car, the paint was in bad shape and needs to be re-painted, so it wouldn't be devastating if we made a mistake or two during the process.
The first few pics are pretty self explanatory and show what we were dealing with, which is a lot of scratches, swirls, stains etc:
This is the deck lid. Bad shape! And no, this is NOT after wet sanding!
The hood isn't any better. Yes, someone put a can of soda/beer on the hood, and it looks like it was there for a while:
The door shows stains, and a lack of shine and reflection:
Here is the roof. Lots of deep scratches, pitting, etc:
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Another hood shot:
This angle shows how little reflection there is from the trees in the paint. And yes, it looks like someone used a brillo pad on the paint:
Taping the edges prior to wet sanding. Notice any mistakes here?:
After wet sanding. Anything stand out here?
Rinsing after wet sanding. Plenty of paint coming off the car:
A couple more pics after wet sanding:
I will try to post some of the "after" pictures tomorrow. Unfortunately the lighting between the before pics compared to the after pics was not the same because of the time of day, but I think they will still be useful in showing the differences.
This angle shows how little reflection there is from the trees in the paint. And yes, it looks like someone used a brillo pad on the paint:
Taping the edges prior to wet sanding. Notice any mistakes here?:
After wet sanding. Anything stand out here?
Rinsing after wet sanding. Plenty of paint coming off the car:
A couple more pics after wet sanding:
I will try to post some of the "after" pictures tomorrow. Unfortunately the lighting between the before pics compared to the after pics was not the same because of the time of day, but I think they will still be useful in showing the differences.
Accumulator
Well-known member
Yikes, that *did* need some aggressive work!
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
To my eyes, this looks like a cheap re-paint somewhere in it's history...
Old lacquer paint oxidizes and turns white, this looks like bad prep-work and actual cheap, or inexpensive paint on the car.
I could be wrong because I'm not standing there looking at it but that's what it looks like.
Old lacquer paint oxidizes and turns white, this looks like bad prep-work and actual cheap, or inexpensive paint on the car.
I could be wrong because I'm not standing there looking at it but that's what it looks like.
Accumulator
Well-known member
Mike Phillips- Yeah, that's almost certainly right. Only so much you can do with that, huh? But I bet the 1200 leveled it out fairly well...not as hopeless as it woulda been with b/c.
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
First, hats off to you for accepting this challenge! At some point you get to where you have nothing to lose. That is it looks so bad in it's current condition that taking a chance to sand and buff the paint out is your only alternative besides re-painting the entire car.
Thus is you make a mistake in the sanding or buffing step it's no big deal because you're back to getting it painted anyway and you might just get lucky.
If this is a re-paint and the paint is thin, the chances are you'll buff through somewhere and expose primer. It's easier to do than you think on softer, single stage paints.
I just wrote an article on sanding factory clear coats and not much of it applies here but here's one paragraph that does,
The article itself does go over hand sanding techniques so I'll post it in the AG Sponsored forum since it includes links to the AG store. It's also very long and probably one of the most anal retentive articles I've ever written.
Back to thin paint...
If the paint is thin, then anything you do is risky, so if you've already accepted the possibility that you could either sand through the color coat or buff through the color coat then maybe consider finishing out with some higher grit papers and use some quality papers too.
Properly hand saned, the paint should have a uniform dull look to it, it shouldn't look sanded and scratched.
Nikken goes to #2500 and #3000 and their #2000 is better than any run-of-the-mill #2000 wet/dry you find easily at auto parts stores. Yes, the quality of your paper makes a huge difference.
Another option is to re-sand using the Mirka Abralon system by hand or machine. Abralon goes to #4000 and I'll guarantee you, #4000 grit sanding marks buff out like butter. This makes the buffing process so so so easy...
I'm not going to recommend you use an electrical DA polisher to wet-sand due to the liability involved but others on this forum with less to lose in life and business will so you can make your own decision. Suffice to say, I've done it and it works just make your peace with God before using any power tool.
If you have access to a large air compressor, not the little 3.5 gallon ones most people have in their garage then get some Air DA Sanders and re-sanding by machine using the Abralon system or even the 3M Trizact system as it will rally make the buffing process faster and easier.
I've used the #2000 and #4000 Abralon by hand for curves and it works good for curves but you could also use it by hand for flat panels and it won't look any worse that what you have going right now.
As for a pad and product combo?
Rotary Buffer/W5500/M105/Pad Washer
All 4 are important. If you don't have a pad washer make sure you have a Spur and clean your pads often.
'm looking forward to your "After" shots, of course I recently wrote an article called,
The power in the after shots is created in the before shots
Which you've done a very good job of. :2thumbs:
Best of luck to you on the buff-out...
Thus is you make a mistake in the sanding or buffing step it's no big deal because you're back to getting it painted anyway and you might just get lucky.
If this is a re-paint and the paint is thin, the chances are you'll buff through somewhere and expose primer. It's easier to do than you think on softer, single stage paints.
I just wrote an article on sanding factory clear coats and not much of it applies here but here's one paragraph that does,
The article itself does go over hand sanding techniques so I'll post it in the AG Sponsored forum since it includes links to the AG store. It's also very long and probably one of the most anal retentive articles I've ever written.
Back to thin paint...
If the paint is thin, then anything you do is risky, so if you've already accepted the possibility that you could either sand through the color coat or buff through the color coat then maybe consider finishing out with some higher grit papers and use some quality papers too.
