Real important to wait 12 hours...

DETAILKING said:
"Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure."



----------> Can you be more specific on what type of "chemical change" the air goes through? What does it change to? Or does the air just aid in the evaporation of solvent? Lot's of polymers are Air Cured, moisture cured,etc. Wouldn't you say that the Air and/or moisture (humidity) acts as a catalyst if an excess of it speeds up the curing process?





"BW...here's a thought...

Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard."



---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don't agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......
Click to expand...



Hey, DK, good to see you. I too would like to know what Mr. Chemist's thoughts are on what you've pointed out. It raises some interesting questions. (Never heard of air undergoing a chemical change when sped up or pressurized) :)





BW said:
I agree completely. It puts me off when people think all that matters are the results. But as evidenced above, knowing why things work, what things are made of, etc, can save time and improve results.
Click to expand...



Werd. What I've experienced is that when a product may not stand on its own merits, we suddenly hear, "It's not important what's in it or why it works, it just does!" Or, when durability sucks we hear, "I don't care how durable it is, I wax my car every 25 minutes!" Or, when durability is awesome, we hear, "Yeah, but the optics suck."



You know, somewhere I've got a Golfer's Excuse Towel... I should make a detailer's excuse towel... :D
 
It seems like Mr. Chemist is avoiding DK's post. Come on Mr., you seem to know quite a bit. Please enlighten us! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



Bill. (biting my tongue and trying very hard to be nice) :wavey
 
Play nice everybody....





Keep the sarcasm down and don't start arguing or try to show one another up - we've had enough of that already! :argue
 
Cal said:
Mr. Chemist



You said:





Does this mean I should steer clear of "ye-olde" Klasse All-In-One which I just applied to my baby today? On the bottle it says:

'It polishes to "WET-LOOK" shine and locks into the paint, seals and protects with an elastic non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant acrylic finish.'



You've got me worried, but please bear with me and be kind... I'm only an apprentice and may have misunderstood. :o



Happy driving!

Cal
Click to expand...



Don't worry, KLASSE AIO is safe for your paint. The first acrylics were nothing more than floor wax. They where SO durable, they would build up over time and yellow with UV light exposure. That gave acrylics a bad rap and polymers too as they were widely introduced over the past 5 yrs.



Hope this helps!
 
BW said:
Therefore, we can conclude that Bill87GN can immediately top NXT with a carnauba.
Click to expand...



I came upon this on another thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=403438



4DSC said:
Not waiting for a product to cure or set up properly, regardless if it's a synthetic or a carnauba, also increases the chances that when you go to apply a second coat or another topper product, you will end up distrupting or dissolving the previous layer.



This is similar to the argument that you can't layer carnauba and only end up smearing around or re-liquefying previous coats.
Click to expand...



... but it made me think a bit more. If NXT doesn't settle down, then actually you're not 'topping' NXT, but rather 'mixing' it, similar to applying several different carnauba waxes during one detail.
 
BW said:
I came upon this on another thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=403438







... but it made me think a bit more. If NXT doesn't settle down, then actually you're not 'topping' NXT, but rather 'mixing' it, similar to applying several different carnauba waxes during one detail.
Click to expand...



Ah ha! Could that be how glazes work? Perhaps the wax doesn't seal in the glaze, but rather the glaze and the wax mix together. AFAIK, glaze doesn't cure. Perhaps thats why glaze + SG or Z never works. And perhaps this explains why the initial appearance of glazes diminish so quickly, even though some wax characteristics (beading, etc) remain.



What do you guys think?
 
Not sure if this helps, but my experience has taught me not to put on too many layers of carnauba at one time. You could put on 5 coats of your favorite wax one saturday, and you will find that the next day when it rains, it would've washed off just as quickly as a single fresh coat of wax.



On the other hand, a properly applied single coat of wax that has been allowed to dry will last a surprisingly long time! Honest! Letting the first layer of carnauba dry a little will also promote a deeper resolution and (should I use the word...)...layering of additional coats, as long as you observe your steps by not piling on too much stuff at one time.



