Questions For White Car Owners…. (long)

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imported_Intermezzo

New member
I had a question for any Autopians here with white cars (Jngr, BW, et. al.). My little sister bought a new Taffeta White Civic LX coupe over the weekend and we got started on the detailing right away.



Wash with Z-7

Clay with Z-18 (OGSO as lube)

Polish with P21S GEPC

Wax with P21S Carnauba



I always knew that on white cars, embedded contaminants are VERY visible the moment they start rusting on the car. What I didn’t know is just how much pressure is required to completely remove the rusty particles. Normally when I clay a car, I use light pressure which is sufficient to make the surface feel glassy smooth. When claying my sister’s new car, using light pressure also made the surface feel extremely smooth, however on many areas, it didn’t ‘visibly remove’ the embedded contaminants….even though the surface ‘felt’ smoothened out. I discovered that it took a good amount of pressure and several passes to make ALL the embedded rusty particles come out. This experience has now made me worried that perhaps I haven’t been claying my own silver and black cars properly. OR, perhaps I’ve induced a lot of scratches on my sister’s new white car which just aren’t visible under the light we were working. Another thing I’ve considered is that perhaps I shouldn’t be too worried about the visibility of those tiny little embedded particles, which can only be detected upon very close inspection.



So my questions to anyone here with white (or even yellow) cars are:



1. How much pressure do you use when claying your white car so that embedded contaminants are no longer visible? A search here on Autopia would seem to indicate that using less pressure is more desirable, however I remember from way way back that the Erazur site tells us to use a good amount of pressure.



2. Should I even be worried about the visibility of these tiny spots as long as the surface feels glassy smooth?



Another thing this experience reminded me of was how highly everyone thought of Clay Magic. I’ve never been a fan of CM because of the way it stuck to my hands and the residue it sometimes leaves, but I do feel that it picks up contaminants better than Z-18. Perhaps it took a detail session with a white car to realize how well CM works? So my final question would be:



3. Would using CM instead of Z-18 (which is really rubbery) require less pressure to visibly remove all contaminants.



Any thoughts or comments would be highly appreciated. Thanks.



Tony
 
I have my flame suit on so here it goes:(



I have had many white vehicles over the years and know exactly what you are talking about. I realize that most people here like CM, Zaino, or Mother's(I like this one), I have found that the best clay to take off those little specks is with using a Meguiar's clay bar!:eek: For some reason, the Meg works very well with moderate pressure.



Yup, you probably put scratches in the paint similar to the halo effect from a buffer or a dirty mitt. You will need to do a light compound with Meg's DACP or FI-II, as you know well.



A friend of my from an autobody used to use a wax remover(a commercial product) to take the particles off. But, it is very dangerous to do so. I saw a lot of little scratches in his white truck. Apparently, the wax remover softened his paint, thereby causing marks as he rub the cleaner over the paint(sort of like what laquer thinner will do if left on for a while).



I would try and get the rest off and be prepared to to some light to moderate compounding with a buffer!



Good Luck!!:xyxthumbs
 
My Integra is that very color of white and I've had that very problem. It did take several passes and a little more pressure than usual to get some of those particles out. I didn't notice any extra scratches in the finish after I got through with it. I think if you are using a clean clay bar and are careful then it can be done with ease.



To those who say that Black is the final exam in detailing I would have to say that sometimes White can be just as tough. Problems like this one don't show up as easily on black and therefore it can be overlooked for a long time before it becomes a visible problem. White is a tough color to work with. Not on the same level as black, but I guess all colors have their challanges.



I was hoping you would use Z on it so I could see what my car will look like this spring. Why didn't you break out the good stuff for the poor little Civ? :D I'm looking forward to pics of your handiwork. :xyxthumbs
 
Hotford,



I'll examine the car closely for swirls the next time I get a chance to. I might try out the Meguiar's claybar also.



Jngrbrd,



P21S is the good stuff. :) Actually, we had a hard time deciding between the two....we weighed the pros and cons of each product and ultimately the dust-attraction factor put P21S over the top. Zaino has a tendency to attract a lot of dust whereas P21S is famous for it's 'dust-repellency'.



You're right about white.... It's definitely not the "easy-to-detail" color that I once thought it was! It's driving me nuts...thinking about how contaminants will be visible on the car again probably in a few months!
 
if I may suggest, if you've only tried the blue CM bar, try the red, its additional cutting ability may even surpass the meguiar's bar by a little bit. I haven't done a direct compairison yet, so I can't be sure.



oh and joed: what if a vanilla moose ran into your car? Theoretically it would shine more :p (scottwax's glaze stuff)
 
Intermezzo- If the "rust" spots keep coming back, you might want to try AutoInt's ABC system. It worked well for me.



I use a different clay (Griot's) but I can rub pretty hard without scratching.



And you're not the only one who finds clay sticks to skin. I use a pair of latex or rubber gloves while claying.
 
Intermezzo said:
1. How much pressure do you use when claying your white car so that embedded contaminants are no longer visible? A search here on Autopia would seem to indicate that using less pressure is more desirable, however I remember from way way back that the Erazur site tells us to use a good amount of pressure.
Click to expand...



