Hi! I am not sure if I am sending this message in the right section of this forum, but here goes. The driver side door of my red 2010 Toyota Camry got hit recently. Just got it back from a nationally known body shop where they had to replace the door. I see a noticeable orange peel effect in the repainted areas. It is most visible in the area around the door handle. My question: is an orange peel effect considered acceptable from a professional body shop? If not, will correcting it require a re-paint job? And should the expectation be that no orange peel effect be seen or is some considered acceptable in a body shop job?
Orange peel paint job...what is acceptable?
- Thread starter Boongie
- Start date
GearHead_1
Long Time Member
My opinion here is pretty simple. The area you have had repaired should at the very least match the quality of the finish that exists on the rest of the car. The exception here would be when trying to spot on match a Tri-Coat, Heavy Metallic or Tinted Clear paint. In these instance sometimes you have to swallow twice and say that’s pretty dang close. The texture however should be no worse than what exists on the remainder of the vehicle. The painters determine how much material they need to coat the vehicle adequately. If orange peel is a possibility or is present they should hopefully have made sure they have enough material on the repaired area from the get go to properly level the finish. You should not expect or need to accept anything less than this and yes it may require a repaint. If the body shop is not capable of delivering this type of repair they should make you aware of what to expect before making the repair. In the long run it’s your choice, you are the one that must be satisfied with the repair. You and the shop you choose should have both a meeting of the minds and understanding of what will be accepted by you before the job begins. Anyway... just my .2 cents.
Mike lambert
New member
They didn’t spend enough time finishing the job. Insurance problem, they only pay so much. They can match the texture of they spend time and know how. Do not sign anything or accept the results! Insurance is to put you back in pre accident conditions, not to get it close!
Stokdgs
dansautodetailing.com
Boongie,
I`m not clear - did you just look at your vehicle at the Shop and it was not completed yet ?
If that was the case, perhaps, they still needed to color sand it, remove all the sanding marks with Rotary Power, and then wash it up and get it inspected before it is delivered to you for your Final Inspection..
If indeed it was ready for you when you saw it and said what you posted above, then I totally am in agreement with GearHead_1 and Mike Lambert above..
And of course, if the entire door paint is NOT matching the rest of the side of the car, you should certainly Refuse to accept it until they make it match the rest of the side of the car and then you re-inspect it again and be sure you like it before you sign off on it..
Look inside the door jamb - both sides, the door hinge side next to the fender and the door jamb side where it latches to the vehicle, all those areas need to look the same as the other door, etc..
Remember - YOU are in charge here.. Not them... You can also call your Insurance guy and tell him/her if this is not turning out right..
Good Luck !
Dan F
I`m not clear - did you just look at your vehicle at the Shop and it was not completed yet ?
If that was the case, perhaps, they still needed to color sand it, remove all the sanding marks with Rotary Power, and then wash it up and get it inspected before it is delivered to you for your Final Inspection..
If indeed it was ready for you when you saw it and said what you posted above, then I totally am in agreement with GearHead_1 and Mike Lambert above..
And of course, if the entire door paint is NOT matching the rest of the side of the car, you should certainly Refuse to accept it until they make it match the rest of the side of the car and then you re-inspect it again and be sure you like it before you sign off on it..
Look inside the door jamb - both sides, the door hinge side next to the fender and the door jamb side where it latches to the vehicle, all those areas need to look the same as the other door, etc..
Remember - YOU are in charge here.. Not them... You can also call your Insurance guy and tell him/her if this is not turning out right..
Good Luck !
Dan F
Accumulator
Well-known member
As noted, the new paint`s texture should match the rest of the vehicle, just as the paint`s *color* should. The whole idea is that you shouldn`t be able to tell there was paintwork done, so I wouldn`t settle for less.
The big Q is whether that shop and do the work to an acceptable standard. What did they say about your dissatisfaction? Did you leave the car there? Things might get tricky once you "accept" or at least sign off on, the repair and take it home.
Eh, two reshot panels on my Crown Vic have such terrible orangepeel that those panels look semi-gloss compared to the rest of the car (and they`re obvious panels too), but I bought it that way and have other fish to fry.
The big Q is whether that shop and do the work to an acceptable standard. What did they say about your dissatisfaction? Did you leave the car there? Things might get tricky once you "accept" or at least sign off on, the repair and take it home.
