Real important to wait 12 hours...
- Thread starter Bill87GN
- Start date
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
~ One man’s opinion / observations ~
Q: Is it real important to wait 12+ hours between topping NXT with a carnuba?
A: Yes
Q: What will be the problems if I don't?
A: Product will not cross-link (cure) and durability will be compromised.
Bonding and Cross-Linking Process:
First, and most importantly, thoroughly prepare your paint film surface, wash, use detailer's clay, polish and apply a pre-wax Cleaner
Adherence- the application of a thin even film of product to the paint film surface bonds by surface tension
Drying- the primary catalyst is an aerobic process so sufficient drying time should be allowed. This will vary in accordance with the product formulation, temperature and humidity of the ambient air.
Removal- remove product residue by buffing, using a clean dry towel and a light even pressure
Cross-linking – allow sufficient time (anything from 12 to 72 hours dependant upon product formulation) to elapse to enable product to cross-link (cure) before the application of further layers or other products. Avoid rain or washing vehicle until fully cured.
~Hope this helps ~
Knowledge unshared is experience wasted
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
Q: Is it real important to wait 12+ hours between topping NXT with a carnuba?
A: Yes
Q: What will be the problems if I don't?
A: Product will not cross-link (cure) and durability will be compromised.
Bonding and Cross-Linking Process:
First, and most importantly, thoroughly prepare your paint film surface, wash, use detailer's clay, polish and apply a pre-wax Cleaner
Adherence- the application of a thin even film of product to the paint film surface bonds by surface tension
Drying- the primary catalyst is an aerobic process so sufficient drying time should be allowed. This will vary in accordance with the product formulation, temperature and humidity of the ambient air.
Removal- remove product residue by buffing, using a clean dry towel and a light even pressure
Cross-linking – allow sufficient time (anything from 12 to 72 hours dependant upon product formulation) to elapse to enable product to cross-link (cure) before the application of further layers or other products. Avoid rain or washing vehicle until fully cured.
~Hope this helps ~
Knowledge unshared is experience wasted
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
Mr. Chemist
New member
Huh?
Mr. Chemist
New member
Using the most effective terms to answer the initial question.... it may be important with some products, that you allow them to dry completely before applying another coating.
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
~ One man’s opinion / observations ~
I have always tried to find out not just “How it works, but also “Why� it works. With that in mind I probably respond with more detail than some think is necessary. But I try to write in a way that helps the reader to understand not only "How" to do something, but "Why" they are doing it.
If the terminology is incorrect please feel free to offer your opinion, so we may all learn something.
I’m just a dumb Architect, so I have always tried to learn from other people. Even after five decades of detailing, the more I learn, the more I realize what I don’t know, and at some point, I hope to have learned enough to realize that I know nothing at all. I
~Hope this helps ~
Knowledge unshared is experience wasted
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
I have always tried to find out not just “How it works, but also “Why� it works. With that in mind I probably respond with more detail than some think is necessary. But I try to write in a way that helps the reader to understand not only "How" to do something, but "Why" they are doing it.
If the terminology is incorrect please feel free to offer your opinion, so we may all learn something.
I’m just a dumb Architect, so I have always tried to learn from other people. Even after five decades of detailing, the more I learn, the more I realize what I don’t know, and at some point, I hope to have learned enough to realize that I know nothing at all. I
~Hope this helps ~
Knowledge unshared is experience wasted
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
imported_memnuts
New member
TOGWT said:
Jon extremely profundus and so very true. Every answer opens the doors to many questions. :xyxthumbs
TOGWT said:
One thing to point out, though, is that these rules apply only to crosslinking, polymer sealants like SG or Z. My suspicion is that NXT is not a crosslinking, polymer sealant, and therefore there's no need for Bill87GN to wait 24 hours before topping it with wax. And here's why:
DETAILKING said:
I agree completely. It puts me off when people think all that matters are the results. But as evidenced above, knowing why things work, what things are made of, etc, can save time and improve results.
Mr. Chemist
New member
Well...I'm just a dumb ol formulator of car care products...but I guess I'll just have to eat some crow here..I never should have posted "Huh?"
It's started far too much trouble. What I did do, was PM TOGWT, with what I believe to be some serious misuse of the English language, specifically chemical terminology...since he has asked me to share this with you...here goes.
------------------
"I'm a bit confused about some of the terminology used in your post about letting NXT cure for 12 hours before applying a carnauba wax topper.
Although I believe your advice and initial reasoning to be sound, the verbiage used to describe the simple process of drying and curing is confusing.
1. Paint film surface
Do you mean paint?
2. Bonds by surface tension?
Surface tension has to do with liquids and their flowing properties as affected by either their composition or the substrate upon which they are placed and has nothing to do with bonding.
Bonding in simple terms is having stuff stick either together, or in the case of polishes and waxes…to the paint.
3. Catalyst is a process?
No, a catalyst is a substance of which a fractional percentage notably affects the rate of a chemical reaction, without itself being consumed or undergoing a chemical change. Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure.
4. Aerobic?
This is a biology term used to describe types of bacteria and what they need to thrive, oxygen. To use the term in the realm of car care is confusing.
