imported_AZ Ferrari Man
New member
Wow looking good! BTW what is cosmoline, great turnaround again.
Andrew
Andrew
~Pictures~ The Horror of Wheel Wells
- Thread starter InTheAir
- Start date
It took me 5 hours to do all four, which included the time to jack up, remove wheels, clean wells, dress, clean wheels, and remount.Cosmom3 said:
I did not cover the brake lines, however I did stay away from direct, close-in spray of the lines and suspension bushings.
The products used to clean the wells (i.e. Gunk Citrus and Carbon X) did not/do not jeopardize the integrity of the metals. The Gunk is citrus based and, although a good clean, does not pit or damage the metals. The Carbon X is an aviation degreaser that is specially designed not to effect the metal composition/integrity.
The rotor hats were painted with a High Heat Engine Enamel paint. They were taped off to exposed only the hat portion (a number of months ago), generally sanded, and then sprayed. Any small amount of overspray on the rotor face wears off during the first application of brakes. Here are some pictures:
Accumulator
Well-known member
InTheAir said:As you know, around these Upper Midwest parts, winters mean salt. So, no, the car has never seen winter driving.
Yeah, it only takes a few trips through the salt and then things are never quite the same; short of disassembly/refinishing I just can't get mine the way I'd like them
It was a real treat to see how nicely your pieces cleaned up! Heh heh, you make me want to replace my anti-swaybars and some other stuff or at least pull mine and get them powdercoated (maybe some day..).CosmoM3- I've been cleaning up my E36 as my latest project. It was a year-round driver from New England that'd never been cleaned. Heh heh, talk about a nasty mess and *NO* it's not gonna look anything at all like InTheAir's Porsche!
I'm not using a pressure washer and you don't want to know how long it's taking
But I suspect your car isn't *nearly* as nasty as this one is (example: after the initial degreasing, I still scooped handfuls of sludge off some parts with rubber gloves).One of the considerations with the BMWs is the factory wax-based undercoating/rust preventative. Dirt doesn't just stick to it, dirt *impregnates* it. I didn't want to strip off said undercoating and striking a balance between not-clean-enough and "oops, stripped it all off" is tricky. I'm settling for not-clean-enough as it's just my beater (or so I keep telling myself) but it's disappointing to see how crappy it still looks after so much work. If you don't care about the undercoating I'd consider just using a solvent after you get the worst of the stuff off.
Pull the plastic liners out of your front inner fenders, you won't *believe* what you find in there
Between the pine needles, big dead bugs (and I mean *big*) and all the dirt, my drains were almost completely clogged. I found some surface rust too, good thing I spotted it before it became serious. Lots of out-of-sight stuff isn't painted the way you'd expect for a BMW so I plan to spray some rust preventative (the AutoInt aerosol stuff) before I put it back together.I'm using lots of brushes and various citrus degreasers along with my steamer. For areas where I'm being careful with the undercoating I like P21S Total Auto Wash. For stuff like plastics and the exhaust heat shield I'm just using a solvent (Wurth Cleans-All).
Sweet, well I hope to have my car looking somewhat like InTheAir's car. The only thing I can think of is my suspension which will make it even compare though :woot2: Anyways back to reality for a moment.
1) Would a simple degreaser such as Gunk Engine Cleaner work for this project.
2) Is there any product that will help me remove the rust off my calipers?
3) At what point would I be removing the anti rust formula that is on the e36 (not aware of so thankyou)
4) And following up on the Anti rust question, would this mean spraying any degreaser in my wheel well could potentially be a bad thing?
5) What are some things you'd reccomend for masking off during my project.
Basically I plan on doing a basic undercarige cleaning using some basic degreaser and preasure washer (after my question is answered on the anti rust solution) while also bringing back the wheel wells to life.
One other question though for InTheAir. What exactly was the process for painting your hub? Just degrease, sand, primer and paint.