Eh, two reshot panels on my Crown Vic have such terrible orangepeel that those panels look semi-gloss compared to the rest of the car (and they`re obvious panels too), but I bought it that way and have other fish to fry.
To explain a bit more, I got a call from the body shop that the car was ready for pickup. Unfortunately, it was already dark out when I went to pick up the car and could not inspect the work until the next day. That was when I noticed the orange peel. Also, forgot to mention that there are several "dimples" in the repainted door. Sort of like little craters in the paint. I picked up the car on last Friday evening, and they were closed on Saturday. Because of the Christmas holiday, they will not be open again until Tuesday, at which time I will be bringing the car back. The car had been hit by a driver that was insured by a major company. This company agreed that their insured had caused the damage and told me that I could go to any body shop that I preferred. But they have an agreement with a large national body shop that provides a "lifetime guarantee" on the work. I had used this body shop several years ago to refinish a bumper on another car and that work had turned out to be satisfactory. So I decided to use them again.
Am I correct that in order to remove the orange peel and the dimples mentioned above that the body shop will need to essentially sand off the clear coat and the paint and start over from bare metal?
Am I correct that in order to remove the orange peel and the dimples mentioned above that the body shop will need to essentially sand off the clear coat and the paint and start over from bare metal?
Dan
Well-known member
This just reminds me of how important it is to set your expectations with the body shop manger before the work actually starts. Saves everyone grief. I do it with everyone that touches my car.
OP, hope you get it sorted out. Lean on the insurance company if things don`t go well.
OP, hope you get it sorted out. Lean on the insurance company if things don`t go well.
Not necessarily. Depending on how much clear is on it they could simply wet sand it then polish it.
ks
DaveT435
Member
This is so true. The couple times I`ve needed work done I informed them of my detailing and paint correction knowledge and ability and asked them if they were going to be able to match texture and color. In both cases the paint was very close to perfect. I try and stay away from large chain body shops. They are all about turnover and not so much about quality. Independent body shops know they need word of mouth advertising to be successful. My mother took her car to Service King, which is a big chain in this area, and the texture wasn`t even close.
Accumulator
Well-known member
Boongie- I trust you`ve learned all the belated lessons about setting expectations, gathering information before the work, and when/how to *not* pick up a vehicle after paintwork. No matter *what*, some of the rules for this stuff are simply inviolate even when it causes huge hassles.
No, it should not require a complete bare-metal redo, but even if it does that`s *THEIR* problem. They botched the work and must make it right or refund/etc. so you can start over (they`ll prefer to fix it).
Think this analogy: you go to pick up an suit at the tailor`s shop- one pants leg is way too long and the coat is missing button holes....you wouldn`t put that suit on, pay them, and walk out the door wearing it like that, would you?!? You`d complain and make them fix it before you even tried it on again. Treat the paint/body work the same way.
If they DO wetsand/polish the orangepeel away, make sure to find out how much clear is left afterwards. I`d worry that they`ll take off so much leveling it that you`ll lose the upper whatever-% that provides the UV protection and will thus potentially be vulnerable to premature failure. Get ETG readings from `em along with their clearly expressed explanation (get both before they fix it, get ETG readings from *after* they`ve fixed it too). Yeah, big hassle...but they really messed up.
No, it should not require a complete bare-metal redo, but even if it does that`s *THEIR* problem. They botched the work and must make it right or refund/etc. so you can start over (they`ll prefer to fix it).
Think this analogy: you go to pick up an suit at the tailor`s shop- one pants leg is way too long and the coat is missing button holes....you wouldn`t put that suit on, pay them, and walk out the door wearing it like that, would you?!? You`d complain and make them fix it before you even tried it on again. Treat the paint/body work the same way.
If they DO wetsand/polish the orangepeel away, make sure to find out how much clear is left afterwards. I`d worry that they`ll take off so much leveling it that you`ll lose the upper whatever-% that provides the UV protection and will thus potentially be vulnerable to premature failure. Get ETG readings from `em along with their clearly expressed explanation (get both before they fix it, get ETG readings from *after* they`ve fixed it too). Yeah, big hassle...but they really messed up.
