Products for Red 360 Ferrari? Save me from buying $1100 Zymol Vintage
- Thread starter TheRogue
- Start date
There is no such thing as 'white' carnauba.As has already been said,the 'white' is obtained through a chemical bleaching process.The companies use this as it is thought to increase the optical range of the formula.The #1,or prime carnauba is still the highest grade available,and the wax obtained from the youngest leaves(fonds) is a pale yellow colour,not Ivory or White.Even taking wax from the young(small) pallmeto palm,still gives pale yellow carnauba.
Although slightly off the original topic,the 'white' carnauba discusion has forced me to go a little 'Deeper' in my response.
As many people already know,the 'crude' carnauba is obtained from the Fonds of the carnauba palm by 'Beating/Scraping the wax off.This wax is then placed into 'vats' of boiling water,the wax melts off and rises to the top,where it is recovered.
The wax is then placed into the boiling water for a second time,to remove the impurities,then recovered and 'Graded'.White carnauba is a highly refined grade of the #1 yellow having gone through the 'Bleaching' process,and infact contains a small amount of pafaffin wax due to this process.
In the 1920's the 'Grading' system for carnauba was a little different from what we have today,the comercialy available grades were,in order of purity;1 Flower 2 First 3 Medium clear 4 Medium 5 Caupie 6 Sandy 7 Fat.
The Flower grade is the purist (99.8% wax) but was seldom used in export for wax making, as so little was obtained from each carnauba harvest,it is yellowish in colour (actually the same colour as an egg yolk)
The 'White' carnauba would be obtained from the Fat grade(#7) by using fractional crystallisation,the partially purified Fat grade would be dissolved in a 10x it's own weight solution of Benzine,turning the very dark Fat grade from a greyish colour to a whitish colour.
Both White and Ivory carnauba are not available to buy anywere,they are produced by the already mentioned Fractional Crystallisation method,which does result in a super pure carnauba wax,but with the addition of a small amount or paraffin.Paraffin wax is also added to many wax formulas to create the crayon smell that is sometimes found in certain formulas when they become quite warm.
As many people already know,the 'crude' carnauba is obtained from the Fonds of the carnauba palm by 'Beating/Scraping the wax off.This wax is then placed into 'vats' of boiling water,the wax melts off and rises to the top,where it is recovered.
The wax is then placed into the boiling water for a second time,to remove the impurities,then recovered and 'Graded'.White carnauba is a highly refined grade of the #1 yellow having gone through the 'Bleaching' process,and infact contains a small amount of pafaffin wax due to this process.
In the 1920's the 'Grading' system for carnauba was a little different from what we have today,the comercialy available grades were,in order of purity;1 Flower 2 First 3 Medium clear 4 Medium 5 Caupie 6 Sandy 7 Fat.
The Flower grade is the purist (99.8% wax) but was seldom used in export for wax making, as so little was obtained from each carnauba harvest,it is yellowish in colour (actually the same colour as an egg yolk)
The 'White' carnauba would be obtained from the Fat grade(#7) by using fractional crystallisation,the partially purified Fat grade would be dissolved in a 10x it's own weight solution of Benzine,turning the very dark Fat grade from a greyish colour to a whitish colour.
Both White and Ivory carnauba are not available to buy anywere,they are produced by the already mentioned Fractional Crystallisation method,which does result in a super pure carnauba wax,but with the addition of a small amount or paraffin.Paraffin wax is also added to many wax formulas to create the crayon smell that is sometimes found in certain formulas when they become quite warm.
imported_Bence
New member
Will, David is a great mentor isn't he? 
I'll have to look at that further. I am not sure if that information is absolutely correct. I have heard of that process before, however. I am not certain whether in fact "bleaching" a #1 yellow would be considered an authentic process of creating a white wax.
At any rate, the wax isn't pure white as you've said. It may have an Ivory color, but it will need to be clarified which process would be correct; a manufacturing from virgin yellow, or converting a dark yellow into white.
Interesting....
At any rate, the wax isn't pure white as you've said. It may have an Ivory color, but it will need to be clarified which process would be correct; a manufacturing from virgin yellow, or converting a dark yellow into white.