Mine is so nasty as Accumulator can probably vouge (sp) for seeing his own e36. A quick write-up based strictly on your steps would be more than fantastic. Im getting a good idea of what Im in for based on your pictures you displayed, but I need to know a little more.
This is a great thread btw, thankyou for sharing :hifive:
-Andrew
1) Would a simple degreaser such as Gunk Engine Cleaner work for this project.
2) Is there any product that will help me remove the rust off my calipers?
3) At what point would I be removing the anti rust formula that is on the e36 (not aware of so thankyou)
4) And following up on the Anti rust question, would this mean spraying any degreaser in my wheel well could potentially be a bad thing?
5) What are some things you'd reccomend for masking off during my project.
Basically I plan on doing a basic undercarige cleaning using some basic degreaser and preasure washer (after my question is answered on the anti rust solution) while also bringing back the wheel wells to life.
One other question though for InTheAir. What exactly was the process for painting your hub? Just degrease, sand, primer and paint.
Mine is so nasty as Accumulator can probably vouge (sp) for seeing his own e36. A quick write-up based strictly on your steps would be more than fantastic. Im getting a good idea of what Im in for based on your pictures you displayed, but I need to know a little more.
This is a great thread btw, thankyou for sharing :hifive:
-Andrew
Accum--Accumulator said:Yeah, it only takes a few trips through the salt and then things are never quite the same; short of disassembly/refinishing I just can't get mine the way I'd like them
CosmoM3- I've been cleaning up my E36 as my latest project. It was a year-round driver from New England that'd never been cleaned. Heh heh, talk about a nasty mess and *NO* it's not gonna look anything at all like InTheAir's Porsche!
I'm not using a pressure washer and you don't want to know how long it's taking
One of the considerations with the BMWs is the factory wax-based undercoating/rust preventative. Dirt doesn't just stick to it, dirt *impregnates* it. I didn't want to strip off said undercoating and striking a balance between not-clean-enough and "oops, stripped it all off" is tricky. I'm settling for not-clean-enough as it's just my beater (or so I keep telling myself) but it's disappointing to see how crappy it still looks after so much work. If you don't care about the undercoating I'd consider just using a solvent after you get the worst of the stuff off.
Pull the plastic liners out of your front inner fenders, you won't *believe* what you find in there
I'm using lots of brushes and various citrus degreasers along with my steamer. For areas where I'm being careful with the undercoating I like P21S Total Auto Wash. For stuff like plastics and the exhaust heat shield I'm just using a solvent (Wurth Cleans-All).
For those tough spots, you might also want to try Carbon X (at full strength). It is an aviation degreaser that will not harm the integrity of the metal, but does a great job of getting the grime off. Just let it dwell for 10-20 minutes.
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&product_id=344
Cosmom3 said:
1)Gunk Engine Cleaner will work, however it is a lot more caustic than the Gunk Citrus Degreaser and I'm not sure it works any better. HOWEVER, THE ENGINE CLEANER MAY HARM RUBBER AND/OR PAINT. There is a lot of rubber hoses, boots, bushings, etc. in the wells, so I think the Citrus is a better choice. Additionally, if you doing this in your driveway, the citrus won't kill your grass or plants nearby.
2)Removing the rust? I think you would need to pull the rotors and have them chemically stripped down to fresh metal. You could then have them (the hats) plated or otherwise coated. However, simply sanding them (again, only the hats) down to rough up the surface and then covering them with a high heat Rustoleom will probably do the trick.
3/4) If you are removing the cosmoline, then you are removing the rust preventor. However, if you linkages are aluminum (like mine), then they won't rust.
5) I didn't mask off anything during my cleaning. However, just stay away from directing the pressure washer spray ~directly~ at your suspension bushings, tube connectors, etc.
o Take off wheels
o Gently sand rotor hats with 600 grit or so sand paper to take some of the rust off and remove any loose particles.
o Cover the calipers with a plastic bag
o Tape off area with blue tape, including most of the rotor face, studs, etc.
o Put plastic drop cloth over car and wrap around hub assembly, exposing rotors only
o Spray rotor hats with High Heat paint
o Rotate rotors slightly to expose unpainted area and ... paint.
o Clean up.
