Polymers vs. traditional waxes????

[Inzane]

Do the products like Zaino, Ultima, etc. penetrate the paint, so it is a pain for the body shop to repaint the panel if it needs painting?

I have zero experience with Ultima (and I don't use Zaino myself) but I have it on reliable authority that Zaino does *not* cause problems like that. My best painter uses and recommends Zaino, and he's not the kind of guy to make his job harder



IME only the nastiest of cheap silicon products cause problems. I've simply *never* had my LSPs penetrate to the point where my body/paint guy encountered a problem. Even the silicon containing older version of 3M Showcar Paste Wax cleans off with no problem.

Interesting...



The only product I've ever heard of that has caused some people grief with repainting oddly enough was Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant.

 

[Lenny]

Interesting...



The only product I've ever heard of that has caused some people grief with repainting oddly was enough Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant.

That's odd - I used to use Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant religiously, on my cars and my families, and several of them had to have body work done. I never had a problem, and neither did any of the Ford dealership body shops we used.

 

[mafpo]

Who has had experience with Ultima, and how'd it go?

 

[ricka]

I've used the UPGP on metallic silver Audi. Pretty good stuff. 2x is best. I also top with Danase Wet Glaze. Also good. Both easy to apply but the UPGP is a little finicky (hint-less is more). Plus you need to let the UPGP sit for 12-24 hours before applying an LSP. Not good if you're in a hurry. Personally, the Danase Wet Glaze is one of my favorite products. Easy on easy off. Great shine. Can layer too.



Then again I also like sealants more than waxes. Just makes the silver look better to me. Not sure what goes best with white though.

 

[MBurnickas]

How so?







And wax will?

The poster asked if polymers will harm paint, and that was my reply, I didn't say wax will hurt paint. It is my opinion that polymers (high quality ones) are more beneficial to paint because they do not gather contamination like waxes do over time, and they are more durable.

 

[Inzane]

That's odd - I used to use Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant religiously, on my cars and my families, and several of them had to have body work done. I never had a problem, and neither did any of the Ford dealership body shops we used.

*shrug* I never witnessed the problem myself.



In one case a friend who does his own paintwork had a problem when he repainted his hood (fish eyes, etc.). He blamed the problem on #20. I would suspect prep work however he never had that particular problem when using other waxes. So maybe #20 just requires more diligence.

 

[JSFM35X]

Who has had experience with Ultima, and how'd it go?

I believe that the Ultima Line is worth the Money. I have extensive experience witht he following waxes:

Mothers Carnuba (No cleaner)

P21S Concours

Colonite 845IW

and Ultima UPGP since August 08 (Not that extensive but long enought to make some observations)



The carnubas are fine if you do not mind re-doing the car every 3-4 weeks. I am a little Anal and it takes me all day to wash, clay and prep and finish the car. I used to like spending time doing the cars and still do, but life changes. My 2 boys play on 2 Little League Baseball teams, 3 Basletball teams and I enjoy watching their game more than detailing my cars. That made me jump from carnubas to Colonite 845IW. Truly awesome stuff. I still use it on my wifes truck. The only reason I searched out a wipe on walk away product was that I purchased a Black car in August of 08 and did not want to buff anything off it. I was torn between Zano and Ultima and Ultima gave me a Money back garuntee. I messed up the first application by using too much. You need so little product that I could not comprehend that so little would work. I e mailed a Video to the Manufacturer of my application and they told me i was using way too much. I was told to QD the car with their QD to remove the streaks and it worked. I left the car sit over night. QD to remove any dust and applied another coat properly. The stuff is so easy to apply. Did a M35X in like 15 Mnutes (it was spanking clean to start with). I let it sit for 2 hours and drove it all day. The following weekend I added 1 more layer and it is still beading like a banchie in January 08. 4 plus months. I would like to see how far I can go. Nothing sticks to the car, washes easily, dries with leaf blower in seconds. Driving after a rain the beads just run up the hood.



I did my wifes car the same weekend I did mine. THis way I can test the colonite 845 with the Ultima. SO far they both are performing. I may see tighter beads on the Ultima, but not by much.



In my opinion either the 845 or the Ultima are good solid performers. Next year I will try to apply the sealant end of September or Early October so i can easily get through the whole winter.



I ONR's my car this past weekend with very decent results. I need to get the hand of it. I used too much product and I will attempt again this weekend. I hope my car will not be a trashed so i should go easier.



Good Luck!

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Before we answer that question we have to ask, what are the myths of carnauba wax and what are the facts...



Myth One: Carnauba wax is expensive

Fact One: It is very cheap. All automotive carnauba wax is number #1 (to my knowledge) and is yellow in color. There is no white carnauba wax and the coloring is often a factor of aging vs. quality, ranging from a pale brown to a darker mustard brown. It is about 5-10 dollars for 5 pounds, thats it. No company uses magical wax because it doesn't exist.



Myth Two: The higher the percentage of the carnauba, the better the performace.

Fact Two: Nobody really knows the true carnauba content of the wax because no company is required list that information. Instead we are often given numbers with no basis in fact or reality that confuse the market. The general rule (depending on the formulator) is that the actual wet volume of wax in the product CANNOT exceed 25%-35% or the wax would be unusable. Even if these crazy numbers could be true (they cannot), you are paying more for the cheapest ingredient in the wax.



Myth Three: Carnauba wax is shiney, adds depth, causes shimmer, adds a glow.