Interesting....
imported_Bence
New member
The current typical grades are:
#1 yellow; sometimes it is called prime yellow
#2 yellow; aka light yellow
#3 light fatty gray; which are in fact rather lighter brown
#4 fatty gray; dark brown or green
...but different manufacturers can specify only three types - #1 Yellow (Type 1), NC #2 Light (Type 3), NC #3 Dark (Type 4-Filtered), NC #3 Centrifuged (Type 4) - while others again four.
Basically, the old, impure waxes such as the 4 Medium, 5 Caupie, 6 Sandy and the 7 Fat are not in production for automotive purposes any more. Nowadays, the most impure version are just darker green, or brown but definitely not dark gray/almost black. The carnauba goes through lots of filtration steps, so we have a far superior product compared to the old times. The Japanese company Toa Kasei developed a method for extreme refining of carnauba; removing the most unstable or unnecessary particles from it. I don't know its activity in the automotive sector though.
If you compared the smell of pure(r) carnaubas or products known to contain #1 yellow carnauba, you could sniff a pleasant "background" scent which is characteristic of carnauba wax. Of course, heavily scented or oil rich carnaubas smell a lot better, but if you want to know the real smell of carnauba try an unscented or just mildly scented wax. Note: if it smells like crayons, it contains paraffin wax (which helps the ease of application).
Other important thing is that you have to watch the carnauba content in % by weight and not % by volume. Two completely different numbers.
How does Zymöl calculate? Do they refer to their final products when they give percentual figures? Just because you have to factor in that a certain % (rather low) of carnauba evaporates during cooking and cooling.
Other important waxes (with some tech talk):
Beeswax
is a glandular secretion from young worker honeybees and is used to build their honeycomb structures. The wax is harvested by removing the honey through centrifuging and melting the remaining comb. The melted wax is then filtered and molded.
Crude Montan wax
is a naturally occurring vegetable wax extracted by solvents from lignite coal deposits and peat. Refined Montan needs extra processing to remove any resins and asphalt. This hard vegetable wax has a melting point of 79-90 °C. The color ranges from dark brown to light yellow. Montan wax is highly glossy and increases water repellence and scuff resistance.
Macrocrystalline wax (paraffin wax)
is a petroleum wax made from de-oiled slack wax. Paraffin wax is brittle and has a low melting point between 46 and 71 °C. It is highly resistant to moisture. Due to its low cost, paraffin wax is frequently added to other wax blends.
Microcrystalline wax
is also a petroleum wax. Microcrystalline waxes have a crystalline structure much smaller than totally natural waxes and have a very high resistance to moisture, alcohol, acids and fingerprints.
Candelilla wax
is a natural vegetable wax found on the outer coating of the candelilla shrubs Euphorbia cerifera, Euphorbia antisyphilitica and Pedilanthus pavonis. These shrubs mainly grow in the Coahila and Chihuahuan deserts along the USA/Mexican border. The wax is extracted in the field by heating the plants in water and adding sulphuric acid. The floating wax is then skimmed and filtered.
The color of the wax ranges from yellow to tan and is slightly tacky. It is softer than carnauba, and has a melting point of 70 °C. It is sometimes used as a substitute for carnauba wax, due to its high gloss and similar hard characteristics.
Ouricury wax
is obtained from the fronds of the Brazilian feather palm (Syagros coronata). It is similar to carnauba wax in gloss and hardness, but darker in color. However, the wax is significantly more difficult to extract than carnauba, needing mechanical scraping of the fronds to release it. Ouricury wax has a melting point of 82.5 °C and is sometimes used as a replacement for carnauba, when a darker colored wax is desired (mostly woodworking).
Silicone waxes
provide a different combination of properties to that of the traditional waxes. Despite of having a low melting point, they can provide a film with increased detergent resistance and weathering abilities, especially when combined with (amino)functionalized silicones. They provide a dry film that improves dirt pick-up resistance, and retains the ease of application, spreading characteristics and shine.
A properly selected wax may reduce smear, improve film continuity (or uniformity), provide durability and promote stability by acting as a thickener. Most waxes may be described as either soft or hard wax. Hard waxes, such as carnauba and polypropylene, tend to have higher melting points, they provide a harder film finish, and promote good gloss, color intensity and durability. However, they are often more difficult to apply and buff out.
