PC newbie: Information Overload

[Ants]

Alright guys,



I've been reading these forums for a while now and just tried my hand at polishing with a PC. I'm rather confused now and I don't know where to begin. First off, the car: 2007 Alpine White BMW 335i. Is this a hard paint? Reading the forums I see that it varies and all I see is that black is soft I have yet to read anything about the white.



So initially I started off with some stuff my friend lent me (his PC, pads and DACP). Unsure of the pad brand, def not LC, yellow is a light cut and orange is a step higher in cut. I wanna say they're 4" pads too.



I tried DACP + yellow light cutting pad on the car (although in hindsight) i'm fairly sure I didn't give the polish enough time to work in. Applied @ 3, then a quick run over on 5 then I wiped it off. Not nearly enough time, so obviously this was a failed attempt. I ended up doing this outside on a cloudy day and wound up with a bunch of caked on dust



Since I ran out of the DACP my friend gave me I ordered some M80. So this time I used the orange cutting pad (again sorry dont know brand) + M80. This time around I made sure to work on a 1.5' x 1.5' area. Inside the garage, I would work in the polish at 3 then go over it nice and slow @ 5. Overall probably about 3-4 minutes spent breaking it down. From what I could tell after about 4 passes in the same area, the minor swirls were gone but there was still plenty (by plenty I mean a lot) of deeper cuts in the paint. Potentially RIDs?



So my question is: When do you know you have to go to more rocks in a bottle? Is 4 passes enough? Is that when I should say forget this, and get maybe some Menzerna PG or SIP? Do I go back and get some M105 instead? Is alpine white a hard CC'd color? I'm so confused!



Thanks all!



[edit]One more thing how do you guys go about polishing a white car? I have a ton of trouble seeing the haze where there is and isnt polish! I think when I try again, I'll just blue tape the car into sections. is that how you guys handle awhite car? [/edit]



Ants

 

[Atlantic Euro]

Yellow is usually a higher cut than orange.



I'd get a set of good LC pads and a set of polishes you can use predictably.



The general rule is if you can feel a scratch with your fingernail, it is going to stay there, and your goal is to minimize the visibility.

 

[Ants]

Its not a scratch you can feel. I actually cant see the scratch under day light. When I drive into one of those yellow tungsten powered parking lots the swirls show up in full force!

 

[Accumulator]

Ants- I fully understand the info overload. I'll try to sort things out a little. Long-winded reply follows:

I'd get a set of good LC pads and a set of polishes you can use predictably.

That's great advice! Limit the variables and if something is confusing (e.g., which pad has what level of cut) that's more likely to impede progress than facilitate it.



At this point I wouldn't worry about whether your paint is "soft" or "hard". Those scare-quotes are intentional because it's *hard relative to what you tried to correct it with*.



Side note regarding #83/DACP- it needs to be worked quite a while not only so it can do the correction but also so it can break down and not leave micromarring.



This is a big part of why I'm not a fan of #83 and why I believe the M105/M205 twins are good not just for experienced detailers, but also for newbies- NO "is it broken down yet" issues with these non-diminishing abrasive products.



You made some progress, right? But you want more. OK...



The four tries with #80 isn't all that aggressive. #80 is a pretty mild product and I bet you need something with a bit more cut. Might've taken forever, but it didn't take off much clear (for better and/or for worse) and that's what counts.



You were doing the *right* thing by working a relatively small area :xyxthumbs And if taping off smallish sections works for you, then do it. I sometimes do that exact thing myself.



I do recommend you get some M105. It's the aggressive product I'd recommend and I would use it to get the more serious marring/RIDS improved. M105 is pretty user-friendly in the sense of having a nice shallow learning curve; you'll probably be comfortable with it after just a little while. Do *NOT* use the "spread at 3, then speed up" with this product. Just prime the pad properly (as per Kevin Brown ), set it on the paint, and go at speed 5 (or higher if you're using pads larger than 4"). Work it until the scratches are gone or the product starts to dry out, it doesn't break down, it just dries out so don't over-work it to that point.



I dunno how far you should go; the "nothing but perfection" approach that's so prevalent here can get people into trouble and IMO you oughta shoot for "much better but not perfect" instead. M105 will get you there a whole lot faster than #83, let alone #80.



Once the M105 gets things more to your liking you can finish up with the #80, though I do also recommend M205 and IME it leaves a nicer finish than the #80.