Accumulator
Well-known member
InTheAir- Thanks for the tip on the Carbon X. Should I be crazy enough to try this on another such disgusting candidate I'll give it a try. Would it strip off the OE undercoating?
Note that the BMW undercoating isn't cosmoline. I might be splitting hairs here, but I'm familiar with cosmoline from other applications and the wax-based stuff on the BMWs is different.
CosmoM3- I'll add my $0.02 to what InTheAir has posted (spent yesterday under mine again). LONG-winded post follows:
1) I'd stick with the citrus degreaser as there's just too much stuff you'd have to be careful with otherwise. Also, you're likely to get a lot of whatever you use on *you* when you're under there. Even with a face shield the citrus stuff is as nasty as I'd want on me (wear your worst work clothes for this job).
2) I had my (new) rotors zinc-plated...not a bad solution but there's already some light rust on the hats and other areas that I sure didn't expect. Maybe they did a crappy job on mine or maybe they chipped the plating during the install, but I'm not about to pull them off to redo it.
I'd try a rust dissolver (Eastwood has a few good ones), wire brushing the outer edges and other places like the hats where it's not too hard to gain access. Soak a rag with the rust dissolver and find a way to hold it against the rusted metal so it can dwell for a long time. Then I'd paint with caliper paint.
I used that derusting regimen on some spots on the RX-7 and it worked well. But for the rotors, if yours are nasty I'd probably just do it when you get your next set of new ones.
3) This is sorta the tricky point. The citrus stuff *will* dissolve the undercoat if you let it dwell long enough. And the steamer will melt it too. Yet you gotta effect some solvent action to get the dirt out of it. I'm afraid trial-and-error are gonna end up being the most practical route. Err on the side of caution and then go back and do some more.
*Do not* let the citrus stuff dwell for 10-20 minutes like you can in the engine compartment. That would effect too much solvent action on the undercoat. Spray, wait a few minutes, agitate with brush/sponge, rinse, inspect. You'll see the waxy undercoating in your rinse bucket and it'll stick to your sponge (doesn't stick to natural-bristle brushes though).
If you do it right, you can dissolve the undercoat a bit, work it to clean it, and then have it reharden in place in a thin, clear coating.
The worst of the dirt will come off easily. You'll see how the remaining stuff sticks to/in the undercoat. You can *feel* the undercoat with your hands and you'll see how it sheets the water too. Jus stop short of removing all of it. This fine line between not enough and too much is why I didn't get out the pressure washer (which I'd use on other cars with no hesitation).
You can clean the subframe rails by spraying the degreaser on and agitating with your hands (in rubber dishwashing gloves with textured palms/fingers).
As InThe Air noted, there's no need for that stuff on plastic or aluminum (not much aluminum on the e36 compared to Porsches and Audis) so I just use a solvent to remove it from those surfaces.
4) Sorry, I wan't clear When you pull the fender liners (easy, 7mm for most of the screws and 10mm for the nut at the top of the ABS module) you'll find (in addition to all the [stuff] back at the rear of the fender on top of the rocker panel) that there's *no* factory undercoat where you'd expect to need it! Not even decent paint. There's nothing to clean out/off except dirt. Just clean it up, let it dry, fix any surface rust, and spray some of the AutoInt Rust Inhibitor in the obvious places. If it's not as obvious as I think it'll be just post back and I'll elaborate.
And if you're using citrus degreasers, they don't attack the undercoating all *that* fast anyhow. If you get them someplace you don't want them you can just rinse it off, no problems.
5) I didn't mask off anything during the cleaning either. If I decide to paint anything (man are my anti-swaybars rusty) I'll either just do it with a brush or else I'll mask everything the way InTheAir did when he shot the rotors.
