Paint correction -2k grit

S

solekeeper

New member
Hi guys, so i think im in need of a revamp of supplies.. Some variables..

I work at at a body shop, using a Makita Roatary, sanding with 2k grit (a day after painting)

The problem

After buffing, polishing, my sandscratches are (sometimes) dying back on me. Or i end up having not enough correction. I personally feel for a bodyshop 85-90% is acceptable.


What i`m using

First step, Megs 100 with 3m Wool Pad
Second Megs 100 orange LC FOAM
Third (darker colored cars) white LC foam with HD ADAPT.


So how do i go about fixing this, since SOMETIMES i`m having scratches die back on me, i`m thinking my first step isn`t hitting the sandscratches hard enough. Should I switch my materials? I do like Megs 100, because it`s lack of dust, so if you guys could recommend something with similar cut (or more) and low dust. OR should i switch to a more aggressive wool?
 
solekeeper- Wonder if it`s the paint. Ever since my one painter started with water-based this had been a somewhat frequent problem for me...no prep marks, then a few weeks/months later there`s that die-back and uh-oh...sanding scratches that weren`t there before. Doesn`t happen all the time, but often enough to bug me.

Since you`re knocking it down just a day after painting I wonder if it`s the same thing.

No way you`ll consider finish the sanding with something milder? 3-4K sand out SO easily.

The scratches you`re talking about are the 2K, right? Not anything coarser from the prep work..

And heh heh, when painters return vehicles to *me* at 90% I`m *VERY* displeased. But some folks might not be so picky..Sorry, couldn`t resist poking you with my Picky Customer Stick :D
 
i mean i (could) finish down with something finer, but time is of the essence. I like the 2k because it gives my clear just the texture i need, and isn`t too coarse. good balance.
 
solekeeper said:
Hi guys, so i think im in need of a revamp of supplies.. Some variables..

I work at at a body shop, using a Makita Roatary, sanding with 2k grit (a day after painting)

The problem

After buffing, polishing, my sandscratches are (sometimes) dying back on me. Or i end up having not enough correction. I personally feel for a bodyshop 85-90% is acceptable.


What i`m using

First step, Megs 100 with 3m Wool Pad
Second Megs 100 orange LC FOAM
Third (darker colored cars) white LC foam with HD ADAPT.


So how do i go about fixing this, since SOMETIMES i`m having scratches die back on me, i`m thinking my first step isn`t hitting the sandscratches hard enough. Should I switch my materials? I do like Megs 100, because it`s lack of dust, so if you guys could recommend something with similar cut (or more) and low dust. OR should i switch to a more aggressive wool?
Click to expand...

Dealing with a very similar scenario only I`m finishing at 2500 rather than 2000, but I appreciate you sharing your dilemma soulkeeper

I use M100 on wool as my go-to compound primarily because it`s cheap, but also because it always seems to cut better than other compounds, and the wipe off is a breeze. I use it with a several buff and shine wool pads that I alternate and clean constantly (far more than really necessary) all on my dewalt 849x rotary polisher. Then my second step I use m100 again with my rotary and an orange 6 inch uro-cell b&s pad to remove any heavy holograms left by m100 & wool.

The sanding marks always look removed which is why I always do an IPA wipedown and I look over all of the paint with an LED light before I move to my final polishing step where i use my gg6 along with a maroon b&s uro-tech pad and either HD Polish or Blackfire SRC finishing polish to bring out clarity and gloss.

I have noticed some of the 2500 sanding scratches die-back after just a few weeks which feels like a punch to the gut to see my sanding scratches after thoroughly and meticulously removing them. I just ordered M101 and I`m currently trying Menzerna SHC 300 but it isn`t nearly as user friendly as the beloved fg400 in my experience and doesn`t appear to cut as much as M100. (accumulator, I never work on fresh paint so I`m not sure if that is where the issue is or if we have different issues, but I`m confident if anyone can crack the case wide open it`s you)
 
Solekeeper- I don`t believe your materials are the exact problem. M100 should tackle 2k marks just fine. It could just be fine tuning your process or more passes with more product and cleaned pad. Could be a sanding media problem... well, not problem but maybe better material in that area? Or as Accumulator said... it could be the specific paint system used (lower level, shop line base/clears do some crazy things!). Definitely step up the aggressiveness of the wool pad if you can... I am tending to like the Meg`s burgundy cutting wool a bit better than other high pile wool pads for mark removal and other situations that require it. M105 could be an option as well (and you most likely have used it before)... it seems to cut better than M100 on certain paints (Not many, but some, and I still find this weird) but it`s probably going to be a bit dustier and a little more stubborn in wipe off.

