Popular Autopia myths

M

Michael H

New member
There are some practices on the Board that seem to be taking on some mystical qualities. Here are a couple:



Dawn



The car should be washed with Dawn dishwashing liquid. This practice has it origin with Zaino users. Is it really a good idea to wash with Dawn I ask? The reason Zaino suggest it, is to remove all the waxes on the paint as Zaino has no cutting or cleaning properties itself. Users just accept this as part of their standard practice, but would have a heart attack if you suggest other household products. If you are using a paint cleaner it is preferable in my opinion to using Dawn



Oils and silicones



Without putting forward arguments or reasons there is a line of reasoning (and I hesitate to use that word) that all "oils and silicones" are bad for paint. Just because such products may not last as long as a sealant does not mean they are not good products. Why are people not equally concerned about products that chemically bind to the paint?



Armour All



There were issues about previous formulations, but I remember Ron K making it clear that those formulations have changed, but there exists this prejudice against Armour All. If we are opened mind should we not be looking and testing the new products?



Feel free to add you own.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Michael H [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>There are some practices on the Board that seem to be taking on some mystical qualities. Here are a couple:

Dawn

The car should be washed with Dawn dishwashing liquid. This practice has it origin with Zaino users. Is it really a good idea to wash with Dawn I ask? The reason Zaino suggest it, is to remove all the waxes on the paint as Zaino has no cutting or cleaning properties itself. Users just accept this as part of their standard practice, but would have a heart attack if you suggest other household products. If you are using a paint cleaner it is preferable in my opinion to using Dawn

-------------> Dawn is a good, cheap alternative to a paint cleansing lotion for most situations. It is not always a replacement, but most of the time it will suffice. I don't think dawn has a rep on this board as being the only prepping solution, and it is not a standard practice, maybe a once a year thing if that. I would think most people know when they can use it and when the can't and it certainly is not going to damage the paint finish.

-------------->A lot of guys use carnuba wax on their car and want to strip it down to try out a polymer sealant. Since the car was already prepped, and clayed, a dawn wash is the easiest, cheapest way to go. Too maybe people have been using it with positive results to claim that dawn is a "mythical" paint cleaner. It works.

Oils and silicones

Without putting forward arguments or reasons there is a line of reasoning (and I hesitate to use that word) that all "oils and silicones" are bad for paint. Just because such products may not last as long as a sealant does not mean they are not good products. Why are people not equally concerned about products that chemically bind to the paint?

-------------> I agree to an extent. All silicone is not bad, it is the type of silicone that matters. When people say "silicones" are bad for paint, they are referring to dimethyl silicone oil. This is the cheap, greasy, oil, that shines like crazy and is in some detailing products. It is a fact that this type of oil on your paint can be very difficult to remove as it finds it way and leaches into cracks and voids. If it is not removed completely when repainting a panel, "fisheyes" can form in the paint. This is confirmed in an article out of Professional Carwashing & Detailing Magazine. Oct 2000 issue - Caring For Today's Automobile Finishes. "....Detailers should polish with non-silicone, body-shape-safe products. Silicone causes fish eyes. Occasionally, vehicles are polished and then need paint repairs within a very short period of time. If silicone-based products were used and were not cleaned off properly, they can cause fish eyes in the paint finish...."


Armour All

There were issues about previous formulations, but I remember Ron K making it clear that those formulations have changed, but there exists this prejudice against Armour All. If we are opened mind should we not be looking and testing the new products?

-------->I have not noticed a difference in the formulation of Armor All. I get it just about every year as gifts, and have trouble finding uses for it. Many users characterize it as greasy, slings, and browns rubber and tires. Again, this is taken from Professional Detailing & Carwashing Magazine - July 2000 issue. "....improper application of both solvent- and water-based dressings on tires can result in staining of the surrounding painted surfaces. Carbon black from the tire mixes with the dressing's shine agent (silicone, glycerin or mineral oil) during application. If the vehicle is moved before this mixture dries, the mixture can be slung onto the fascia and discolor it. Plastic fascias with flex agents in the clearcoat are especially susceptible.

While higher temperatures can speed up the drying of the dressing on the tire, they can also accelerate the staining should the mixture land on the paint, making the stain much more difficult to remove........."


Feel free to add you own.
. [/b]</blockquote>
 
DAWN, Well, it's certainly less abrasive than most paint cleaners which level microlayers of clear coat as they clean. DAWN is a quick and easy way to strip many waxes/oils and one application won't harm anything especially since you're putting "wax" or "sealant" back on anyhow. So, my theory is, why use an abrasive if you don't have to?



Oils/Silicones, It's not so much that they're bad for paint, but their short term life span and dust attraction. That's my only issue with products loaded with oils, they just don't offer long term shine where durability is most important to the user. I've used many carnauba formuations in the past (and will probably use more in the future), but have been left unimpressed with their ability and durability to hold shine. Plus after many years using Meguiar's, I noticed quite a bit of "yellowing" from their waxes on my finish.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Michael H [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Oils and silicones

Without putting forward arguments or reasons there is a line of reasoning (and I hesitate to use that word) that all "oils and silicones" are bad for paint. Just because such products may not last as long as a sealant does not mean they are not good products. Why are people not equally concerned about products that chemically bind to the paint?[/b]</blockquote>
OK, I'll put forth a reason. My impression is that you would trust Ron Ketcham's opinion, so let me quote you something RK posted a while ago:

"Dimethal Silicones are migratory, they enter into the substrate and since they are an "oil" break down slowly the polymer substrate(binder/flim former resin for one) which is also derived from crude oil. They release the plastizers from vinyl,rubber and paint.Cause them to evaporate out of the substrate, leaving behind a "dry" unflexable surface."

