Perfection V Originality

M

Mr Concours

New member
What is the general consensus on judging an original car competing against a fully restored car?



I can't help feeling there should be some kind of concession for an unrestored original car,I see this quite often an elderly owner ,possibly the first owner or second owner of a original car kept out of the silverware because someone has trailered a 'fresh from the workshop' ground up restoration,that really is to such a high standard that the factory would have never have dreamed of on their best Day!



Don't you think that original is only original once and that its better to see something that isn't 'overestored'. While I do admit it isnt always possible to find a nice low milage original car to show and you might have to fully restore a car to make it a contender why not go for an original type finish? All to often I see a paint job on a post war car that really is just far too good,if every car that came out of the factory had a slight orange peel should I/we mark it down as its unoriginal?

I guess this whole Perfection V Originality is a bigger nightmare when you are Judging multi marque shows and not so bad if just Judging a one make event.



Yes you do get a WOW factor on a full restoration to a show standard, I would just like to see some of the little guys get some credit and not always the person with the biggest cheque book win.



Rant over!
 
I agree 100% - a true concours car if restored should be done to a factory finish. I am having to have doubts weather my car will be going in the concours in our club this year as it will be in a class with both modified and over restored cars. I am not willing to sacrifice the origionality of my car just to be competitive.



In reality origionality comes down to wether a judge can spot this or not, if the judge knows a car is un origional in finish or apperance they should mark the car down. In reality the person with the most money is always going to have a better chance.
 
Quote: Perfection V Originality



~One mans opinion / observation~



Perhaps things are different in the US but an original will always win over a restored vehicle in English Concourse events (most have the original; sticker, tools and owners manual, not having any of these will mean point deductions) Most judges can tell the difference between an original and a restored vehicle.



I remember Lynn saying once that one car (a Jaguar I think) had an Optima battery installed and yet the owner was not penalized for it.



Mr Concourse, I started to read your Concourse 101, excellent thus far, with your attention to detail if you ever think of showing Jags on the English concourse circuit let me know so that I can retire while I’m ahead. Thanks for your insights (if nothing else it proves to my GF that I’m not the only crazy detail guy around, if nothing else thanks for that LOL )



~ Hope this helps ~



Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/



justadumbarchitect * so i question everything*
 
I have a friend who restores '60s Corvettes. He has learned how to paint them badly, to match the St Louis (was it StL in the '60s? I forget) factory orange peel.



Tom
 
I don't think its a "little guy vs. Big Money" competition. I think most knowledgeable collectors will agree 100% with your assertion that a car is original only once, and those collectors will step up and pay the mega$$$$$$$ to obtain those cars. And I'd also think more knowledgeable show judges will score a car properly with the understanding that a car they're looking at is 100% original, patina and all.



It really depends on the show itself and the type of judging. Most shows are rather casual where flash and eye sizzle get the most attention and awards. You're spot on about multi-marque shows where judges simply are not knowledgable enough to quickly determine the originality vs. restored perfection. A car with a 30 yr old paint job that shows both great care and regular use has no chance to win a "Best Paint" award when the competition is there with fresh resprays.



Ultimately I think its incumbent upon the vehicle owner to ensure he is competing at the best show for him and his car. Look for shows that recognize originality (like a "survivor" class) over perfection and I think you'll be much happier.



For some perspective, read this article: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=7374
 
Yeah, JCNA has a "preservation" class, so the original Jaguars aren't up against "better than new" restorations. Heh heh, I'm a rather extreme example of "better imperfect and original than redone to perfection", myself. I love the patina of honest use. It seems this isn't valued as much here in the states as it is across the pond.
 
In Porsche Club Concours events in Zone 8 (SoCal, NV and AZ) we have a seperate division called Unrestored.



This is for Porsche's which are:



* 10+ years old

* 75%+ original paint

* 75%+ original interior



This allows the older original cars to compete fairly.
 
JB in Irvine said:
In Porsche Club Concours events in Zone 8 (SoCal, NV and AZ) we have a seperate division called Unrestored.