Properly hand saned, the paint should have a uniform dull look to it, it shouldn't look sanded and scratched.
Nikken goes to #2500 and #3000 and their #2000 is better than any run-of-the-mill #2000 wet/dry you find easily at auto parts stores. Yes, the quality of your paper makes a huge difference.
Another option is to re-sand using the Mirka Abralon system by hand or machine. Abralon goes to #4000 and I'll guarantee you, #4000 grit sanding marks buff out like butter. This makes the buffing process so so so easy...
I'm not going to recommend you use an electrical DA polisher to wet-sand due to the liability involved but others on this forum with less to lose in life and business will so you can make your own decision. Suffice to say, I've done it and it works just make your peace with God before using any power tool.
If you have access to a large air compressor, not the little 3.5 gallon ones most people have in their garage then get some Air DA Sanders and re-sanding by machine using the Abralon system or even the 3M Trizact system as it will rally make the buffing process faster and easier.
I've used the #2000 and #4000 Abralon by hand for curves and it works good for curves but you could also use it by hand for flat panels and it won't look any worse that what you have going right now.
As for a pad and product combo?
Rotary Buffer/W5500/M105/Pad Washer
All 4 are important. If you don't have a pad washer make sure you have a Spur and clean your pads often.
'm looking forward to your "After" shots, of course I recently wrote an article called,
The power in the after shots is created in the before shots
Which you've done a very good job of. :2thumbs:
Best of luck to you on the buff-out...
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
I just posted this new article to the AG Sponsored forum, here's the link to it...
http://www.autopia.org/forum/autoge...sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html
It's a little on the D.O. side...
http://www.autopia.org/forum/autoge...sanding-marks-griot-s-rop-wolfgang-twins.html
It's a little on the D.O. side...
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Thanks Mike! The value of this thread just went up significantly thanks to your posts.
Absolutely no question about it. We are sure that this paint job was done in someones garage. There are things in the paint that you can't even see in the pictures.
And you are right about the "not much to lose" on this one. It was a great car to experiment on.
I hope to get some after pics up tonight.
BTW, I find it interesting that you mention M105. I was told by a couple different people that it wasn't the best choice for lacquer. Well, I already had some M105, and I wound up using it to see what it would do (I also had some M95). The M105 worked great on the lacquer.
Mike Phillips said:To my eyes, this looks like a cheap re-paint somewhere in it's history...
Old lacquer paint oxidizes and turns white, this looks like bad prep-work and actual cheap, or inexpensive paint on the car.
I could be wrong because I'm not standing there looking at it but that's what it looks like.
Absolutely no question about it. We are sure that this paint job was done in someones garage. There are things in the paint that you can't even see in the pictures.
And you are right about the "not much to lose" on this one. It was a great car to experiment on.
I hope to get some after pics up tonight.
BTW, I find it interesting that you mention M105. I was told by a couple different people that it wasn't the best choice for lacquer. Well, I already had some M105, and I wound up using it to see what it would do (I also had some M95). The M105 worked great on the lacquer.
Mike_Phillips
Administrator
Rob Tomlin said:
To be honest, I never know what's going to work or not work until I do some testing first but this isn't old lacquer paint it's new lacquer paint and my guess is it's actually enamel paint and M105 has just a good a chance as working good on this as anything does.
Always test first to a small area of a car and once you dial in a process that works then tackle the entire car.
Myself I would have just sanded on small area and then dialed-in a cutting and polishing system to the small area before sanding the entire car but that's my old-fashioned, better safe than sorry approach I always practice no matter what I'm working on or what I'm doing to the paint.
I learned this lesson after watching a guy almost cry because he had to re-paint an entire Ferrari once he found out he couldn't get his sanding marks out of his brand new paint job, (he sanded down the entire car before trying to buff a small area). That was back in about 1991 and it left a strong impression on me that endures to this day...
I actually found some pictures of the car a while back...
Kind of goes with this,
"Try to learn from other's mistakes, you might not live long enough to make them all on your own"
But again, you got nothing to lose with this car...
Rob Tomlin
Lotus Exige S
Before moving on to the "after" pics, I would like to make a few comments on some of the work done to the point shown in the current pictures.
I did buy two of the soft sanding blocks to use with the wet sanding. I used mine, my friend did not. He preferred to use his hands, since he wanted to have more feedback to what the sanding was accomplishing.
As a result, you can see finger grooves on the side of the car that he wet sanded, such as shown here:
This doesn't look good, and I was worried we would have to sand more in order to get it more even. But, there was no problem/issue with these sanding marks being taken out with the rotary. It should be noted that this picture was taken after sanding with 1200, and we did go over it again with 2000 for the final sanding step.
I still definitely recommend using the block.
I did buy two of the soft sanding blocks to use with the wet sanding. I used mine, my friend did not. He preferred to use his hands, since he wanted to have more feedback to what the sanding was accomplishing.
As a result, you can see finger grooves on the side of the car that he wet sanded, such as shown here:
This doesn't look good, and I was worried we would have to sand more in order to get it more even. But, there was no problem/issue with these sanding marks being taken out with the rotary. It should be noted that this picture was taken after sanding with 1200, and we did go over it again with 2000 for the final sanding step.
I still definitely recommend using the block.