Never Enuff
New member
IMHO orange peel and your "small craters" are a direct result of a painter that either doesn`t know what they are doing or is just in to much of a hurry. Orange peel is caused by one or a number of problems such as --air pressure, paint put on to heavy etc. The craters are sometimes called "fish eyes" and can be cured by adding a fish eye preventer in the paint. My suggestion is to take it back and give them another opportunity to do the job correctly. Note--I am by no means an expert painter, but this is really unacceptable to let a car leave a shop like this when it can be easily prevented.
Jay
Jay
I`m not an expert but my experience comes from my first paint job a few months ago when I painted my hood with a clear/base process. With this said the color goes on thinner and lighter. It`s simply there to create the color and may not even have much of a shine. The clear is sprayed over the color and add the thickness and protection.
As far as where is the texture coming from my guess is that it could be either the primer under the color or the color or in the clear. Each layer will have a texture and it could be the primer b/c we don`t know if they block sanded it before add the color on top. The fish eyes are "probably" in the clear but could be in any layer but it depends on how they prepped each layer of paint. I put two coats of color on and it had some texture but it goes on very thin b/c it`s designed to be thinned with reducer. I put two good coats of clear on my hood but I don`t add a reducer to the clear I shoot it right out of the can so it`s a lot thicker. After the clear I had several fish eyes in the clear but I was able to block sand them with 1000 grit then 2500 grit and all the flaws were 100% removed. If the fish eyes are deep they can be filled with a dab of clear then sanded/polished after dry and you`ll probably never see it.
Here`s a pic of the hood right after painting the clear and if you look in the reflection you can see some of the fish eyes and dirt that was in the clear.
ks
As far as where is the texture coming from my guess is that it could be either the primer under the color or the color or in the clear. Each layer will have a texture and it could be the primer b/c we don`t know if they block sanded it before add the color on top. The fish eyes are "probably" in the clear but could be in any layer but it depends on how they prepped each layer of paint. I put two coats of color on and it had some texture but it goes on very thin b/c it`s designed to be thinned with reducer. I put two good coats of clear on my hood but I don`t add a reducer to the clear I shoot it right out of the can so it`s a lot thicker. After the clear I had several fish eyes in the clear but I was able to block sand them with 1000 grit then 2500 grit and all the flaws were 100% removed. If the fish eyes are deep they can be filled with a dab of clear then sanded/polished after dry and you`ll probably never see it.
Here`s a pic of the hood right after painting the clear and if you look in the reflection you can see some of the fish eyes and dirt that was in the clear.
ks
Accumulator
Well-known member
Boongie- If it has clearly visible fisheyes they totally [screwed] up. Between those and how the orangepeel doesn`t match the oe paint....that`s simply not professional-caliber work (it`s the kind of work that non-experts like KEVINS or I would do while still learning the ropes). I wonder what their explanation will be and whether they (meaning their current employees using their current stuff) can do this job properly or not. I`d be skeptical, like...what, did they let some apprentice do his first work on your car?!? And if so, why?
None of the ETGs I`ve used could differentiate between the layers. A *good* painter oughta be able to extrapolate how much clear is on there (because he`ll know/remember what he did) but I doubt that`s the kind of painter you`re dealing with since you have these problems in the first place.
Wonder what Autopian Xtremekustomz would say oughta be done...he`s kinda our resident paint/body expert.
None of the ETGs I`ve used could differentiate between the layers. A *good* painter oughta be able to extrapolate how much clear is on there (because he`ll know/remember what he did) but I doubt that`s the kind of painter you`re dealing with since you have these problems in the first place.
Wonder what Autopian Xtremekustomz would say oughta be done...he`s kinda our resident paint/body expert.
Stokdgs
dansautodetailing.com
In my experience Auto Painting, Fisheyes come from not having a perfectly clean surface, and not using the Fisheye preventer..
I am glad they are going to try to make this better.. I bet they will just sand it all down past all the defects, clean it up better this time, and reapply, minding how much product vs air is being sprayed..
Back in those days, all we had to clean the work with was a couple of different solvents, Prep-Sol and Enamel Reducer (if spraying acrylic lacquer), and then a good Tack Cloth to carefully go over the entire surface in the Booth right before spraying the paint..
If you accidently even touched the paintwork with even your fingertips, there was the chance that that spot/s would Fisheye on you, so you could never touch the vehicle with your bare hands - ever - once you started the clean process...