I know what you mean. I used to have a similar dilemma when I was concerned that I would “seal� in these dot-sized contaminates with Zaino. I had a paranoia moment when I refused to just "layer on" the Z bi-weelky, like everyone else. I hd to either clay off these spots (before adding a layer) or do a “strip and re-Z" process every 3 months. The paint was smooth, but these dots made me concerned about sealing in these contaiminates.



I find that light pressure works well to smoothe out the paint, and moderate rubbing works well to remove the visible contaminates. Because the majority of these are low down near the wheels and bumpers, I don't worry too much about marring the lower parts that no one can see. I like to use as little pressure as possible, but as much as neccessary.



Intermezzo said:
2. Should I even be worried about the visibility of these tiny spots as long as the surface feels glassy smooth?
Click to expand...



I wouldn’t stress over it. I would be concerned if you had a white show-car that rarely gets driven, but for a daily driver, it is fine. Within several months, I wouldn’t be surprised if the contaminates will reappear again. You might want to consider the ABC system to neutralize completely the paint.



Intermezzo said:
3. Would using CM instead of Z-18 (which is really rubbery) require less pressure to visibly remove all contaminants.
Click to expand...



I did not have the opportunity to compare Z-18 and CM blue at the same time, so I can't comment. But if you feel that CM picks up the contaminates more effectively, then yes, you are theoretically using less pressure.



I also want to mention that the contaminates seemed to be less visible during washes when I was using Blackfire II. The oiliness seemed to let the dots -> "." come off easily. I also QD'd daily, so whatever was stuck on, was "wiped" off while it was still fresh.



Keep us updated!



~bw
 
Intermezzo, I know exactly what you mean. Those spots drive me crazy. I've seen you over on corvetteforum, so I suspect you are familiar with the aerodynamics of the C5 whereby the rear fascia is dusty/dirty immediately upon driving. That is where most of my stubborn spots are.



I've found with claying just what you have said - it feels smooth after a pass with light pressure, but some of those spots remain nonetheless. Concentrating on those spots while gradually applying additional pressure over repeated pasees is the only solution I have found. I have not noticed any scratching problems, even on the soft C5 paint. Absent a dirty bar or ridiculous pressure, I'd say increase the pressure and make multiple passes, and see what works.



It is painstaking to get to all of the spots, especially how once you know they're there, they will haunt you until they're gone. I have not experimented with various clay bars yet, I have only used Mothers. I picked up some Zaino bars for my spring cleaning. We'll see how they compare.



btw - Jngr- if you're curious about Zaino results on white, check out this pic:



picture_0434.jpg




I have tons more sitting on my computer if you'd like to see them.
 
Might you consider taking it back to the dealer for examination ? I cant understand why there would be so many "defects" in the paint at this early stage of ownership. I mean were talking rust ??? Im sure theres not one in here, who even goes window shopping, and doesnt rub the back of their hand across a nice shiny hood or fender. We all know theres a presence of contaminants on every new car, with the exception of maybe MB's, Lexus, Infinitis, etc.....but it sounds like your going thru and extraordinary amount of work, ,for a "new" civic ! :bounce

I think I'd be upset if after all that work, and still no satisfaction....??:nixweiss
 
While everyone was on the Zaino bandwagon, I was sitting with a white 300zx that despite proper prep and several layers of z2 was filled with imbeded dirt particles. You try to mention cleaners on this forum and people would freak, like it was harmful.



Well it always seemed more harmful to me to use too much presure with z2 or some other cleanerless product to try and remove this dirt than it did to use a product with cleaners in it.



If I was seeing this residual dirt with my white car it must be present on my other cars too. Thats why I always use a cleaner wax as a topper over layers of Zaino. So far so good using Powershine and Mothers products over Zaino and Finish First.



I use a clay from my local Pro- Products distributer when I'm in town, it works well. You may try using a combination of cleaners with your clay so you soften the bond of the contaiminants making the clay job easier.



Layers of Zaino Like clear coats need to be cleaned. I would use DACP or even p-40( PRO) before I would use any clay though. Even the mildest clay properly lubricated leaves some light marring p-40 and DACP dont. I Think Zaino got us on the Clay thing too much when often we should use a cleaner instead.
 
Thanks for your suggestions everyone!! I feel better knowing that some of you take a few extra liberties in the amount of pressure used when claying. I'll experiment with a few different claybars including the ones suggested here.



Patrick, maybe I used the wrong word when I said "rust spots". I was just trying to describe 'normal' embedded contaminants from brake-dust, rail-dust, pollution, etc. As with just about every other dealer lot I've seen, the place where this car was purchased also had an outdoor, uncovered lot.



As a few of you have suggested, perhaps an ABC purchase might also be in order. If these spots are so hard to completely remove on a surface in which they are clearly visible, there's no reason why it shouldn't be the same on my own black and silver cars.



Also, now that I have access to a new white car, this sounds like a great opportunity for me to test which waxes and sealants slow the re-appearance of these embedded particles the best.



