PC Build Quality

[Jesstzn]

I personally have been unimpressed with some of the "Big 3's" fit and finish of their newer vehicles. Not to mention their choice of interior materials. Hopefully they'll soon take notice of these things and remedy the situation. But I have noticed the Japanese and German companies seem to have stricter tolerances in their production. Is this just me, or has anyone else noticed this?

Dave

I went from a solid Chev owner of over 20 years till the dealer here pi$$ed me of and I bought a Toyota thats when I noticed the fit/finish/quality thing .. I have since moved onto a VW Passat and it is again up another level there regarding fit/finish/materials.

 

[EdLancer]

I went from a solid Chev owner of over 20 years till the dealer here pi$$ed me of and I bought a Toyota thats when I noticed the fit/finish/quality thing .. I have since moved onto a VW Passat and it is again up another level there regarding fit/finish/materials.

Sorry to say, but VW's fit and finish is no where near Toyota's Lexus inspired technology and know how. Toyota is the automotive industries benchmark for quality, it economy Corolla model is compared to a baby Mercedes !, but I do agree the big 3 is still nowhere near the quality level in materials selection and fit and finish of either the Japanese or Germans, just don't get it how over 25 years they still haven't improved a whole lot.

 

[Jesstzn]

Sorry to say, but VW's fit and finish is no where near Toyota's Lexus inspired technology and know how. .

Have you owned both VW and Toyota?

 

[EdLancer]

Have you owned both VW and Toyota?



Yes, I have owned both brands even though I'am an Audi purist VWs are not the same even though the Passat might have the same engine block as the A4, but the similarity ends there. The B5 Passat I owed was a total nightmare, the service adviser at my local dealer will also agree with me as he showed me and asked me as we walked through their garage, he said look around whats on the lifts and sure enough 90% of the cars on the lifts were Passats being serviced. Most automotive journalists will agree that the VW's are antiquiated technology and are overpriced for what they are as compared to Japanese makes of similar cost you get better technology and build quality.

 

[Jesstzn]

Have you owned both VW and Toyota?



Yes, I have owned both brands even though I'am an Audi purist VWs are not the same even though the Passat might have the same engine block as the A4, but the similarity ends there. The B5 Passat I owed was a total nightmare, the service adviser at my local dealer will also agree with me as he showed me and asked me as we walked through their garage, he said look around whats on the lifts and sure enough 90% of the cars on the lifts were Passats being serviced. Most automotive journalists will agree that the VW's are antiquiated technology and are overpriced for what they are as compared to Japanese makes of similar cost you get better technology and build quality.

Most automotive journalists don't build the cars and are easily lobbied.

VW shares the same technology as the Audi that the Audi purists buy and I hate to pop your bubble but you would be astonished at how many parts of the B5.5 have the 4 rings symbol on them including the 4Mo drive train.



I had the pleasure of driving a new 03 A4 Quatro for a week ( More than most journalists ) and at the end of the week and 12 hours of mountain pass highway driving I was pleased to get the GLX back .. The A4 was harsher riding and very noisey and at $8k more .. no where near worth the extra $.



Granted *some* B5's had issues ( vocal minority ) you can't paint every VW after that with the same brush.

 

[SilverLexus]

I just received my PC 7336 and lets just say for a power tool thats Made in USA and costs +$200cdn the build quality is sub standard IMO.

I just bought one from Lowes and I had the opposite opinion. I think the build quality is very good. It feels solid, runs well, seems of decent design, quality power cord, good manual...I really like mine. Pretty good value for $109.

 

[MattZ28]

If I remember corretley that is where we sent the Camaro to get the SS package done.





The Camaro was built in St-Eustache, Quebec and ceased production in 2002. Knowing some Quality Engineers that worked on the project, they would not touch that car if they had to pay for it, quality in their professional opinion "sucks" ...goes to say !

lol. Right. I'm sorry, but what is it you drive? A Mitsubishi Lancer?