BTW: I only use the glaze as a prep for the wax. Thus I make the final wax produce the shine and resolution, instead of a glaze. If you mean sealant in terms of a synthetic finish coat, then that's different. You are actually using the glaze, if its a finish coat, like you would with wax.
 
lbls1 said:
Not sure if this helps, but my experience has taught me not to put on too many layers of carnauba at one time. You could put on 5 coats of your favorite wax one saturday, and you will find that the next day when it rains, it would've washed off just as quickly as a single fresh coat of wax.



On the other hand, a properly applied single coat of wax that has been allowed to dry will last a surprisingly long time! Honest! Letting the first layer of carnauba dry a little will also promote a deeper resolution and (should I use the word...)...layering of additional coats, as long as you observe your steps by not piling on too much stuff at one time.



BTW: I only use the glaze as a prep for the wax. Thus I make the final wax produce the shine and resolution, instead of a glaze. If you mean sealant in terms of a synthetic finish coat, then that's different. You are actually using the glaze, if its a finish coat, like you would with wax.
Click to expand...



Interesting! What wax do you use? Do you think it has anything to do with added polymers or silicones?



(As you can tell, I'm feeling hyper tonight...)
 
I came to this forum to hopefully learn a few things and share some of what I have learned over the years.



If someone’s post is at all offensive to me, I will not respond. Just that simple. If you ask a question of me that I actually know the answer to, and your motives are sincere...then great.



Otherwise, as I have stated...I don’t want to become entertainment and engage in what I will now call, chemical warfare. :argue
 
I'm sort of confused. Obviously, Jon's post struck a nerve, so you responded to clarify the potentially confusing points. Yet, when a few of us asked you to clarify what you meant by a few of your points, it's chemical warfare?



Seriously - I am interested in what you had to say, but like DK, was a little confused/curious about a few of the points raised. I hope that our inquiries weren't seen as abrasive or confrontational, because that most certainly wasn't the point.
 
Mr. Chemist,



I don't see anyone playing "chemical warfare" with you. You posted some information and some of our more knowledgeable members have chosen to debate it. That's what this forum is all about. I did, however, see you blast another forum member over terminology. If you reserve the right to question other member’s posts then don't take offense and avoid the issue when other members question yours. Afterall, it's all in the interest of furthering knowledge, not attacking or flaming folks.
 
BradE said:
I did, however, see you blast another forum member over terminology. If you reserve the right to question other member’s posts then don't take offense and avoid the issue when other members question yours.
Click to expand...



In other words, don't be such an ''Intermezzo" . LOL, j/k
 
Mr. Chemist was probably referring to my post. Sorry guys, I can't help myself sometimes. :o



Mr. C, my apologies for offending you. Now let's get back to the topic at hand. Can you provide your insight with respect to DK's questions?



Thank you.



Bill.
 
Mr. Chemist,



Your probation period is waved. You are NOW an important Technical Contributing member of Autopia forum. Welcome to the cyberworld. Don't be shy, you'll get used to it...Go ahead and educate us (at least me)....:xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs
 
Let's take one at a time...the chemical composition of air changes during the evaporative process. Think of smog.



This whole cross-linking discussion, has me confused though. So I'm going to ask those who seem to be "up" on this cross linking theory, explain it to me.



The desk that I am sitting at is comprised of polymers...that appear to be very tightly cross linked. When people say that polymers in a wax completely cross link...I'm not sure I understand what that means? It seems that those products that have "cross linking polymers" that "completely cross link" are viewed as hard, cured, long lasting etc. Yet they are flexible enough not to chip, fade and peel. If I am using "soft polymers" that completely "cross link" would that be as tough as a harder "polymer" that is not completely cross linked? Carnauba wax, by the way is "polymer", it is a natural product as opposed to a synthetic, but perhaps for discussion I need to adjust my concept of polymer? So, what is a polymer...in this discussion?



I don’t know of a wax or polish formula that does not contain some oils. And I do believe that the addition of certain oils or products with similar characteristics can be successfully formulated into a car wax or polish without significant detriment to it's longevity. There are those who believe that longevity means weeks and those who think longevity means months. And then longevity is subject to, environment, washing, types of soaps, types of towels...etc etc.....car covers...on and on. Then there is the question of...how does it look? Great, we have now created this hard polymer coating that will last for 6 months...but...does it get scratched and reflect the light poorly?..does it wear evenly on all panels? When it starts to look bad...regardless of it's longevity IMHO...I think we need to wax again. But I'm a wax nut....when my truck starts to look slightly dull...I'm on it.
 