The Total Paint Thickness meter is just that - it will measure in mils, or microns, the Total thickness of what is on that spot it is placed on only..
Only the most expensive Meters, the DeFelsko - around $3,000, will give you a look at the individual layers of material, you have to determine what those layers could be, and if you don`t know the history of the paintjob, it will always be just a guess..
All I use my Meter for is to measure the Total Thickness in Microns, and then correct the spot, and determine how much of a Micron I removed to correct that spot, taking into account how much the Client is spending on this phase of the Detail..
Typically, I try to never remove more than 1/2 a Micron if at all possible..
Yes, one can take All the defects out of paintwork and perhaps remove a lot of the Clearcoat, and the next week the Client will get it all scratched up again..
Now, what do you do ????
Dan F
I am glad they are going to try to make this better.. I bet they will just sand it all down past all the defects, clean it up better this time, and reapply, minding how much product vs air is being sprayed..
Back in those days, all we had to clean the work with was a couple of different solvents, Prep-Sol and Enamel Reducer (if spraying acrylic lacquer), and then a good Tack Cloth to carefully go over the entire surface in the Booth right before spraying the paint..
If you accidently even touched the paintwork with even your fingertips, there was the chance that that spot/s would Fisheye on you, so you could never touch the vehicle with your bare hands - ever - once you started the clean process...
The Total Paint Thickness meter is just that - it will measure in mils, or microns, the Total thickness of what is on that spot it is placed on only..
Only the most expensive Meters, the DeFelsko - around $3,000, will give you a look at the individual layers of material, you have to determine what those layers could be, and if you don`t know the history of the paintjob, it will always be just a guess..
All I use my Meter for is to measure the Total Thickness in Microns, and then correct the spot, and determine how much of a Micron I removed to correct that spot, taking into account how much the Client is spending on this phase of the Detail..
Typically, I try to never remove more than 1/2 a Micron if at all possible..
Yes, one can take All the defects out of paintwork and perhaps remove a lot of the Clearcoat, and the next week the Client will get it all scratched up again..
Now, what do you do ????
Dan F
Accumulator
Well-known member
Boongie- It sounds like you`re on top of this, hope it turns out well.
Stokdgs- Yeah, everything you said. Especially that part about thinning clear that`s only gonna get promptly marred up again.
One Q though..."half a MICRON" or "half a MIL"? Heh heh, half a micron isn`t much even by my standards! Half a micron is nudging up against Ford`s recommendation, but they`re talking oe paint and repaints often have thicker clear (well, maybe..hopefully).
Stokdgs- Yeah, everything you said. Especially that part about thinning clear that`s only gonna get promptly marred up again.
One Q though..."half a MICRON" or "half a MIL"? Heh heh, half a micron isn`t much even by my standards! Half a micron is nudging up against Ford`s recommendation, but they`re talking oe paint and repaints often have thicker clear (well, maybe..hopefully).
Mike lambert
New member
Half a mil is over the life of the car to maintain integrity. Meaning UV protection. That is an industry standard, but what do you do when total paint is 2.5 mild on some of the newer Asian cars I’ve seen? The guys that say they get all the defects out no matter what, in my opinion are living on the edge and I hope they have good insurance!
Stokdgs
dansautodetailing.com
Mi Hermano, El Accumulador,
I only measure in Microns, especially on Factory Paint - I want to know the least amount of clear coat removed rather than a bigger amount of clear coat removed when measuring in Mils..
And I don`t like to do the math each time - 1 Mil = 25.4 Microns, so I always measure in Microns..
Yes, I try to keep corrections to the absolute bare minimum removed, on Factory Paint again (to protect the integrity of the paintwork and my reputation), based on the Client`s wishes and amount paid for this work..
For Repaints, in my experiences, before and after acquiring a Total Thickness Meter, there is always a lot of something on that panel, etc...
Now, of course, I don`t know if its a lot of bondo/filler, extra Primer and then perhaps a Sealer over that, and Then the Color and Clearcoat, but there is always a thicker layer of all those things there..
And having painted before, I always, and all the Painters I knew always, put a lot of paint and thinned down paint and clearcoat on the panel/s so that there would never be a problem from the wet color sanding to the compounding stages..
Dan F