This is for Porsche's which are:



* 10+ years old

* 75%+ original paint

* 75%+ original interior



This allows the older original cars to compete fairly.
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JB, How does this work in practice?
 
Mr Concours said:
JB, How does this work in practice?
Click to expand...



It works well.



If someone has a low mileage, true garage queen, then they will likely bypass Unrestored Division and do Full Concours or Street any way. Its their choice.



In Unrestored and Street Division we judge:

* Exterior

* Interior

* Storage

* Engine



Full Concours does all of that PLUS Undercarriage.
 
This topic has been on my mind for a while. I've heard MB judges complaining about this exact topic for a while and it makes me wonder in reality which car would win?



The more I read about PCNA and it's rules/classifications the more I wish I had a Porsche. It appears that PCNA is is much more evolved as a club than MBCA. MBCA doesn't even allow newer car classes to enter concours.:down
 
MBZ 500E said:
This topic has been on my mind for a while. I've heard MB judges complaining about this exact topic for a while and it makes me wonder in reality which car would win?
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Then don't even THINK about showing in a Jag (JCNA) Concours, MBZ. Those judges will go for a 2004-era-paint, everything-under-the-hood-polished-to-a-mirror-finish, over-restored car every time. :grrr



Judging is at the root of the problem, I think. JCNA relies on amateur/volunteer judges (and, yes, I've been one). They can't know as much as they should ... and they too often get assigned to a class they don't really know -- so all they can do is judge the "ZING" factor of how bright-and-shiny it is. So, yeah, the guy with the checkbook will win. :(



Oh, never mind. Just don't get me started.
 
Hahaha Lynn... Sorry i don't mean to laugh because it's not a laughing matter. I though the whole point is to make an old car look like it did when it came out of the factory... I will never understand why cars that have been "over-restored" win or are even in the same class. Some people take these sorts of things very seriously, i can only imagine what their opinions are.
 
I spend A LOT of time around people who restore cars for a living, ranging from the sublime to the silly and there are very distinct trends in the UK right now.



There will always be those who strive to keep cars totally original in terms of specification, appearance and so on - the patina inside a classic British sports cars is one of the things which IMO make a classic a "proper" classic. I've even met a client restoring a very expensive Maserati Birdcage and the owner had spent thousands in recreating the original look to the interior and body (i.e. removing corrosion but retaining the "race worn" look of the body).



On the opposite side of things you have people spending serious money on having cars restored beyond factory - good example is the cost of taking a DB5 Aston to this level and it costing over £150,000. This seems to be on the increase but it may reflect the fact that there's new money in the classic car scene and they want different things for their money.



As I see both sides regularly, I enjoy both and don't like or dislike one or the other. I see it as a 1930's Bentley, all original and properly patinated is just as special as a totally renewed 60's classic.



Most classic car concours I've attended (not judged or entered mind) seem to make the distinction between original and over restored and judge and award points accordingly - i.e. a "new" classic would be unlikely to take points away from an original of the same model.



It's also VERY hard now to obtain original parts for some cars and the cost can be horrific. Remember my little 205? As Rich said to me, getting grey trim is difficult.



I've been in workshops with row on row of shelves stacked with original parts for all sorts of cars - worth nothing as stock but priceless in years to come.



Just my 2 cents but I love cars whatever they look like - it's a very addictive hobby!
 
~One mans opinion / observation~



Lynn you’ll have to take your Jaguar’s to England and enter them in a Concours d’élégance event, only thing is it’ll spoil you for ‘new money concourse’ US events.





Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/

justadumbarchitect * so i question everything*
 
Lynn said:
Then don't even THINK about showing in a Jag (JCNA) Concours, MBZ. Those judges will go for a 2004-era-paint, everything-under-the-hood-polished-to-a-mirror-finish, over-restored car every time. :grrr ......
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In PCA events (Zone 8 anyway), the whole judging is not subjective.



Its either clean or its not.



Its either scratch free or not.



A part such as a rubber weather strip is in good condition or its not.



