Popular Autopia myths

Puter, there probably aren't any. Technically, silicone is a polymer. That must be what BF is referring to. The only other place I can think of is the plastic bottle. :D



Suspended SILICONE polymers. Isn't what waxes like Paste Glaze and Gold Class are referring to when they say their waxes contain suspended polymers? Makes sense now. Terry from CMA did mention that polymers in waxes like Paste Glaze were meant to increase glossiness.



Or am I just WAY out in left field?
 
I agree it sure sounds like BF is loaded with silicone. Not that it's a BAD thing, but it sure would explain poor durability and the dust problem so many are describing.



Anyhow, here's a myth or two I was thinking about. Products that claim a "sheeting' action and products that claim to be "nonabrasive." Sheeting is completely natural on an unwaxed or sealant free car and on those where an abrasive has been used. When you wash a car after using SMR or a Rubbing Compound the water lays on the surface and sort of sheets off because of the abrasive action on the paint. So, IMO any product that claims "sheeting" must contain some sort of abrasive as well, even if it is very minute amounts. The abrasives are what's causing the sheeting action, otherwise there would be beading. So, I think the whole sheeting thing is a myth. Disclaimer: Of course, this is MY opinion based on the knowledge I have and information I know, take what you want from it....



Also, there seems to be a lot of products out there claiming "nonabrasiveness," in everything from polishes to waxes and sealants. I don't understand why companies have to hide the fact that products ARE indeed abrasive. Maybe it's just hte word "abrasive" that scares many people into not buying products. If you know how abrasives work and their function/applications, there is no need to fear their use. I just dont like the fact that this is being understated or misrepresented on many products.



My $.02...
 
Call Meguiar's! LOL!! I bet they would say their heavy cutting compounds have "strong cleaners and light abrasives" :rolleyes:. Of course, all of their swirl removers are nonabrasive! Yuck...
 
Silicone------> There is silicone oil and silicone polymers. Silicone polymers are found in products like liquid galss and finish first. They cause no harm to paint but are among the earliest generation of polymer systems. Silicone oil is the bad stuff, that can over time, permeate paint, and cause a body shop a lot of frustration.



This explains it ".....Silicones had drawbacks that created nightmares for paint shops. Silicones "drift" onto the painted surfaces and penetrate into cracks, voids, and "pores" of the paint. It is this penetration that has given paint shops so much trouble.

Once silicones have permeated the paint, the primer and the metal, a painter cannot get his paint to properly adhere. The silicones make the new paint "foam" which causes minute pockets of air in the newly applied paint. This is called "entrapment." As the paint is curing and the solvents are flashing off, the tiny pockets of air will slowly work their way to the surface and create what is called a "pin hole." Sometimes these entrapped air pockets cannot reach the surface before the surface has cured, and they become entrapped. Hence, months later, the vehicle is left out in the sun and bingo! The air bubble expands from the heat; the paint softens, and out comes the entrapped air..creating more pinholes!............."



SHEETING---> Healthy aka "new" paint/ clearcoat beads water. When a car comes out of the paint booth and is washed it will bead water like crazy just as if a quality wax wax applied. Over time this beading turns to sheeting as the clearcoat ages. What accelerates this "aging" is the use of abrasive products. They permeate the top layer of the clearcoat and after using them cause it to sheet water from here on out.



Polymers in Carnubas------> What manufacturers are referring to most of the time is the polyethylene wax added to the formulation. This aids in water beading properties and also helps increase the melting point of the system when blended with carnuba for more stability on hot days.



Hope this helps.......



DK
 
Re: Abrasives and "sheeting action":

Abrasives per se have nothing to do with water sheeting off a car. The reason why water sheets off a car after it has been treated with an non-protective abrasive product like "SMR or a rubbing compound" is because the abrasives removed whatever wax or sealant was on the car, leaving nothing on top of the paint.

The purpose of "SMR or a rubbing compound" is to remove paint--obviously it is going to remove any protectant in the process-it is nothing inherent in the nature of abrasives themselves. The fact that a product "sheets" water rather than "beads" water is by no means evidence of the presence of abrasives.

Silicone:

Again I suspect there are very few products used by individuals on this board that include Silicone Oils--I highly doubt Blitz, Zaino, Klasse, Blackfire, Souveran, etc, etc, contain silicone oils

From Ron K.:

"Most products use some form of polydimethalsiloxanes or polyamniosiloxanes and is not a problem for the bodyshops"

http://216.147.22.29/forum/showthread.php3?threadid=5803&highlight=wax+solvents+hurt+paint

AKA: PDMS, "good silicone", etc, etc.