Softer waxes, such as paraffin and beeswax, tend to be better at lubricating, providing better application in terms of ease of application (rubout) and improved spreading (as I mentioned above). Soft waxes generally provide less shine. In most formulations, it is best to blend a hard wax with a soft wax to optimize their benefits.
#1 yellow; sometimes it is called prime yellow
#2 yellow; aka light yellow
#3 light fatty gray; which are in fact rather lighter brown
#4 fatty gray; dark brown or green
...but different manufacturers can specify only three types - #1 Yellow (Type 1), NC #2 Light (Type 3), NC #3 Dark (Type 4-Filtered), NC #3 Centrifuged (Type 4) - while others again four.
Basically, the old, impure waxes such as the 4 Medium, 5 Caupie, 6 Sandy and the 7 Fat are not in production for automotive purposes any more. Nowadays, the most impure version are just darker green, or brown but definitely not dark gray/almost black. The carnauba goes through lots of filtration steps, so we have a far superior product compared to the old times. The Japanese company Toa Kasei developed a method for extreme refining of carnauba; removing the most unstable or unnecessary particles from it. I don't know its activity in the automotive sector though.
If you compared the smell of pure(r) carnaubas or products known to contain #1 yellow carnauba, you could sniff a pleasant "background" scent which is characteristic of carnauba wax. Of course, heavily scented or oil rich carnaubas smell a lot better, but if you want to know the real smell of carnauba try an unscented or just mildly scented wax. Note: if it smells like crayons, it contains paraffin wax (which helps the ease of application).
Other important thing is that you have to watch the carnauba content in % by weight and not % by volume. Two completely different numbers.
How does Zymöl calculate? Do they refer to their final products when they give percentual figures? Just because you have to factor in that a certain % (rather low) of carnauba evaporates during cooking and cooling.
Other important waxes (with some tech talk):
Beeswax
is a glandular secretion from young worker honeybees and is used to build their honeycomb structures. The wax is harvested by removing the honey through centrifuging and melting the remaining comb. The melted wax is then filtered and molded.
Crude Montan wax
is a naturally occurring vegetable wax extracted by solvents from lignite coal deposits and peat. Refined Montan needs extra processing to remove any resins and asphalt. This hard vegetable wax has a melting point of 79-90 °C. The color ranges from dark brown to light yellow. Montan wax is highly glossy and increases water repellence and scuff resistance.
Macrocrystalline wax (paraffin wax)
is a petroleum wax made from de-oiled slack wax. Paraffin wax is brittle and has a low melting point between 46 and 71 °C. It is highly resistant to moisture. Due to its low cost, paraffin wax is frequently added to other wax blends.
Microcrystalline wax
is also a petroleum wax. Microcrystalline waxes have a crystalline structure much smaller than totally natural waxes and have a very high resistance to moisture, alcohol, acids and fingerprints.
Candelilla wax
is a natural vegetable wax found on the outer coating of the candelilla shrubs Euphorbia cerifera, Euphorbia antisyphilitica and Pedilanthus pavonis. These shrubs mainly grow in the Coahila and Chihuahuan deserts along the USA/Mexican border. The wax is extracted in the field by heating the plants in water and adding sulphuric acid. The floating wax is then skimmed and filtered.
The color of the wax ranges from yellow to tan and is slightly tacky. It is softer than carnauba, and has a melting point of 70 °C. It is sometimes used as a substitute for carnauba wax, due to its high gloss and similar hard characteristics.
Ouricury wax
is obtained from the fronds of the Brazilian feather palm (Syagros coronata). It is similar to carnauba wax in gloss and hardness, but darker in color. However, the wax is significantly more difficult to extract than carnauba, needing mechanical scraping of the fronds to release it. Ouricury wax has a melting point of 82.5 °C and is sometimes used as a replacement for carnauba, when a darker colored wax is desired (mostly woodworking).
Silicone waxes
provide a different combination of properties to that of the traditional waxes. Despite of having a low melting point, they can provide a film with increased detergent resistance and weathering abilities, especially when combined with (amino)functionalized silicones. They provide a dry film that improves dirt pick-up resistance, and retains the ease of application, spreading characteristics and shine.