Lashing Stanley has some good points and I agree that M100 cuts better than a lot of the compounds on the market and is priced remarkably. But, I believe it is purely solvent based so... IPA may not be enough to remove the petroleum distillates and a safe solvent may be needed for inspection... but then marring is risked. Stanley`s process appears sound as well... but Solekeeper probably doesn`t have time to do the 3 steps and LED inspection.

So, Solekeeper, if I were you... I would convince shop manager to invest in a Rupes 21 with Meg`s MF pads and M205. Follow your wool/rotary/M100 with the aforementioned combo. Work a section with 205 and don`t wipe off the residue. Spritz water on the polish residue (not heavy or you`ll get sling) and blow out the MF pad with compressed air. Rework the spritzed section and the rotary swirls/ trails will be gone along with further clear/ scratch removal. When you get the hang of it, the process will finish black well enough to make your body shop customers happy. Just make sure to clean that MF pad after every section! (There will be micro marring for sure though... that`s just listed as a disclaimer for the good people who read the forum here at autopia, lol!)

However, even with a Rupes/ 205/ MF that`s not going to guarantee your marks won`t come back but... fresh paint is an interesting thing. It seems to me, even when baked, it`s very unstable and moving around. Even 12 months later.

I have seen some interesting things (some from my own experience but mainly others showing me) that few people would believe and I am sure that same phenomena extends to many body shop folks and detailers as well.
 
It could also be a result of the paint swelling from heat generated while compounding and forcing all those solvents down into the paint.
 
FWIW, I find IPA pretty ineffective for removing polishing oils...just Does. Not. Work. Well. At least not for me, or should I say not compared to dedicated products. I know, I keep posting this over and over... :o

LashingStanley said:
(accumulator, I never work on fresh paint so I`m not sure if that is where the issue is or if we have different issues, but I`m confident if anyone can crack the case wide open it`s you)
Click to expand...

Eh, I can`t help but think that the die-back is related to today`s paint formulations...it used to happen all the time with old-school lacquer, then it was less common with modern b/c (as long as they did everything right), but now it seems common again :(
 
thanks for the replies guys!

dellinger, yes i`ve used m105 before.. but the dust absolutely killed me. I just can`t go back to it. If i wanted to spot buff something, i`d have to wash the entire car again.

what is rupes 21? a compound?

i honestly didn`t know m100 was filled with i guess we can say "fillers"
 
wow, thanks for the insight guys. each one of you brought up possible explanations that never even crossed my mind. Especially about IPA and the solvents in m100. IPA has always seemed effective for me when it comes to removing greases and oils, but if I`m understanding correctly, when it comes to removing solvents from paint that m100 has left behind (especially with the added heat from a rotary)an IPA mixture isn`t going to do much...

My question in response would be are there any heavy compounds like Menzera`s top dogs, or the heavy hitter in 3d`s AAT line that don`t utilize the same solvents found in m100 or if they all utilize a similar solvent, is there a particular prep-sol product that you find particularly effective I can continue using m100?

I really appreciate you guys helping out and sharing your experiences. It seems like the members of the Autogeek forum (though greater in number) do not have the extensive knowledge and experience you guys have. This is one instance I`m thrilled I chose quality over quantity. Thanks again boys
 
You can get more info on the Meguiar`s compounds here. Maybe you can find some more info in this video. M100 comes up at around 18 mins. The Meg`s folks state to use it at low RPM`s. Heat generation gets mentioned as well.

Perhaps adjust your technique a bit and see if you can get it to work for you.


 
Rasky`s comment about heat/ swelling is surely valid.

solekeeper said:
thanks for the replies guys!

what is rupes 21? a compound?

i honestly didn`t know m100 was filled with i guess we can say "fillers"
Click to expand...

Rupes 21 is a D/A polisher and highly doubt your body shop would go for one (even though they seem to be catching on in the collision industry). It would do two things fairly well- Remove the holograms and trails and continue to cut defects and refine (when equipped properly). Following the rotary/ wool, it would be a very good second step for 2K marks when speed and relative quality of finish is needed.

And I believe `fillers` is too strong a word for M100... any product can fill and hide. The solvent/ lubricants are there for an obvious reason, we as professionals just have to understand, to the extent we can, how to best mitigate them or how best to handle or use our selection of compound/ polish for the purpose we intend. So, I wouldn`t ditch M100 just yet if you like the way it handles and cleans up. I think with the information you have received in the thread that you can tinker around the edges to dial your process and arrive at a solution.

LashingStanley said:
wow, thanks for the insight guys. each one of you brought up possible explanations that never even crossed my mind. Especially about IPA and the solvents in m100. IPA has always seemed effective for me when it comes to removing greases and oils, but if I`m understanding correctly, when it comes to removing solvents from paint that m100 has left behind (especially with the added heat from a rotary)an IPA mixture isn`t going to do much...

My question in response would be are there any heavy compounds like Menzera`s top dogs, or the heavy hitter in 3d`s AAT line that don`t utilize the same solvents found in m100 or if they all utilize a similar solvent, is there a particular prep-sol product that you find particularly effective I can continue using m100?

I really appreciate you guys helping out and sharing your experiences. It seems like the members of the Autogeek forum (though greater in number) do not have the extensive knowledge and experience you guys have. This is one instance I`m thrilled I chose quality over quantity. Thanks again boys
Click to expand...

I am assuming here but I wouldn`t think there would be a huge difference in the lubricants used by the various manufacturers in their compounds/ polishes. (If so, please chime in because I would like to know more.) I believe the larger differences are in the abrasive sets though. I am sure you can dig through some online MSDS & PDS for the various companies/ products and find out more info on just what is in there... to a degree of course.

Regarding a panel wipe... I use CarPro Eraser but there are numerous other detail-centric companies whom have their own version of a panel wipe product. And I think 3M has an inspection liquid as well and there are always the safe solvents/ general purpose body solvent/ wax/ grease removers (but I definitely follow those solvents with Eraser or at the very least, IPA).

However, I do agree with IPA not being the `ideal` product, solely on it`s own, in this specific instance for inspection.
 
The Guz said:
You can get more info on the Meguiar`s compounds here. Maybe you can find some more info in this video. M100 comes up at around 18 mins. The Meg`s folks state to use it at low RPM`s. Heat generation gets mentioned as well.

Perhaps adjust your technique a bit and see if you can get it to work for you.


Click to expand...

I always start my dewalt 849x at 600 RPM`s to quickly spread the compound in the area i`m working then I bring it up to 1000 rpms and do one pass followed by 1-2 passes at 1200 RPM`s. Some paint systems I work at 1000 rps if it`s soft and corrects fast and I`ll use heavy pressure for harder PIA paint. I must admit I was working on an old Cadillac with ridiculously hard clear and I found myself bumping up the speed to 1300-1400 rpm`s. I`d love to hear what you guys prefer in terms of Rotary working speed. What`s everyone`s sweet spot?
 
The Meguires Microfiber cutting pads with Meguires D300 microfiber cutting compound works well. I would follow up with Meg`s 205 to finish (on foam).
 
solekeeper said:
what is a good wool pad to cut with? let`s start with that.
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Noting that I haven`t touched my rotaries for years and never will....I hardly ever start with wool, but the last time I used the Edge/Cyclo ones (4"). I`d rather just use MF with M101 for the aggressive work and then finish up with HD Polish.
 
Accumulator, I never use a rotary if I`m not wetsanding. I use a GG6 or MK II 15. But when I`m wet-sanding lacquer with orange peel so bad it`s impossible to see my reflection, Removing sanding marks with a DA, microfiber pads, and a heavy compound on lacquer, for me the residue control is a nightmare and I`m constantly stopping. Plus a rotary is so much easier to use than a DA and has so much less vibration over extended polishing sessions.

But the biggest drawback when using a long throw or an 8mm is hitting emblems, seams, hitting areas with protruding chrome trim, etc. I hardly ever have to tape off because using a rotary I can get extremely close to trim and emblems without actually hitting them (that`s primarily why I follow up the wool compounding step with foam before switch over to the rotary). I can`t imagine how I would remove 100% of sanding marks without a rotary, an extension, and a 2 inch foam pad)

Thank you guys for all the great feedback!!
 
The wool pad that came with the dewalt 849x has a lot of cut, I regulary use lambswool for correcting paint with speed from 1000 to max 1400/500.
When this combination doesnt give me the results I need then I work with the big wool pad that came with my machine, in this case I again try with speed around 1200/400, if in this case the defects like heavy scratches , very hard paind dont want to go away then I get angry. 2000/200 rpm gets the job done(this way I think is not the choice of the polish that does the job but of course higher rpm`s.
Like always we go from least agressive method and going higher.

I would never use hard foam cutting pad with 2000rpm`s but wool pads are forgiving in heating and burning paint.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 
LashingStanley- Heh heh, so I`m not the only guy here who deals with lacquer after all :D (My `85 Jag..)

I hear you on how a RO`s orbit can make for some bumping/etc...I`m just on the other side of the Rotary/RO fence. Not a right/wrong thing IMO, whatever works for somebody :D Fortunately for me, I`m only working on my own stuff so it can take as long as it takes; if that means Xhours per panel, OK.
 
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