Noting again that I wasn't using the pressure washer, I didn't take any real precautions other than the lowest-level common sense. It's mostly all big steel parts and thick rubber bushings. Downside is that instead of shining up nice aluminum A-arms you have to decide what to do with rusty steel ones (I'm leaving mine go for now). The few aluminum parts would probably shine up nicely with more effort than I'm putting into it.
Other sorta-e36-specific notes:
The sheetmetal cover for your fuel pump will probably be *really* nasty/rusty. I sent mine off for stripping and powdercoating. You can drive around without it OK. Don't lose the weird sheetmetal nuts that fit two (of the four) retaining points, the dealers don't have them (the other two are just screws, I got new ones).
If anybody's jacked the car up improperly and messed up the paint/undercoat on the frame rails (grrr :angry careless jerks! ) I'd retreat it. I'm gonna use Wurth Body Protection for this as I think it'll be more like the factory stuff than the AutoInt Rust Inhibitor.
There are some hard-to-access areas in the engine compartment, but there's little undercoat in there. The more you can do without needing mechanical agitation the better, so let the degreasers dwell in that case. The area below the master cylinder where the four brake lines are is a good example- filthy and hard to reach.
Expect a nasty mess around the powersteering pump and its hoses.
Note that the BMW undercoating isn't cosmoline. I might be splitting hairs here, but I'm familiar with cosmoline from other applications and the wax-based stuff on the BMWs is different.
CosmoM3- I'll add my $0.02 to what InTheAir has posted (spent yesterday under mine again). LONG-winded post follows:
1) I'd stick with the citrus degreaser as there's just too much stuff you'd have to be careful with otherwise. Also, you're likely to get a lot of whatever you use on *you* when you're under there. Even with a face shield the citrus stuff is as nasty as I'd want on me (wear your worst work clothes for this job).
2) I had my (new) rotors zinc-plated...not a bad solution but there's already some light rust on the hats and other areas that I sure didn't expect. Maybe they did a crappy job on mine or maybe they chipped the plating during the install, but I'm not about to pull them off to redo it.
I'd try a rust dissolver (Eastwood has a few good ones), wire brushing the outer edges and other places like the hats where it's not too hard to gain access. Soak a rag with the rust dissolver and find a way to hold it against the rusted metal so it can dwell for a long time. Then I'd paint with caliper paint.
I used that derusting regimen on some spots on the RX-7 and it worked well. But for the rotors, if yours are nasty I'd probably just do it when you get your next set of new ones.
3) This is sorta the tricky point. The citrus stuff *will* dissolve the undercoat if you let it dwell long enough. And the steamer will melt it too. Yet you gotta effect some solvent action to get the dirt out of it. I'm afraid trial-and-error are gonna end up being the most practical route. Err on the side of caution and then go back and do some more.
*Do not* let the citrus stuff dwell for 10-20 minutes like you can in the engine compartment. That would effect too much solvent action on the undercoat. Spray, wait a few minutes, agitate with brush/sponge, rinse, inspect. You'll see the waxy undercoating in your rinse bucket and it'll stick to your sponge (doesn't stick to natural-bristle brushes though).
If you do it right, you can dissolve the undercoat a bit, work it to clean it, and then have it reharden in place in a thin, clear coating.
The worst of the dirt will come off easily. You'll see how the remaining stuff sticks to/in the undercoat. You can *feel* the undercoat with your hands and you'll see how it sheets the water too. Jus stop short of removing all of it. This fine line between not enough and too much is why I didn't get out the pressure washer (which I'd use on other cars with no hesitation).
You can clean the subframe rails by spraying the degreaser on and agitating with your hands (in rubber dishwashing gloves with textured palms/fingers).
As InThe Air noted, there's no need for that stuff on plastic or aluminum (not much aluminum on the e36 compared to Porsches and Audis) so I just use a solvent to remove it from those surfaces.