Here's another quote from Ron Ketcham regarding oils in polishes (sorry Ron. I hope you don't mind, but I just love quoting you!):

"The components that certain products do, is to create an opitcal allusion. "Make-up" and it will damage, over a period time, the modern clearcoat, as it attempts to return the clear (polyurethane enamel" to it's orginal state, "crude oil".
This use of these types of products slowly and effectively breaks down the "resin system"(resin system-binder and film former, the slick,glossy natural state), of the paint."

And yet another quote:

"Bull is right, the "oils" are makeup , but do serve one function besides a "marketing of the product". They have solvents and mild polishing qualities that aid in preparing the surface for you final protectant. As far as putting "oils" in the paint, no way! It is chemically impossible to do so, they may lay on top or go down into the porosity of the clears, but are not part of the structure and will weaken the molecular chain over time if allowed to stay there."

Kinda sounds like oils and silicones aren't so great for your paint after all, doesn't it?

If anyone wants the URL links for these threads, please e-mail me and I'll send them.
 
Ron K says washing with Dawn is bad cuz it harms the plasticizers in the clear coat. Will dull the finish over time. I believe any overly alkaline product will do so.



Zaino guy Sal even says not to make a practice out of using Dawn to strip wax. It's more of a one-time thing to start the Zaino process.
 
ArmorAll is still dangerous unless you get the SAFE kind which is a milky colored PDMS dressing. <strong class='bbc'>[edit][/b]HAVE A NICE DAY<strong class='bbc'>[/edit][/b]

For the record I Have NOT seen this safe version yet and I have seen at least 4 other kinds of AA . . .
 
I don't remember the moto of this forum being "In Ron we trust". :rolleyes: Just because he has an opinion about a product doesn't mean there aren't other views and other facts.



I think we are really close to having to open an "In my opinion" forum so things like this can be discussed. :p
 
Dawn Soap - I use Dawn because it is used by a lot of forum members and it will produce a result that I can expect/look forward to. When I am out there spending 12-14 hours on my car I would like to keep the detailing task in order, I don't fool around with new stuff when I really want to get at a car.



HOWEVER, I did use laundry soap this past weekend to clean my car before the clay and it worked alot better so I guess thats what I'll be using from now on.



Oils Oils Oils - I love to load them up on my paint, it's just about which type and how you use them. Like DetailKing said, specific types are bad, maybe that scares people completely away from oils. It shouldn't but you really need to blame the person for not looking into the matter deeper than just hearing "oils are bad" and they stay away from all of them. I know just about everyone here will agree that Meguiars Glaze is an awesome oil.



Armor All - I don't use it because their formula's stunk. They were made for the 5 minute detailer who didn't want to spend that much time on their car. The product just did not suits my needs, thats all. They may of come up with better formula's but I have no desire nor need to "test" their new product line. The stuff I am using works great. I in no way badmouthing them, I just don't use them.



I don’t really think we need a whole separate forum to voice our opinions, it would just limit people to extremely mundane posts here and it’s always nice to hear people spice things up once in a while.
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Jngrbrdman [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>I think we are really close to having to open an "In my opinion" forum so things like this can be discussed. :p [/b]</blockquote>
Please, this whole board is opinions. Point me to a thread that <strong class='bbc'>isn't[/b] based on opinion.
 
Jngrbrdman, IN MY OPINION :rolleyes: (should I preface everything I say with that now?) I posted what I posted because of Michael H's assertion that nobody posts anything about why oils and silicones in your paint may, in the long run, have an adverse effect on your paint. I was just giving him a 'helpful' or 'courtesy' reminder that that subject has indeed been brought up. :D



Like other forum members I do put a considerable amount of weight on what RK says, but of course, it's not as if I compile a bunch of Ketch's posts and put them together to form the Auto Detailing Gospel according to Ketch. I'm not speaking of any absolute truths here and I never said there weren't any other views or opinions.
 
I was being sarcastic when I said that about the "In my opinion" forum. I know that we all share our opinions here. Its just when the opinion comes across as "this is the way that it is and there is no denying the facts" that it bothers me. This thread hasn't come across that way but I've seen them before. I know that Ron K has a lot of knowledge and he is very right about a lot of things. I myself have abandoned a lot of "off the shelf" products for his stuff. We've been having a lot of opinion wars on the forums lately and I'm just on my guard is all. Sorry if I offended any of you.
 
ProtectShield2a.jpg

I thought this was a silicone polymer

There's a whole slew of information on silicone polymer explanation (and there's a chart that says which types are used in what industries). Yes, breast implants are in there too :)
 
Yeah, Blackfire has silicone. Is it silicone oil? No way we can tell without asking CMA and I'm sure they are sick of my questions :D.



4Star Platinum has silicone oil in it . . . this was indirectly and unintentionally confirmed to me from a 4star employee.
 
Hmmm, a Souveran-like shine, questionable durability, dust attraction.... Yeah, I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption that BF contains silicone.



Silicone---------> linear, repeating silicon-oxygen backbone.... organic groups attached directly to the silicon atoms... Hey, that kinda describes the picture Steve just posted.



Not saying it's bad. Like puterbum just said, it depends on exactly what kind of silicone is being used.
 
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