'Nuff said.

 

[SilverLexus]

Oh, and I own 2 Nissan vehicles. I personally have been unimpressed with some of the "Big 3's" fit and finish of their newer vehicles. Not to mention their choice of interior materials.

I agree to a point (and I am a big Japanese/German car fan). If you look at car reliability, American brand cars have made real progress. Unfortunately, Japanese and German cars have gotten better too so the quality gap remains.



As much as I like the new Vette the interior is still reaking of cheap plastic. The continual improvement process of Kaizen is a big factor in Japanese reliability.



As far as NAFTA, its a good thing. All brands now emply globally sourced parts and mfg labor. That's good for the US because it allows us to become a service economy which is better in the long run than a mfg economy.

 

[EdLancer]

lol. Right. I'm sorry, but what is it you drive? A Mitsubishi Lancer?



'Nuff said.





What is that suppose to mean ?



You don't know who your dealing with ...buddy ! I think I know a thing or two about quality after being in industry for over 20+ years, maybe you were still in the cradle or worse not even yet !





I agree to a point (and I am a big Japanese/German car fan). If you look at car reliability, American brand cars have made real progress. Unfortunately, Japanese and German cars have gotten better too so the quality gap remains.



Although I enjoy driving American steel because of their larger engines for the highway, I would not actually pay to own their cars, rental is all I would considered when I travel. The big 3s unions are to blame for inflated costs and poor workmanship. Design engineers have to design parts so that a 5 year old can put together, so they can't really get too technical in the parts they design, and from experience GM has second rate engineers to boot, all the good ones left because they can't stand the BS that goes on in there !

 

[JasonD]

This is a very colorful thread you guys have here, and I'm sure I will get flamed a little but I just have to add my .02.



My mother bought a 2000 Mercedes E430 for $58,000 in October of 99'. In 2002, and with only 12,000 miles on the car (that's right, only 12,000) it required a new engine due to very loud tapping noises come from it. Keep in mind, the car was fully maintained by the dealer as required. In late 2002, it required a whole new dashboard due to a faulty gauge cluster, and crack that just "appeared" in the middle of it. In 2003, it required a whole new stereo system because the amplifier developed a short and fried the whole system. Without actually pinpointing the dates, several window motors were replaced, along with a defective fuel pump and sending unit. Early 2004, and at 20,000 miles, the car developed a shimmy at highway speeds over 60mph. The problem could never be found and the car was sold two months ago with 24,000 miles on it.



In Dec. 99' I purchased a 99' Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 4x4 for $41,000 and change. I owned that vehicle for 4 years, used the heck out of it, loved it, and finally sold it in 2003 with just over 50,000 miles on it and NEVER had a single thing break on it, maintenance only.



You do the math.

 

[EdLancer]

This is a very colorful thread you guys have here, and I'm sure I will get flamed a little but I just have to add my .02.



My mother bought a 2000 Mercedes E430 for $58,000 in October of 99'. In 2002, and with only 12,000 miles on the car (that's right, only 12,000) it required a new engine due to very loud tapping noises come from it. Keep in mind, the car was fully maintained by the dealer as required. In late 2002, it required a whole new dashboard due to a faulty gauge cluster, and crack that just "appeared" in the middle of it. In 2003, it required a whole new stereo system because the amplifier developed a short and fried the whole system. Without actually pinpointing the dates, several window motors were replaced, along with a defective fuel pump and sending unit. Early 2004, and at 20,000 miles, the car developed a shimmy at highway speeds over 60mph. The problem could never be found and the car was sold two months ago with 24,000 miles on it.



In Dec. 99' I purchased a 99' Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 4x4 for $41,000 and change. I owned that vehicle for 4 years, used the heck out of it, loved it, and finally sold it in 2003 with just over 50,000 miles on it and NEVER had a single thing break on it, maintenance only.



You do the math.