4) Sorry, I wan't clear
When you pull the fender liners (easy, 7mm for most of the screws and 10mm for the nut at the top of the ABS module) you'll find (in addition to all the [stuff] back at the rear of the fender on top of the rocker panel) that there's *no* factory undercoat where you'd expect to need it! Not even decent paint. There's nothing to clean out/off except dirt. Just clean it up, let it dry, fix any surface rust, and spray some of the AutoInt Rust Inhibitor in the obvious places. If it's not as obvious as I think it'll be just post back and I'll elaborate.And if you're using citrus degreasers, they don't attack the undercoating all *that* fast anyhow. If you get them someplace you don't want them you can just rinse it off, no problems.
5) I didn't mask off anything during the cleaning either. If I decide to paint anything (man are my anti-swaybars rusty) I'll either just do it with a brush or else I'll mask everything the way InTheAir did when he shot the rotors.
Noting again that I wasn't using the pressure washer, I didn't take any real precautions other than the lowest-level common sense. It's mostly all big steel parts and thick rubber bushings. Downside is that instead of shining up nice aluminum A-arms you have to decide what to do with rusty steel ones (I'm leaving mine go for now). The few aluminum parts would probably shine up nicely with more effort than I'm putting into it.
Other sorta-e36-specific notes:
The sheetmetal cover for your fuel pump will probably be *really* nasty/rusty. I sent mine off for stripping and powdercoating. You can drive around without it OK. Don't lose the weird sheetmetal nuts that fit two (of the four) retaining points, the dealers don't have them (the other two are just screws, I got new ones).
If anybody's jacked the car up improperly and messed up the paint/undercoat on the frame rails (grrr :angry careless jerks! ) I'd retreat it. I'm gonna use Wurth Body Protection for this as I think it'll be more like the factory stuff than the AutoInt Rust Inhibitor.
There are some hard-to-access areas in the engine compartment, but there's little undercoat in there. The more you can do without needing mechanical agitation the better, so let the degreasers dwell in that case. The area below the master cylinder where the four brake lines are is a good example- filthy and hard to reach.
Expect a nasty mess around the powersteering pump and its hoses.
Thanks so much both of you for your write-ups. I got everything I need to do. Its weird, paint is ussually the only thing I have ever cared about , but now I find myself worrying about wheel wells :sosad Anyways at my autox events I take off my wheels every time only to feel like crap.
I do most the work on my car, so removing the rotors might be another alternative. Blah :hifive:
Thanks again so much guys for your in debth write-ups :hifive:
I do most the work on my car, so removing the rotors might be another alternative. Blah :hifive:
Thanks again so much guys for your in debth write-ups :hifive:
Accumulator
Well-known member
IMO the credit oghta go to InTheAir, I kinda felt like I was horning in on his thread
Those Porsche pictures are great, and his results have motivated me to take the M3 a bit farther than I had planned. Nothing like before and afters that really show the progress to get the "you can do it" message across :xyxthumbs Heh heh, sorta got another message across too: "you oughta do it"
For some reason I enjoy cleaning up stuff like this more than I enjoy the more normal aspects of detailing :nixweiss Since you do your own work, you'll appreciate having things nice and clean (I know my mechanic does).
Those Porsche pictures are great, and his results have motivated me to take the M3 a bit farther than I had planned. Nothing like before and afters that really show the progress to get the "you can do it" message across :xyxthumbs Heh heh, sorta got another message across too: "you oughta do it"
For some reason I enjoy cleaning up stuff like this more than I enjoy the more normal aspects of detailing :nixweiss Since you do your own work, you'll appreciate having things nice and clean (I know my mechanic does).
Accumulator said:IMO the credit oghta go to InTheAir, I kinda felt like I was horning in on his thread
For some reason I enjoy cleaning up stuff like this more than I enjoy the more normal aspects of detailing :nixweiss Since you do your own work, you'll appreciate having things nice and clean (I know my mechanic does).
Thats the reason Im doing it, because its so damned ugly to look at and after I come from under the car I am too :sign
InTheAir :hifive: Nice write-up man, thanks for all your great advice.
Accumulator I appreciate your advice as well, seeing how we have the same car. Im sure InTheAir does not mind you trying to help as well :2thumbs: