Polishes with fillers?

JoshVette said:
This is an excellent write up by both of you and I for one am thankfull.



I use a lot of Menz for polishing and have even done 50/50 wipes with great results, but I am now starting to wonder how many of those cars I've perfected are back to swirls 2-3 weeks later. I have no real way of knowing since I don't see the cars each week.....



I was using 91% alcohol, but I think I'm going to get my hands on some prepsol so I can know the truth.



Problem is I used Menz IP on my truck to remove defects and for the last year they have not come back with all the washing I've done so I assume they are gone and not covered up, I make that same assumption with my clients cars as well......but now I'm nervous cause I promise those clients perminent removal for what they pay and not a cover up.....



So back to the origional question? what polishes offer true swirl removal correction without hiding??



Josh
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I haven't found any problems with IP, ever. (Not saying they don't exist). The problems I have encountered (and rarely) are generally with 106ff.



I think your fine but nothing wrong with a little prep-sol to make sure the paint is perfectly clean.



I am grateful for Dean for sharing is obvious wealth of well researched knowledge as discussions such as this are benefical to all forum members, IMO.
 
Just wanted to post a :xyxthumbs to TH0001 and Deanski for an informative and *CIVIL* exchange of ideas. Thanks, guys.



[Accumulator is currently using the 1Z High Gloss for his finishing polish and thus avoiding the issues under discussion ;) ]
 
Great thread and great discussion. I love my IP and FP combo via PC so far and have had it on 3 different domestic makes with outstanding results.



Next up will be to see what it does on VW's harder clears.
 
Great conclusions Todd and Dean!



I myself have been using Menzerna for a couple of years now and have had excellent rsults from them all. When working on softer finicky paint, I will use IP and FPII. On hard metallic clear, I will use SIP and 106 if it plays well.



When using IP and FPII, what you see is what you get.
 
rydawg said:
I myself have been using Menzerna for a couple of years now and have had excellent rsults from them all. When working on softer finicky paint, I will use IP and FPII. On hard metallic clear, I will use SIP and 106 if it plays well.
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Exactly what I was just about to report. I use the same combo's (although sometimes I'll do FPII after SIP on medium hardness clear's and it turns out well) and have nothing but positive findings.
 
What I think the basis of this thread should be is something that I have thought for a while, an alcohol wipedown isn't sufficient.



Think of it this way, most of the window cleaners that we use have a strong alcohol base, but those don't strip wax. So why on earth would a 50% alcohol solution do it completely?



Now I can agree that it is effective, but only to a limitied extent. The types of oils that we see in polishes, as well as previous LSPs and other paint fillers, are bonded to the clearcoat. In order to remove them sufficiently as to have a completely bare clearcoat, you need to use something pretty substantial.



Solvents like prep-sol have a chemical base that is designed to be a stripping agent. This is the only thing that is going to completely remove polishing residue, leftover LSP, glazes, etc.



Alcohol isn't going to be sufficient, no matter what the dilution. It just isn't designed as a pure stripping agent the way that solvents are.
 
I think a possible issue is that the abrasives in SIP and 106 are very hard and sharp. They probably cut too well on medium-hard clears. This leaves a slightly imperfect finish for the oils and wax to fill. I think the wisest course of action is to reserve SIP and 106 for super hard clears.
 
So, as a recap of this very insightful discussion, it *may* be best to use the Ceramic/Nano polishes on hard and/or Ceramic clears. These would include the PPG CeramiClear® finishes used on Mercedes, Ferarri & Maserati. This might also apply to *some* 5, 6 & 7 series BMW's with "Powered" clears, *some* Infinity's with "Scratch Shield" clears and even the infamously hard C5 & C6 Corvettes. Other than that, it *might* be worthwhile for *some* to use the non-Nano polishes on the one's with super soft finishes such as Porsche & Honda and maybe even single stage too?
 
David Fermani said:
So, as a recap of this very insightful discussion, it *may* be best to use the Ceramic/Nano polishes on hard and/or Ceramic clears. These would include the PPG CeramiClear® finishes used on Mercedes, Ferarri & Maserati. This might also apply to *some* 5, 6 & 7 series BMW's with "Powered" clears, *some* Infinity's with "Scratch Shield" clears and even the infamously hard C5 & C6 Corvettes. Other than that, it *might* be worthwhile for *some* to use the non-Nano polishes on the one's with super soft finishes such as Porsche & Honda and maybe even single stage too?
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I understand that 05 and up Ferraris have PPG CermiClear, but I still don't get good reaction with them on Ferrari paint (for the most part).



I think that 106ff should be used with a finish pad and the paint should be wiped down with a solvent to ensure perfection, regardless of the finish.
 
Todd - Do you ever find yourself marring your corrected finish from wiping it down with Prepsol/MF? Soft finishes are so delicate to begin with, I'd hate to do all that extra work just to have to re-polish it again. Have you ever found that this oil interfers with the bonding of any LSP's?
 
David Fermani said:
Todd - Do you ever find yourself marring your corrected finish from wiping it down with Prepsol/MF? Soft finishes are so delicate to begin with, I'd hate to do all that extra work just to have to re-polish it again. Have you ever found that this oil interfers with the bonding of any LSP's?
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I have never discovered straight line marring from wiping the surface, but I have seen swirls reappear (which where there to begin with).



If the paint was so soft (that it marred in the wipedown) I would probably recommend a glaze and a carnauba wax anyways, since sealants like Zaino and Werkstatt high light marring and will make the surface appear to degrade faster (IMO).



Yes (and I know I am about to catch the heat, but when can you accuse me of holding my tongue) I have noticed bonding issues with Zaino in the past.



Myself and Ryan have talked about this, and if you look at some recent posts about people getting poor durability from Zaino (and Zaino will last 6 months in tough climates) a lot of times people prepped the car (that got bad durability) with 106ff. I think the recent string of people having poor durability from the king of durablity is because 106ff was used in the equations and the oils where not properly removed.



I have noticed streaking when applying on top of 106ff before (even after a Z7 wash or alcohol wipe down). Wiping the area with prep-sol and going straight to Zaino ended the problem.



I have also seen Z-AIO have problems when worked on top of 106ff (hazy and hard to remove, almost will leave a blotchey appearance).



So if you use Zaino after 106ff, I would absolutely recommend wiping with prep-sol.



If you are using another sealant (less finicky) like Werkstatt, I think Prime (or Klasse AIO) will remove the the oils.



So on cars I use Zaino on, I wipe down the paint with Prep-Sol then rewash with Z7. I have never had a problem since.
 
First I have to say that all of you pros did a great job at discussing this matter in a great fashion and this is what forums are suppose to be like. We are all here to help each other out and this is the way it should always be.



Excellent work!
 
wannafbody said:
I think a possible issue is that the abrasives in SIP and 106 are very hard and sharp. They probably cut too well on medium-hard clears. This leaves a slightly imperfect finish for the oils and wax to fill. I think the wisest course of action is to reserve SIP and 106 for super hard clears.
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Well said!:xyxthumbs
 
David Fermani said:
Todd - Do you ever find yourself marring your corrected finish from wiping it down with Prepsol/MF? Soft finishes are so delicate to begin with, I'd hate to do all that extra work just to have to re-polish it again. Have you ever found that this oil interfers with the bonding of any LSP's?
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If an IPA or Prepsol wipedown dulls the paint then either:



A. The finish polish is just hovering the surface due to lubes



B. The finish polish is too agressive



C. Incorrect finish pad is being used for the finicky paint causing pad abrasions



D. Too much heat



When all the correct measures are taken a wipedown should make the paint glossy and clear.



Hope this helps;)
 
Wow this is some great discussion

I use all the Menz ceramiclear polishes on single stage, normal clear and ceramiclear paints and spend three and a half to five minutes with the makita rotary (1500 to 1800, then down through the speed range to burnish)



Due to this time, I have not seen any filling happen, even with prepsol

However on some blacks I finish with PO85RD Finishing polish with blue LC pad for an even better finish



If it is being used with a PC and the user is not spending the time necessary to break down the abrasives and melt out or burn up the oils, then yeah it's gonna fill and probably leave marring



After my busy schedule has ended next week, I will get one of the dark coloured cars and do a test with the menzerna and deliberately do prepsol wipedowns and then if it doesn't show any marks, leave the car for a week and then wash it with a good car wash soap and inspect with the sodium and halogen lights



Then if those same marks (not gonna swirl it in one wash , especially the way I do it) return then ok it fills



The lube in question is Parrafin white mineral oil plus a little glycerin

I think the key here is rotary only and alot of time to make sure it's broken down and oils burnt up
 
Pennypacker said:
Where's the best place to buy Prepsol? Are there any online sources? TIA
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If you have a paint and body supply place in your town, they should have it.



On a side note, believe it or not, I was at Wal Mart recently, and was looking around in the section where they have Bondo, auto paint, etc... They had some stuff called "Prep All" (I believe). It was in a metal can, and said it was for removing wax, and prepping a surface for paint. I was in a rush, and didn't have a chance to read the list of ingredients, so you may want to take a look around Wally World.
 
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