Thanks again everyone.
 
stuart hicks said:
Layers of Zaino Like clear coats need to be cleaned. I would use DACP or even p-40( PRO) before I would use any clay though. Even the mildest clay properly lubricated leaves some light marring p-40 and DACP dont. I Think Zaino got us on the Clay thing too much when often we should use a cleaner instead.
Click to expand...



Shouldn't the claying come before the cleaning/polishing steps? I was always under the impression (from what I've read as well as experienced) that compounding doesn't do much for embedded contaminants?
 
I have been a professional detailer for eleven years now and I like many pros have a different perspective on clay and it's place in the detailers arsenal.



To remove scratches, acid rain, oxidation etc. I use I high speed rotary. Any contaimanants would be removed with this process as well. The clay was always used as something to remove overspray. Often I would get calls from painters that wanted me to clay 30 or 40 cars that had paint on them from a paint job at an apartment complex. Sure it left some very light marring but it was a lot better than a car full of overspray. .



So a few years ago when people like clay majic and others started putting out clays for the retail market I was confused about what the purpose was. To make your car feel smooth? Any smoothnes is at the expense of light marring that was usally covered up with fillers and glazes, but people really took to this idea. That same smoothness can be had by using a rotory properly followed by the right combo of polishes glazes and pads in the right order then topped with a 22 pound orbital buffer.



So why sell something to people that is going to give them a false sense of professionalism? Now don't get me wrong I sometimes use the clay on my white 300zx on the rear facia where the soot from the muffler embeds into the paint. But beyond that Its just and paint overspray removal product. I cringe everytime I see some new vette use that stuff in order to prep their brand new car because i know the light marring it leaves behind. If you don't have a rotory you not going to fully get it out.
 
stuart hicks said:
If I was seeing this residual dirt with my white car it must be present on my other cars too. Thats why I always use a cleaner wax as a topper over layers of Zaino. So far so good using Powershine and Mothers products over Zaino and Finish First.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I'm misreading, but you use a cleaner wax on top of Zaino? Wouldn't the mild abrasives or chemical cleaners strip the Z layers, leaving only the protection left by the one-step cleaner? I was under the impression that abrasive-free "non-cleaner" waxes (P21S/S100, Souveran, etc.) should be used as sealant toppers to preserve the sealant protection . . .



:nixweiss



I cringe evertime I see some new vette use that stuff in order to prep their brand new car because i know the light marring it leaves behind. If you don't have a rotory you not going to fully get it out.
Click to expand...
I'm going to have to politely disagree here . . . IMO, a rotary is not required to remove swirls, or the light marring left by clay. The PC, or even hand application of the correct products will do the job (albeit with much more time invested, and possibly multiple passes).



Tort
 
I'm just trying to point out that many people who don't want to use any type of cleaner on their car because of abrasiveness think nothing of using clay which is at least as abrasive.



The problem with clay is not that so much the light marring all over your car but the one or two deeper scratches you will eventually get from removing a contaimanant and then rubbing it in to your car again.



This is similar to the type of scratching you get from a California Water Blade. Again not big scratches all over the car, but after a few uses you may find one or two scrapes.



These could be avoided by using cleaners that remove and dissolve dirt and light contaminants in lieu of clay
 
My point with Zaino is that like a Clear coat the Zaino needs cleaning.



I thought this thread would help people see my point.



On a white car that has layers of Zaino, dirt will often embed itself into the layers.



If you try Just Zaino you can't get the all dirt out. The dirt that does come out did so only after using too much presure. Don't get me wrong the Zaino is still there (tight beads are still present) but it is contaiminated with embeded dirt.



Because of this I started using cleaner waxes to remove the embeded dirt. I thought this may remove the layers too, but to my delight the tight little beads continued.



If this dirt is seen on the white cars it must be present on the others colors as well but I'm just not seeing it.



Just becasue Zaino is there doesn't mean it doesn't become contaiminated with dirt. If the cleaner wax had stripped the Zaino that would be fine beacuse I don't want to use it if it holds dirt that can't be cleaned without removing it. But Luckily I found you can clean this stuff without removing it.
 
Stuart,



Good points. I personally do not have a problem with using a compound on a new car. But using a rotary on a new car? Isn't that a bit harsh? Also, if you plan on using a rotary to remove embedded contaminants every time it's needed (except of course when you spot clay the rear facia of your ZX), wouldn't you be hitting your car with the rotary 1-2 times a year? How long would it be till you remove 0.3mil of clear?
 
Just because the paint beads doesn't mean that there is anything on it other than clear coat. It has been pointed out in the past that a freshly painted car will bead water with nothing more than a clear coat. I've learned that I can't rely on water reaction on the surface to tell me when a product is still there.
 
I dont recommend using a rotory on a new car at all. Although on my own cars I like to wetsand the orange peel so I do use it myself.



You can use a glaze with a high speed rotory at 1000 rpms and not remove any paint at all, but instead smooth out the paint you have..



I have several cars I've done this to for over 10 years now and they look better than new.



P.S. Intermezzo let me apologize for taking your thread into a different direction than what I think you intended. Good luck in finding the solution to your white car dilemma
 
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