A properly selected wax may reduce smear, improve film continuity (or uniformity), provide durability and promote stability by acting as a thickener. Most waxes may be described as either soft or hard wax. Hard waxes, such as carnauba and polypropylene, tend to have higher melting points, they provide a harder film finish, and promote good gloss, color intensity and durability. However, they are often more difficult to apply and buff out.
Softer waxes, such as paraffin and beeswax, tend to be better at lubricating, providing better application in terms of ease of application (rubout) and improved spreading (as I mentioned above). Soft waxes generally provide less shine. In most formulations, it is best to blend a hard wax with a soft wax to optimize their benefits.
Zymols refers to their final waxes in percentages. Roughly half (except perhaps the top three of the EG line) of their wax body will contain carnauba, and the rest of the lsp will contain a blend of natural oils, and the wax vehicle (liquid bonding agent). I have seen beeswax mentioned in some of the HCZymols, but the higher content EGZymols will have the herbal oils and the final carnauba content. I haven't seen any paraffin wax in any of the Zymols...but at the moment my Zymol's owner's manual isn't at hand so I'll have to double check that.
That is a great set of information you have there. I will look at one source tomorrow or this weekend, and see if I can get a clearer explanation on the white crystallization process.
That is a great set of information you have there. I will look at one source tomorrow or this weekend, and see if I can get a clearer explanation on the white crystallization process.
The crystallisation process is fact. 'White' or 'Ivory' carnauba are not available to buy as raw materials from any company who supplies the High- end wax makers with their raw carnauba.Only the 'exact' crystallisation method would be questionable,depending on the particular wax makers formula.The percentage figures that Zymol uses for it's waxes(HC& EG) can not only refer to the amount of carnauba used in the formula,as other waxes (Montan and/or Bees wax) must be added,otherwise you would not be able to spread and properly apply the product.Zymol are the only company that uses the percent by volume figure when they refer to carnauba content.It is not clear if they are including the total percentage of all wax types in the formula,or otherwise.The percentage by weight figure is a more acurate representation of the wax content,refering to the amount of wax that is added to the formula in relation to the total of all ingredients.
imported_Grouse
New member
Wise 85 thanks for the clarification. I have read much of the zymol advertising lit. And basically was wondering exactly what you outline. Is it really a % of the Brazillian white, or a % total of wax. It would be intresting to hear from one of the wax chemists. I think that is the only way we will find out how a wax emulsion really is made and works.
CalgaryDetail
Mike
Well i dont have anything to contrubte to this carnuba forum but i do however have some info for anyone looking at buying any zymol products. A member here on autopia (im sorry i cant rember who and i already deleted the msg, im sure they will post and let us know becsue they deseve full credit) let me know that there is a web site that is selling zymol and he also has a 15% discount, you can get both vintage and royal for 15% off.. and to add onto that the prices are on sale right now, i thikn concours is down to 150 us plus the 15% off, so not a bad deal. if you want to know the sire pm me, I dont want to post it here because of the sponsors, who are awsome. Thank you to this member every much for all the info (sorry i dont remeber the name i am really sorry)
Zymol's percentages refers only to its carnauba content, not the accompanying herbal waxes or other natural waxes that are included. Zymol's owner's manual gives a full content breakdown of their retail waxes.
Well I've got some tidbits for you. White carnauba is a clinical (wax industry) fact. It isn't harvested directly from the carnauba plant, but in fact it is a further refinement process from the raw yellow carnauba extract. Thus, while it exists, (and not discussing the claim that zymol uses virgin leaves) carnauba that's available commercially (meaning the raw material) is typically graded starting from #1 yellow (redundant but watch what follows).
I will share the following information. This text is adapted from The Chemistry and Technology of Waxes, by Albin H. Warth; Second Edition; Reinhold Publishing Corporation, New York; Copyright 1956; Pgs 170, 4th parag., to top of 172.