Fact Three: Pure carnauba wax is actually pretty opaque and doesn't add too much to appearance of anything on its own. Remember it is designed by nature to add a thick film to protect the frawns of a carnauba palm. It is the oils, silicons, and other ingedients in carnauba wax that give it the 'carnauba look'.



Myth Four: My wax is so hard, or has magical pixey dust that requires it to be melted in my hands before application!

Fact Four: If the wax melts at 98.6 degrees (hands are often slightly cooler) then imagine what happens in the sun. Wax that can easily be applied by hand is made that way because it is whipped (similar to a frosty) in a sense. It is poured and cooled in a particular fashion and the friction of rubbing it in your hand blends the solids and solvents. If a wax was truly 70%, no amount of rubbing or warming would help because it would be like a brick.



As far as waxes vs. sealants, I guess that debate will rage on forever. I like carnaubas because of the oils mixed into them give a nice look.

 

[imported_Exelero]

ok i'm back sorry th0001 was falling asleep there lol.

 

[howareb]

ok i'm back sorry th0001 was falling asleep there lol.

Sounds like another Zymol attack to me.

 

[imported_Exelero]

Sounds like another Zymol attack to me.

Might be i forgot to take my Z today :bigups

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Sounds like another Zymol attack to me.

No attack, I didn't mention any products or names, just cleared up some common myths.



If facts dispute just about everything about a product, that isn't my intention (and to my simple mind more the products fault).



I like Zymol, I find most of their estate waxes to be solid, nice looking waxes competing against anything in the 50 dollar-200 dollar range, but certainly nothing I cannot replicate for far less.



The facts I have represented are what I believe to be absolute truth through research and asking the right people the right questions. However, I would love to have a civil debate in the manner so that more information can be shared with everybody on the board.



As far as sealants vs. traditonal waxes, keep in mind that synthetic sealants are often far more expensive to research, produce, etc and often sold far below the price of a carnauba. What is more important, the cost and quality of the product made, or the price you pay for it? I really like what Autogeek did with Wolfgang Fuzion, take a sealant, mix in carnauba, and charge 200 dollars for it.

 

[howareb]

No attack, I didn't mention any products or names, just cleared up some common myths.



If facts dispute just about everything about a product, that isn't my intention (and to my simple mind more the products fault).



I like Zymol, I find most of their estate waxes to be solid, nice looking waxes competing against anything in the 50 dollar-200 dollar range, but certainly nothing I cannot replicate for far less.



The facts I have represented are what I believe to be absolute truth through research and asking the right people the right questions. However, I would love to have a civil debate in the manner so that more information can be shared with everybody on the board.



As far as sealants vs. traditonal waxes, keep in mind that synthetic sealants are often far more expensive to research, produce, etc and often sold far below the price of a carnauba. What is more important, the cost and quality of the product made, or the price you pay for it? I really like what Autogeek did with Wolfgang Fuzion, take a sealant, mix in carnauba, and charge 200 dollars for it.

No Todd, I was only kidding. I know that you were not attacking Zymol specifically. I was just trying to get Excelo going, because he is a big user of Zymol.



The marketing game of carnuba has always confused me and probably always will. However if it works, it works.



I recenlty used Zymol Vintage on a white Mercedes 320 convertible that only sees daylight every now and then. I loved the look of it even on white.

 

[imported_Exelero]

No attack, I didn't mention any products or names, just cleared up some common myths.



If facts dispute just about everything about a product, that isn't my intention (and to my simple mind more the products fault).



I like Zymol, I find most of their estate waxes to be solid, nice looking waxes competing against anything in the 50 dollar-200 dollar range, but certainly nothing I cannot replicate for far less.



The facts I have represented are what I believe to be absolute truth through research and asking the right people the right questions. However, I would love to have a civil debate in the manner so that more information can be shared with everybody on the board.



As far as sealants vs. traditonal waxes, keep in mind that synthetic sealants are often far more expensive to research, produce, etc and often sold far below the price of a carnauba. What is more important, the cost and quality of the product made, or the price you pay for it? I really like what Autogeek did with Wolfgang Fuzion, take a sealant, mix in carnauba, and charge 200 dollars for it.

No zymol attack lol he always gets me going on the zymol kick.he is a great guy an has an awesome detail shop in va.i do alot of private details so we got to know each other well lol:bigups:bigups:bigups

 

[Alfisti]

Keep in mind that *most* "carnaubas" are a polymer hybrid blend.



I've yet to see proof of that any are pure natural wax with no synthetic polymers/silicones.

 

[danlc95]

Before we answer that question we have to ask, what are the myths of carnauba wax and what are the facts...



Myth Four: My wax is so hard, or has magical pixey dust that requires it to be melted in my hands before application!

Fact Four: If the wax melts at 98.6 degrees (hands are often slightly cooler) then imagine what happens in the sun. Wax that can easily be applied by hand is made that way because it is whipped (similar to a frosty) in a sense. It is poured and cooled in a particular fashion and the friction of rubbing it in your hand blends the solids and solvents. If a wax was truly 70%, no amount of rubbing or warming would help because it would be like a brick.



As far as waxes vs. sealants, I guess that debate will rage on forever. I like carnaubas because of the oils mixed into them give a nice look.

I learned a lot from that post. I too didn't really know some of the things some manufacturers claimed.



Regarding Myth/Fact #4: Does the "chemistry", or behavior of a carnauba wax change once it is applied to the paint, with the dring process, or oxygen comes in contact with it? I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.