Working on white does present some unique challenges. You'll just have to experiment with lighting until you find what works for you. Much as I knock fluorescent lights for correction, sometimes they work well for white paint. A lot of this is, unfortunately, a matter of experience; you actually do have to "learn how to look at" the paint in question, both while doing the correction and when doing inspection. Sorry, I know that's not too encouraging but there's no magic answer to this. After a while, you'll learn to see the white product on top of the white paint and it'll be one of those "aha!" epiphanies.

 

[Ants]

Sticking with Meguiars isnt a bad thing. When I ordered the M80 I realized I should have just ordered the 105/205 combo. I was just hoping M80 had enough cut to do what I needed it to.



I'll look into the Kevin Brown method now I've been hearing that thrown around quite a bit and I think that will definitely help me!



So the kevin brown method you basically put it all over the pad evenly, then go to town? B/c 105 is non diminishing, do I just stop every couple minutes, wipe off, then check progress? I'm assuming after a while, the pad will need to be reprimed, rinse and repeat?



Thanks Accumulator!

 

[Atlantic Euro]

Sticking with Meguiars isnt a bad thing. When I ordered the M80 I realized I should have just ordered the 105/205 combo. I was just hoping M80 had enough cut to do what I needed it to.



I'll look into the Kevin Brown method now I've been hearing that thrown around quite a bit and I think that will definitely help me!



So the kevin brown method you basically put it all over the pad evenly, then go to town? B/c 105 is non diminishing, do I just stop every couple minutes, wipe off, then check progress? I'm assuming after a while, the pad will need to be reprimed, rinse and repeat?



Thanks Accumulator!

In my kits, you get multiple pads so that you don't have to clean/spur the pads while you're in the middle of the detail. Three orange pads (good for medium and fine cut) and two yellow (aggressive) are enough to do the whole car.



I tend to look for natural dividing areas when I am polishing - I do the hood of my M635 in six areas since I have a ridge down the middle that gives me three sections and I work each a half at a time.



For me, the best idea is to start gentle and work to the level of aggressiveness you need. Starting aggressive can lead to...over-correction...

 

[Flashtime]

I tend to look for natural dividing areas when I am polishing - I do the hood of my M635 in six areas since I have a ridge down the middle that gives me three sections and I work each a half at a time.

Can ya post a pic?! (I may pick up an 88 mid month)

 

[Accumulator]

.. I was just hoping M80 had enough cut to do what I needed it to.

IMO people often overestimate how well products like that will work.

I'll look into the Kevin Brown method now I've been hearing that thrown around quite a bit and I think that will definitely help me!

There was a recent post by Kevin Brown that summarized the method quite well. I'd try to find it.

So the kevin brown method you basically put it all over the pad evenly, then go to town?

It's not quite that simple so I'd search for Kevin's explanation.



Priming the pad is very imprtant with *any* method and IMO most people don't do it properly. You want to load the pad evenly and thoroughly, without *over* loading it. You should be able to see the pores in the pad, and they should be filled *to the right degree* with product. This last part is hard to explain but we very clear in Kevin's pics of a black LC pad primed with M205 (try to find that thread too).

B/c 105 is non diminishing, do I just stop every couple minutes, wipe off, then check progress?

Yeah, but it won't take *minutes*. These products work a *lot* faster than stuff like #80. Try 6-8 passes (each pass being one full trip across the area being worked) over a limited area and then inpsect. Inspect the pad for dried polish/cut-off clear frequently and clean/replace the pad as needed.



I like to mist some #34 on the panels before wiping off the M105 to minimize micromarring (from the not-broken-down abrasives).

I'm assuming after a while, the pad will need to be reprimed, rinse and repeat?

I clean mine with #34 and blow them off with compressed air. Without the air compressor I'd squeeze/blot them out very thoroughly with a towel, a method that worked pretty OK for me before I started using the air. Then reprime. Be sure you don't start rushing through the priming as the job progresses

 

[charlesaferg]

my M635.

!!!!!



:2thumbs:

 

[JeffM]

If he cannot get a bottle of 105 easily, isnt the ultimate compound in the same cut range but made for DA or hand use?

 

[Accumulator]

If he cannot get a bottle of 105 easily, isnt the ultimate compound in the same cut range but made for DA or hand use?

As I understand it, the UC actually has quite a bit less cut in actual use (chart ratings notwithstanding). Probably the next best choice though, so yeah, keep it on your short list.