I know for a fact it was stated on this board that Blitz contained a good amount of PDMS. I suspect the same is true of most of the products I named above and others.
 
Thanks for the link, Justin!

"<strong class='bbc'>Silicones are synthetic polymers and are not therefore found naturally. They have a linear, repeating silicon-oxygen backbone akin to silica.[/b]"

<em class='bbc'>So I guess Klasse, Zaino, and Blackfire are this type of silicone, as they are synthetic polymers that crosslink using oxygen.[/i]

<strong class='bbc'>Silicone fluids(oils) are usually linear chains of polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) which have a wide range of chain lengths and molecular masses.[/b]

<em class='bbc'>I'm guessing Souveran, 303, Vinylex, Zymol, or Blitz.[/i]

<strong class='bbc'>Silicone gels have lightly cross-linked polysiloxane networks, swollen with PDMS fluid to produce a cohesive mass.[/b]
<em class='bbc'>Products such as Turtle Wax Tire Wax or Meguiars Endurance?[/i]

<strong class='bbc'>Silicone elastomers are extensively cross-linked and contain little free PDMS fluid. [/b]

<em class='bbc'>Probably the cheap dressings like Black Magic waterless formulas or Son of a Gun.[/i]



So silicones aren't necessarily a bad thing, it just depends on the type. And thanks to Michael H. for this topic… discussion helps us think differently and more deeply at the things we thought we knew really well already.

Discussion... it’s a good thing.


~bw

<span style='font-size: 8px;'><strong class='bbc'>EDIT:[/b] Thanks <strong class='bbc'>YoSteve[/b] for the link...(http://www.silicone-review.gov.uk/silicone/#gels)
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by JS [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Re: Abrasives and "sheeting action":

Abrasives per se have nothing to do with water sheeting off a car. The reason why water sheets off a car after it has been treated with an non-protective abrasive product like "SMR or a rubbing compound" is because the abrasives removed whatever wax or sealant was on the car, leaving nothing on top of the paint.

The purpose of "SMR or a rubbing compound" is to remove paint--obviously it is going to remove any protectant in the process-it is nothing inherent in the nature of abrasives themselves. The fact that a product "sheets" water rather than "beads" water is by no means evidence of the presence of abrasives.

[/b]</blockquote>
I must respectfully disagree with you.

I think you're totally contradicting you're own post. You first say abrasives have nothing to do with water sheeting, but then you state that abrasives cause water to sheet because they leave nothing "coating" the paint. Any time you abrade the surface, water is going to sheet, regardless if there is already a "protectant" on the surface to begin with. If you use an abrasive on a brand new custom paint job with NO wax protection, it will sheet water. Abrasives can be present in products other than paint cleaners or swirl removers. DAWN washing soap can be considered a very very mild chemical abrasive. If you wash with DAWN on a carnauba finish, what's the result? Beading turns into sheeting because the DAWN has stripped the "protection." I happen to think the same applies to sealants/waxes that claim to sheet water. Sure, they may leave some shine or protection, but in order to sheet water, the surface must be abraded by some amount, no matter how large or small. A healthy finish will bead water if it is well protected. It's MY opinion that paint will sheet either when there's no protection or there has been some sort of abrasive used. This is why I personally don't buy the "sheeting" issue of some products.
 
Healthy paint does BEAD WATER. For example look at geekysteve's computer case............



<img src=http://www.codevantage.com/autoshow/beads_close.jpg>



Use of abrasives weakens the clearcoat by permeating the layer. when you see sheeting on your clearcoat with no protection on the car it means it is starting to age. It's not big deal and happens in time to all cars, but please realize that even with no protection on fresh/new paint, the clearcoat WILL bead water.



As far as the silicone oil thing, all we can do is speculate. No one knows for sure what is or what is not in any products. I can tell you one thing though, KLASSE AND ZAINO are NOT silicone polymers. There are many different polymer systems out there. For dressings and conditioners PDMS (Z-16, 303,etc) and silicone oils (greasy slingy products) are very popular.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Metallic Mike [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>A healthy finish will bead water if it is well protected. It's MY opinion that paint will sheet either when there's no protection or there has been some sort of abrasive used. This is why I personally don't buy the "sheeting" issue of some products. [/b]</blockquote>An unhealthy finish that is well protected will bead water too. All the water sees is the protection. Don't believe me? Slap a coat of wax on a dirty beater and see if it beads. Bet it does.