The Germans are not all that cracked up to be, thats been known to us in the field for a long time, I have seen that happened to BMW 7 series flagship cars too, they are lazy SOBs that don't like to work overtime and work a four day work week. Their design engineers on the hand are the complete opposite, they design parts that are realible and functional to say the least that along with their air tight in house systems is what prevents a majority of bad quality from getting out of their plants. Wonder why a M-B is so expensive ? the average cars goes back 5-6 times to the production line for corrections before its allowed to leave the plant.



Trucks and pick-ups is where the big 3 shine, but still the build quality is not there, have you ever look at the build quality of the Escalade ? the fit and finish of the trims is just horrible for a vehicle of that price range. It is simple to get a reliable engine when it is a 20-30 years old engine block design.



This might be a bit hard for you guys to swallow, but this is the truth:



Germans: lazy work force, good engineering and inhouse quality check systems



Americans: lazy workforce, bad engineering and poor inhouse quality systems



Japaneses: dedicated workforce, good engineering and inhouse quality systems



Americans/Germans(Dailmer-Chrysler): lazy workforce, good engineering and inhouse quality checks.

 

[SilverLexus]

Mercedes is the big exception to the German rule.



Mercedes quality has dropped so badly that they ended at #13 in the last JD Power survey I read.



And what were they thinking of buying Chrysler??? Talk about image problems (drove tons of clients to Lexus I am reliably told-see the sales numbers).



Now Chrysler is becoming the profit engine for them.



I purchased a $14K loaded Pontiac Firebird as my first car when I was detailing cars in FLA in 1986. I took excellent car of the car but was only able to get $3.5K when I sold it just 2 years later (30K miles). At that point I vowed I would never, ever buy American again and I have kept my word. GMC=general mess of crap.



Later I bought a Honda Accord for $13K and kept it spotless and sold it two years later for $12K.



Lesson learned.

 

[Jesstzn]

The Germans are not all that cracked up to be, thats been known to us in the field for a long time,

I'm trying to figure out by your postings what field your in .. corn? .. wheat? You say your an Audi purist but haven't owned one in 7 years and base your VW comments on a fairly new generation release ( 1997) ,which with no matter which manufacturer ther is growing pains, then you sit there and paint ethnic lines with the same brush.



Maybe I should paint one



Quebecers: Self centered, egotisical and usually operate in a state of tunnel vision ( and one of the reasons prices were drivien up in Canada with the insistance that everything be bi-lingual , also one of the reasons we do not have a lot of detailing and other products in Canada )

 

[HotRodGuy]

lol. Right. I'm sorry, but what is it you drive? A Mitsubishi Lancer?



'Nuff said.





What is that suppose to mean ?



You don't know who your dealing with ...buddy ! I think I know a thing or two about quality after being in industry for over 20+ years, maybe you were still in the cradle or worse not even yet !

Yea, but you have to admit, the evo isn't the best in terms of quality itself. Don't get so defensive bubb

 

[HotRodGuy]

This is a very colorful thread you guys have here, and I'm sure I will get flamed a little but I just have to add my .02.



My mother bought a 2000 Mercedes E430 for $58,000 in October of 99'. In 2002, and with only 12,000 miles on the car (that's right, only 12,000) it required a new engine due to very loud tapping noises come from it. Keep in mind, the car was fully maintained by the dealer as required. In late 2002, it required a whole new dashboard due to a faulty gauge cluster, and crack that just "appeared" in the middle of it. In 2003, it required a whole new stereo system because the amplifier developed a short and fried the whole system. Without actually pinpointing the dates, several window motors were replaced, along with a defective fuel pump and sending unit. Early 2004, and at 20,000 miles, the car developed a shimmy at highway speeds over 60mph. The problem could never be found and the car was sold two months ago with 24,000 miles on it.



In Dec. 99' I purchased a 99' Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer 4x4 for $41,000 and change. I owned that vehicle for 4 years, used the heck out of it, loved it, and finally sold it in 2003 with just over 50,000 miles on it and NEVER had a single thing break on it, maintenance only.