 

[Ants]

Just a small update: I tried to do the KBM but apparently I screwed up. I guess I loaded up the pad too much and when i started it off at 6...i had product flung all over the garage LOL. Taking a look at the pics again, I guess I put way too much product.



I also had the pad disintegrate on me, so I need to dig up that thread that happened to someone else and figure out what was going on. Basically it started tearing all around the part that attaches to the velcro.



BTW, I tested on a 91 miata.. results look good on the single stage paint, however its hard to tell whether the product was dried out or not.

 

[Rcracin]

Plain and simple, even Kevin Brown recommends learning and using conventional methods before using the KB method. It's more than obvious that the conventional methods do work because I know of super professional detailers that do flawless work without the KB method. The KB method is just a technique...not something that's able to do what other methods haven't been able to do. Now with that said....



Look at the videos on youtube of detailing such as Autogeek's videos with their XMT products. M105/205 is great, but I learned with the XMT products because they won't cause the world of damage. The only thing is...use 4" pads for your PC machine. The 6.5" pads won't accomplish what the 4" pads can with the PC. Do everything as per the directions...spread the polish on low speed/speed up and do a few passes up/down, left/right etc, and work the polish in as per the manufacturer's directions and then wipe it off and see what you're left with. You don't have to use the XMT products specifically. 105/205 isn't hard to use but it isn't like the Menzerna polishes or even the XMT polishes. It requires different techniques. You'll learn to polish the way that works for you...not the way people tell you to do it word for word. You don't need to get LC pads. You can use what you have as long as you know the details of what pads you have as you already do since you know that in your case, orange gives more cut that yellow as it's the other way around with LC pads. Find out the brand so people can get feedback from people as to whether the pads are good or not. LC pads aren't the only good pads out there. It's a big circle of information, but the PC videos all over youtube is a great start.

 

[Accumulator]

Just a small update: I tried to do the KBM but apparently I screwed up.. I guess I loaded up the pad too much and when i started it off at 6...i had product flung all over the garage LOL. Taking a look at the pics again, I guess I put way too much product.

Review Kevin's how-to-prime info. That much excess product seems funny to me...did you remember to let the pad sit after priming and then run it on a towel at low speed? Overloading the pad with product messes with all sorts of things.

I also had the pad disintegrate on me, so I need to dig up that thread that happened to someone else and figure out what was going on. Basically it started tearing all around the part that attaches to the velcro.

That's "cookie cutting" and generally means you applied too much pressure for the way your backing plate, the velcro, and the back of the pad all work together. Some plates/pads allow for more applied pressure than others and you have to do what's right for what you're using.

..its hard to tell whether the product was dried out or not

I don't quite follow you there, not sure what could be hard about it...and with any luck you don't really dry out either M105/M205 completely.

 

[imported_paintxpert]

No wonder your confused....What are you trying to correct on this BMW???? If your just trying to protect it wax it by hand in acool place and see how it looks in the Sun later. Bmw has the same hardness in BLACK as it does in WHITE. Again, what is it your trying to correct???? Does it have wheel marks in it? Dont fix whats NOT BROKEN. I have never used the products you describe above. I dont use Meguires products much if @ all. I did give their products a fair shake some 20 years ago. They make a decent product. I only use perhaps 3 different products. Thats why your so confused. You need to SIMPLIFY and cut down on products and pads. BenLeoneDetailer

 

[Accumulator]

No wonder your confused....What are you trying to correct on this BMW????

He said he's trying to remove/improve "deep cuts", i.e, RIDS

If your just trying to protect it wax it by hand in acool place and see how it looks in the Sun later.

He wants to correct the marring before he LSPs it.

Bmw has the same hardness in BLACK as it does in WHITE.

Not necessarily. I know it sounds odd but ask *anybody* here about BMW Jet Black of recent vintage.

Again, what is it your trying to correct???? Does it have wheel marks in it? Dont fix whats NOT BROKEN.

The marring he wants to remove doesn't sound like wheelmarks but rather "deeper than regular swirls" scratches.

I have never used the products you describe above. I dont use Meguires products much if @ all. I did give their products a fair shake some 20 years ago. They make a decent product.

The Meguiar's products that have been recommended to Ants are M105/M205, which are relatively new and behave/perform differently from what Meguiar's offered in the past. They also require different technique, and IMO that different technique is often *easier* for a newbie to get the hang of if only because there's no product breakdown involved.