I think it has something to do with the abrading of the surface, as has been said above by Mike and others. "Healthy," i.e. unabraded paint should bead but once you have polished it with any abrasive....

Dawn is not abrasive and should not be considered as an abrasive by any means. Chemically abrasive is BS IMO . . . it's a detergent that eats things, not something that abrades a surface away. Bad combo of terms, I have seen it a few times and never liked it.

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

Silicone fluids(oils) are usually linear chains of polydimethylsiloxane (PDMS) which have a wide range of chain lengths and molecular masses.</blockquote>What? Mixing dimethyl silicone oil with polydimethylsiloxane silicone resin? Hmm, is this realistic or accurate?

[ADDED]Nice conversation we have going here! :up [/ADDED]
 
Autopia Myths:





Brad B is actually Wilson from Home Improvement.



Don't believe, me look at his pic on the mod page!



:D :nixweiss :D
 
I don't know .... I clayed my car and used laundry detergent and my car did not bead nor sheet, some of the water just stayed on the surface... you know how a windsheild looks that hasn't been cleaned and the water just sticks to it. Well thats how my hood looked.



Even when I had parts of my Saturn painted, the water did not bead from those specific panels... maybe under some circumstances it will but it didn't happen for me.... would of been nice if it beaded, I could of said I waxed it :)



By the way, this is one of the better posts we have going, really good info.
 
if beading can = no paint protection, then isn't that bad for using beading as a determination for wax protection?
 
To test for protection I run my fingers on the cleaned paint to feel if it is smooth and slick.



For a comparison go feel someone's beater that never gets waxed. When they run it through a car wash thingy it will bead water , but it does not feel slick nor smooth.
 
The first one means that a surface repels water, or that the water is **attracted to itself** rather than the surface. This surface tension effect forms "beads" which easily roll off the surface.



The second means that a surface attracts (or does not repel) water. An abraded surface (chemically or physically roughened or pitted) will not repel water as well as a smooth surface since the microscopically "sharp" edges of the scratches break down the surface tension, so the water can hold the surface, gradually sheeting, clinging to the imperfections, dirt, or other surface films.



Chemicals can alter the surface properties as well. A waxed, oiled, or silicone treated surface is hydrophobic. A "Dawned" surface is hydrophyllic since the wax has been removed.



Hope this helps a little.
 
Don't most of the products that contain abrasives use kaolite? That's just clay. If you work it hard it will break down long before you could seriously damage a finish. I'm not talking about real rubbing compounds.
 
OK, I'll come right out and say what I've tried to hint at. Is it possible that products like the BFAFPP actually conatin some abrasive material, thus causing the sheeting that many are reporting? My theory is/was that if a protectant, versus a SMR or similar true abrasive product, contained some type of abrasives, even in small amounts, it's likely that the surface will sheet after their use. That's all I'm trying to get at. Maybe I have a misunderstanding that needs clearing up, I'm just trying to explain some things in my own mind that I think may be correct.
 
Reacall that a wax that sheets, repels water just as much as a wax that beads, the water droplets don't cling as in beading but it's definately hydrophobic. remember sheeting is repelling. There is a word for a break down of beading or sheeting, it's called wetting out.

Put a drop of water on your dawn washed hand and you'll see the drop wet out on your hand. Put some lotion on your hand and try the drop again it beads and depending where the drop is it rolls off. (now that would be either sheeting or beading on your hand which ever you prefer) but on a car beading would be water droplets that stick to the car while sheeting would be water droplets that run off. Most of the time waxed cars a little of both. But rest assured they are both repelling the water. I (we've) just about exhausted this topic before, maybe we are making it more difficult that it really is :)
 
Intermezzo,



Whitout having the products analyzed myself, all I can do is hypothesize or go on other information. So, from what I've seen and heard, it sure sounds like they're close to being the same. Recall the guy (forget his name) who did the lab analysis on the BF Protectant and Polish and they both had the same pH afterwards. Very odd, IMO, because shouldn't a "polish" have a different reading than a "protectant." Only the manufacturer (or someone who might analyze the products components) knows the truth, so all we can do is specualte...
 
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