You had it right at the beginning of your post….the proper word for the process is to cure.
5. “Ambient air�
Is there any other kind around a car? I have heard of ambient temperature, which is the temperature of a particular environment.
I think we do our fellow enthusiasts a greater service when we speak in terms that can be readily understood and that we have a firm understanding of."
--------------------
Now...I don’t want to cause a fuss, but I figure if your going teach someone something.... use the right words and terms. Other wise we'll have a bunch of bacteria running around trying to make car wax dry....wait a minute we may be on to something here....
Seriously...using chemical terms incorrectly does not educate, it miss-informs.
Personally I don’t want to become a chemistry teacher, at this point, I prefer to emphasize process and product. I'm just a formulator, I'll leave that education stuff up to the chemical engineers...but if I see something that is really out of whack...I will mention it. Hopefully in the future I will get better at it..but hey I’m a nubi here. This is not as much fun as my beakers.
It's started far too much trouble. What I did do, was PM TOGWT, with what I believe to be some serious misuse of the English language, specifically chemical terminology...since he has asked me to share this with you...here goes.
------------------
"I'm a bit confused about some of the terminology used in your post about letting NXT cure for 12 hours before applying a carnauba wax topper.
Although I believe your advice and initial reasoning to be sound, the verbiage used to describe the simple process of drying and curing is confusing.
1. Paint film surface
Do you mean paint?
2. Bonds by surface tension?
Surface tension has to do with liquids and their flowing properties as affected by either their composition or the substrate upon which they are placed and has nothing to do with bonding.
Bonding in simple terms is having stuff stick either together, or in the case of polishes and waxes…to the paint.
3. Catalyst is a process?
No, a catalyst is a substance of which a fractional percentage notably affects the rate of a chemical reaction, without itself being consumed or undergoing a chemical change. Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure.
4. Aerobic?
This is a biology term used to describe types of bacteria and what they need to thrive, oxygen. To use the term in the realm of car care is confusing.
You had it right at the beginning of your post….the proper word for the process is to cure.
5. “Ambient air�
Is there any other kind around a car? I have heard of ambient temperature, which is the temperature of a particular environment.
I think we do our fellow enthusiasts a greater service when we speak in terms that can be readily understood and that we have a firm understanding of."
--------------------
Now...I don’t want to cause a fuss, but I figure if your going teach someone something.... use the right words and terms. Other wise we'll have a bunch of bacteria running around trying to make car wax dry....wait a minute we may be on to something here....
Seriously...using chemical terms incorrectly does not educate, it miss-informs.
Personally I don’t want to become a chemistry teacher, at this point, I prefer to emphasize process and product. I'm just a formulator, I'll leave that education stuff up to the chemical engineers...but if I see something that is really out of whack...I will mention it. Hopefully in the future I will get better at it..but hey I’m a nubi here. This is not as much fun as my beakers.
Mr. Chemist
New member
BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.
sgo
New member
Mr. Chemist said:
Great post! Very valid points. However, your answer brings up a slighly off-topic question. What's the difference between a "formulator" and a "chemical engineer?"
DETAILKING
New member
Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure.
----------> Can you be more specific on what type of "chemical change" the air goes through? What does it change to? Or does the air just aid in the evaporation of solvent? Lot's of polymers are Air Cured, moisture cured,etc. Wouldn't you say that the Air and/or moisture (humidity) acts as a catalyst if an excess of it speeds up the curing process?
BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.
---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don't agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......
----------> Can you be more specific on what type of "chemical change" the air goes through? What does it change to? Or does the air just aid in the evaporation of solvent? Lot's of polymers are Air Cured, moisture cured,etc. Wouldn't you say that the Air and/or moisture (humidity) acts as a catalyst if an excess of it speeds up the curing process?
BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.
---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don't agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......
DETAILKING
New member
SteveOst said:
A Formulator is typically a chemist that is involved in the R+D, the product development, testing, and final formulation on a laboratory "bench-top" scale. A chemical engineer is the one that takes that "recipe" and develops a process design and industrial equipment to manufacture it on a larger scale, with some degree of automation. I know this....it's what I do!
Mr. Chemist
You said:
Does this mean I should steer clear of "ye-olde" Klasse All-In-One which I just applied to my baby today? On the bottle it says:
'It polishes to "WET-LOOK" shine and locks into the paint, seals and protects with an elastic non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant acrylic finish.'
You've got me worried, but please bear with me and be kind... I'm only an apprentice and may have misunderstood.
Happy driving!
Cal
You said:
Does this mean I should steer clear of "ye-olde" Klasse All-In-One which I just applied to my baby today? On the bottle it says:
'It polishes to "WET-LOOK" shine and locks into the paint, seals and protects with an elastic non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant acrylic finish.'
You've got me worried, but please bear with me and be kind... I'm only an apprentice and may have misunderstood.
Happy driving!
Cal
Mr. Chemist
New member
Cal...no, dont worry, just because a product has some acrylic in it does not mean it's going to hardend up and chip. As with all chemical families, there are many, many different "acrylic" raw materials with different attributes.