Mr. Chemist said:
Let's take one at a time...the chemical composition of air changes during the evaporative process. Think of smog.



This whole cross-linking discussion, has me confused though. So I'm going to ask those who seem to be "up" on this cross linking theory, explain it to me.



The desk that I am sitting at is comprised of polymers...that appear to be very tightly cross linked. When people say that polymers in a wax completely cross link...I'm not sure I understand what that means? It seems that those products that have "cross linking polymers" that "completely cross link" are viewed as hard, cured, long lasting etc. Yet they are flexible enough not to chip, fade and peel. If I am using "soft polymers" that completely "cross link" would that be as tough as a harder "polymer" that is not completely cross linked? Carnauba wax, by the way is "polymer", it is a natural product as opposed to a synthetic, but perhaps for discussion I need to adjust my concept of polymer? So, what is a polymer...in this discussion?



I don’t know of a wax or polish formula that does not contain some oils. And I do believe that the addition of certain oils or products with similar characteristics can be successfully formulated into a car wax or polish without significant detriment to it's longevity. There are those who believe that longevity means weeks and those who think longevity means months. And then longevity is subject to, environment, washing, types of soaps, types of towels...etc etc.....car covers...on and on. Then there is the question of...how does it look? Great, we have now created this hard polymer coating that will last for 6 months...but...does it get scratched and reflect the light poorly?..does it wear evenly on all panels? When it starts to look bad...regardless of it's longevity IMHO...I think we need to wax again. But I'm a wax nut....when my truck starts to look slightly dull...I'm on it.
Click to expand...



In a chemical change, chemical bonds are broken or formed. The chemical composition of air changes (at the surface of the product) as the solvents evaporate, but the air composition (oxygen, nitrogen) ratios are still the same. It's more like a mixing than a chemical change in the air as no "bonds" have been broken or formed. The air contains it's normal constituents plus the vapors of any evaporated solvent.



Crosslinking isn't a theory, it's the chemistry behind polymer systems. In a most classic example there are 2 components: A "resin" and a "hardener" Anyone ever play with a two part epoxy adhesive? Well some systems come in "one part" with all ingredients premixed (polyurethane or silicone sealants for construction, windshield adhesive, caulking,etc). Typically a solvent hinders curing in the tube or bottle and a mechanism such as "air" or "moisture" starts the curing or crosslinking process. Note this is just one example of MANY MANY different forms and applications of polymer systems.....there are many.



I have experience with adding "fillers" into systems in order to create more volume (less expensive product) and even to alter the physical properties of the final product. If an oil is added (still wondering what benefit it has in a polymer system?!?!?!?!?) how does the polymer maintain it's functionality? Many of us have had bad experiences when applying a polymer product over an oil based product which has "fluid" properties.



I think the point is valid that polymer chemistry opens a new can of worms and is not as "straight forward" as the classic wax formulations we all know and use.
 
I'm not even a chemistry major, never mind a chemist, but couldn't petroleum distilates be classified as oils? (derived from crude oil) :nixweiss



This is really interesting! I just hope I'll be able to keep following along without hurting my brain!:o
 
sweet, I love this thread :D. My chemistry is really rusty (practically a chem minor in undergrad), but these posts are very informative. Please continue!!

:bounce



btw, the closest I've come to polymers was when we made PVC in chem lab.
 
BigLeegr said:
I'm not even a chemistry major, never mind a chemist, but couldn't petroleum distilates be classified as oils? (derived from crude oil) :nixweiss



This is really interesting! I just hope I'll be able to keep following along without hurting my brain!:o
Click to expand...



Just like polymers, there are many different types of "petroleum distillates." The types used in wax/polish formulations, for the most part, are very volatile. This means they have a very low vapor pressure and evaporate very quickly. Isopropyl alcoh., Acetone, Ethanol, Kerosene, Naptha are all examples of volatile petroleum distillates. The silicone oils that you often see in wax formulations are the complete opposite. They have a very HIGH VAPOR pressure and boiling point....similar to the olive oil you use on the stove top.......



Hope this helps
 
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