You do the math.

All cars have problems, some get lucky, some don't. Hell our Navigator is on it's 4th tranny, my acura is on it's 3rd. My dads 745Li has been in the shop more times then I can count. Only thing that's been somewhat reliable is his vette, and let's not now come to the conclusion that Chevy must be the best manufacturer out there.





Lambos are great cars for example, but go take a look on a lambo board and see all the problems guys are having w/ their brand new cars.

 

[JasonD]

And what were they thinking of buying Chrysler??? Talk about image problems (drove tons of clients to Lexus I am reliably told-see the sales numbers).



Now Chrysler is becoming the profit engine for them.

Actually, I was under the impression that Dailmer Chrysler bought Mercedes??



I don't know what the deal is with those Hondas. They really do hold their value. My brother bought a 2000 Civic Si two years ago and it's still worth the exact amount that he paid for it, and when we were looking at cars for him, you could actually get a brand new Honda cheaper than the used ones due to the fact that they were the same price yet the new ones came with incentives.



In the end, the 2000 Mercedes I was referring to was sold for $20,000 and it was only 4 years old with 24,000 miles on it. :angry It was a very sad day.

 

[EdLancer]

Actually, I was under the impression that Dailmer Chrysler bought Mercedes??



Dailmer-Benz AG is Mercedes-Benz, I think you got it the other way around Dailmer bought the owning amount of shares of Chrysler



I don't know what the deal is with those Hondas. They really do hold their value. My brother bought a 2000 Civic Si two years ago and it's still worth the exact amount that he paid for it, and when we were looking at cars for him, you could actually get a brand new Honda cheaper than the used ones due to the fact that they were the same price yet the new ones came with incentives.



Well, the Hondas themselves are worth as much as any Japanese cars within their same category, but due to high demands at their regional levels, dealers can demand a higher price due to demand and supply, they have botht the reliability and styling to move the cars, although Toyota is just as good a car they lack the styling for the younger crowd and hence lower car sales and sex appeal.

 

[SilverBelle04]

I'm trying to figure out by your postings what field your in .. corn? .. wheat? You say your an Audi purist but haven't owned one in 7 years and base your VW comments on a fairly new generation release ( 1997) ,which with no matter which manufacturer ther is growing pains, then you sit there and paint ethnic lines with the same brush.



Maybe I should paint one



Quebecers: Self centered, egotisical and usually operate in a state of tunnel vision ( and one of the reasons prices were drivien up in Canada with the insistance that everything be bi-lingual , also one of the reasons we do not have a lot of detailing and other products in Canada )

You're going to take a shot at 7 million people (about 1/4 of Canada's population) because of one guys opinion about cars ?

 

[jaybs02]

Well, the Hondas themselves are worth as much as any Japanese cars within their same category, but due to high demands at their regional levels, dealers can demand a higher price due to demand and supply, they have botht the reliability and styling to move the cars, although Toyota is just as good a car they lack the styling for the younger crowd and hence lower car sales and sex appeal.

The value of anything is based upon what someone is willing to pay for it....Thats all



J.D. Power & Assoc. is a marketing firm, not an independent tester. The information that they give are based upon peoples opinions...I am sure that many here could get different opinions on the same car. One owner could say incredible and another would look for the one spot that may have been missed and complain.



I personally have only owned American cars (the Sonata is my wifes car... NOT MINE). I don't buy new cars only used, and I drive them into the ground and have yet to get less than 180K+ miles on all of them. That should say something



{end rant}

 

[Jesstzn]

You're going to take a shot at 7 million people (about 1/4 of Canada's population) because of one guys opinion about cars ?

Your right .. I'm bad .. I shouldn't paint a picture of 1/4 of the population of Canada based on one person taking an opinionated and unsubstantiated shot at 1) the Germans 2) the Americans 3) Japanese. Probably 1/4 of the population of the world, or a good chunk of it anyway.



I appologize.