All cars start with a perfect score and are deducted for any short comings. We don't judge originality although the owners generally strive for it.



If someone has chromed half the engine bay it doesn't matter either way. It will just be a matter of whether the chrome is clean or not.



That being said a Restored Car is going to have an advantage over a car that has much wear and tear. Thats why we have the Unrestored Class.
 
What do you guys think to say large multipul marque (large) event giving an unrestored/original car,say a 10 point head start to make it fairer or do you think the fully restored lot would throw all their toys out of the pram?



Thoughts on how this would go down within your own clubs much appreciated.
 
I know many would throw a fit if this was allowed simply because a great condition original could beat their big bucks restoration. It would probably drive up the price of a good original condition car too.:cool: I know the head judge for MBCA in SoCal, I'll ask him his opinion and post it here later.



OT: One thing I know MBCA does in their concours street class juding is a point adder for mileage. I believe every 10K miles is worth X amount of points.
 
MBZ 500E,I guess points for high milage would work well on a modern model streetclass (Porsche springs to mind) but not so well for say, cars over 20 Years old.
 
Mr Concours said:
What do you guys think to say large multipul marque (large) event giving an unrestored/original car,say a 10 point head start to make it fairer or do you think the fully restored lot would throw all their toys out of the pram?



Thoughts on how this would go down within your own clubs much appreciated.
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I am not a fan of any type of artificial adjustments to scores. There are just too many exceptions I can point to.



If you adjust for:



Age

Then the person with the recent model daily driver is unfairly disadvantaged. There may have to compete against a much older car that in fact has much lower miles.



Miles

Anyone can take a high mileage car and restore it to better than new. Same with an old car.



Restored Vs Unrestored

If you penalize restored cars, then you are creating a very negative environment that incents people not to fix up their cars. Personally I love to see a prestine fully restored 356 Speedster. I see nothing of interest in a worn out vehicle.



Original Vs Modified

At PCA Zone 8 we do not judge originality. This is a good thing. It allows people with modified cars to come out and show their cars. The more cars the better. So what if the 911 owner has added a GT3 wing on the back. So what if they have added a racing harness for track time. If the owner has prepared the car better then the stock standard 911 next to them, then they should win.



Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate very much seeing an older vehicle totally original. However I don't think we should penalize folks for modifying their cars so they can enjoy them more. Doing so just limits the number of people who will show.





So how do we keep a level playing field?

First of all, we have a seperate division for Unrestored cars. They are cars which are 10+ years old and have 75% original paint and interior.



Secondly within all the divisions (including Unrestored) we have sub classes. So for example a 1956 356 is got going to compete directly against a 1993 911.



Doing all of the above, means we get a good turn out for our shows. During 2003 we had 12 Concours Events in SoCal, AZ and NV, with over 400 cars shown. At our event we want to encorage owners of new vehciles to join is, just as much as the owner of the 356 garage queen.



JB

PCA Zone 8 Concours Chair
 
JB in Irvine said:
I am not a fan of any type of artificial adjustments to scores. There are just too many exceptions I can point to.



Original Vs Modified

At PCA Zone 8 we do not judge originality. This is a good thing. It allows people with modified cars to come out and show their cars. The more cars the better. So what if the 911 owner has added a GT3 wing on the back. So what if they have added a racing harness for track time. If the owner has prepared the car better then the stock standard 911 next to them, then they should win.



Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate very much seeing an older vehicle totally original. However I don't think we should penalize folks for modifying their cars so they can enjoy them more. Doing so just limits the number of people who will show.



JB

PCA Zone 8 Concours Chair
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JB, am I understanding this correct that PCNA doesn't have a modified class? I noted that a good percentage of Porsches showing at HB last year were modified but I assumed they were in a separate class.



I don't have a problem with a restored vehicles and like you I appreciate the time and effort required to achieve the results. I just wonder if it's fair to judge them against an original vehicle, as I mentioned MBCA doesn't have a separate classification and it sounds like JCNA doesn't either.



BTW I sent out my check for the concours class next weekend, looking forward to learning from you in person.:)
 
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