'White Carnauba Wax: It is practically impossible to bleach carnauba wax white without altering its composition. There is a demand for white carnauba wax for use in cosmetics, or other purposes where whiteness is a prime need. White carnauba wax may be prepared by several methods. (a) The carnauba is mixed with paraffin, the temperature raised to about 220 degrees C, and activated carbon, or "Tonsil" clay is added. (b) Carnauba is fractionally crystallized from its benzin solution at 16 deg. C, when crystals (m. 80.8 deg. C) of pure white color are collected, together with a by-product wax (m. 60 deg. C). (c) Crude carnauba wax is dissolved in boiling butanol and treated with metallic sodium, the effect of which is to bleach the wax. The solution is then filtered and the solvent recovered. (d) The carnauba wax is mixed with paraffin, then saponified with alkali. The saphonified mixture is then boiled with water, and the white wax separated as a layer from the aqueous soapy solution. The last described method, which is of German and Austrian origin, permits the utilization of the cheap lower grades of natural wax. The white wax is nonsaponifiable, or nearly so, and has a very low viscosity when melted.'
So according to this author, there exists several ways of producing white carnauba wax. While this information dates back to 1956, and at the moment I don't have more recent data at hand, it does explain how white carnauba is manufactured.
If anyone can find more updated information, please feel free to share it, and of course reference the source.
Well I've got some tidbits for you. White carnauba is a clinical (wax industry) fact. It isn't harvested directly from the carnauba plant, but in fact it is a further refinement process from the raw yellow carnauba extract. Thus, while it exists, (and not discussing the claim that zymol uses virgin leaves) carnauba that's available commercially (meaning the raw material) is typically graded starting from #1 yellow (redundant but watch what follows).
I will share the following information. This text is adapted from The Chemistry and Technology of Waxes, by Albin H. Warth; Second Edition; Reinhold Publishing Corporation, New York; Copyright 1956; Pgs 170, 4th parag., to top of 172.
'White Carnauba Wax: It is practically impossible to bleach carnauba wax white without altering its composition. There is a demand for white carnauba wax for use in cosmetics, or other purposes where whiteness is a prime need. White carnauba wax may be prepared by several methods. (a) The carnauba is mixed with paraffin, the temperature raised to about 220 degrees C, and activated carbon, or "Tonsil" clay is added. (b) Carnauba is fractionally crystallized from its benzin solution at 16 deg. C, when crystals (m. 80.8 deg. C) of pure white color are collected, together with a by-product wax (m. 60 deg. C). (c) Crude carnauba wax is dissolved in boiling butanol and treated with metallic sodium, the effect of which is to bleach the wax. The solution is then filtered and the solvent recovered. (d) The carnauba wax is mixed with paraffin, then saponified with alkali. The saphonified mixture is then boiled with water, and the white wax separated as a layer from the aqueous soapy solution. The last described method, which is of German and Austrian origin, permits the utilization of the cheap lower grades of natural wax. The white wax is nonsaponifiable, or nearly so, and has a very low viscosity when melted.'
So according to this author, there exists several ways of producing white carnauba wax. While this information dates back to 1956, and at the moment I don't have more recent data at hand, it does explain how white carnauba is manufactured.
If anyone can find more updated information, please feel free to share it, and of course reference the source.
CalgaryDetail
Mike
lbls1 you mention a zymol owners manual. I was wondering how one gets a hold of this manual. Do i need to buy vinatge or Royal? Or do I just need to contact Zymol. I would be very intrested in seeing what is in it, and maybe get some ideas of products i would like to try.
imported_Padron
New member
calgarydetail said:
Your Welcome!! :xyxthumbs
CalgaryDetail
Mike
lol thank you padron sorry, i really ment to give you full credit and I still do. So thank you, also i have notcid that all the zymol line is onsale right now so i may just have to order the complete kit with some ital. 
superstring
New member
calgarydetail said:
I would imagine if you contact Zymol directly, they'll send you a manual. If you get stuck, I have one that I might be persuaded to part with
Calgary, you could call Zymol's customer service line and request one. They are very gracious over the phone. Even if you get the least bit of resistence, you can request to buy HDCleanse, and they should be more than accommodating.
Rogue, please do share some of your photos with Ital and the comparison. Remember to get in some good long range shots!
Rogue, please do share some of your photos with Ital and the comparison. Remember to get in some good long range shots!