Orange Peal on new cars?
- Thread starter mikeg
- Start date
Not sure about elsewhere but was told in California by a independent auto painter that the OP was due to the new environmentaly safe paint guns. He said that most independents have both kinds of guns. The new environment safe guns for when air quality guys show up and the old style guns when they actually paint. Maybe the auto makers and larger chain type paint shops have to play by the rules coming from corporate heirarchy, while the smaller independents can duck, hide and slide through the loop holes.
TBone
TBone
Andre'
New member
JohnN and TBone are correct. The low solvent paints don't have enough time to flow together and fourm a smooth surface.
Their two types of paint guns that body shops use, HVLP-High volume low pressure, and High pressure guns. Pressure feed guns are not commonly used in small shops. The high pressure guns atomizes paint much better than an HVLP gun, this makes the paint even and with little OP, They do however cause large amounts of over spray, and use more paint than HVLP guns. HVLP guns causes much less overspray but much more OP, this is becaus the paint is not atomized as fine. Less overspray = an environmently safe tool.
Their two types of paint guns that body shops use, HVLP-High volume low pressure, and High pressure guns. Pressure feed guns are not commonly used in small shops. The high pressure guns atomizes paint much better than an HVLP gun, this makes the paint even and with little OP, They do however cause large amounts of over spray, and use more paint than HVLP guns. HVLP guns causes much less overspray but much more OP, this is becaus the paint is not atomized as fine. Less overspray = an environmently safe tool.
My experience with Lexus is that they generally have excellent paint. I've had 4 (SC400, LS400, GS400, SC430) all in black and the SC430 is the best I so far.. flawless and the paint is applied in such a way that it appears to nearly run right at the edges.. kind of a nice little bead.
Very nice..
Very nice..
ISLANDSBEST
New member
The paint on my LS430 is very nice, but it does have mild op.
<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by JohnN [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Stop by your dealer, Gene - you're in for an unpleasant surprise.
Most of these regulations are taking effect last year, this year and next year. You'll see a tremendous difference in MYs from 99 to 02. [/b][/QUOTE
Actually, I just go as far as my garageI'm not saying they all are prefect, but my luck has been good with the Lexus line.
imported_Blake
New member
The environmental regulations, High Volume Low Pressure paint systems, and low solvent or water based paints will all cause orange peel in varying degrees. Paint surfaces have suffered recently because the paint will not flow like it used to in the "good old days". Domestic auto manufacturers are caught up in this problem and Europe and Japan will also have to reduce solvent levels. Paint manufacturers may very well develop better paints now that their hands are forced.
The cause of orange peel as I have always understood it to be, was the thickness of the clearcoat - too much clear. Anyone want to comment on that idea?
I'm not convinced that the model year of a vehicle has too much to do with the orange peel issue. My car is 9 years old and the top half of the car has a good amount of "factory installed" orange peel - they all did. I've considered having it removed, but was advised against it, as it is seen as "over restoration" in the eyes of purists. .
I'm not convinced that the model year of a vehicle has too much to do with the orange peel issue. My car is 9 years old and the top half of the car has a good amount of "factory installed" orange peel - they all did. I've considered having it removed, but was advised against it, as it is seen as "over restoration" in the eyes of purists. .
Well, I'll tell you guys what I saw:
Summarizing from my test drive notes:
BMW X5 - orange peel - more noticeable on rear quarterpanel.
Acura MDX - orange peel - pretty bad, all over vehicle and even bumpers - worse than X5.
Lexus RX300 - orange peel - noticeable on rear quarterpanels and front fenders. (at this point - I noted that I was seeing a trend - RX300 was the third of 4 cars I tested).
Mercedes Benz ML320 - orange peel - noticeable on rear quarterpanels and rear gate.
You might think I'm nuts - but I saw 2000's, 2001's, and 2002's in that grand search for an SUV. And I'm sure of what I saw - as the model years progressed, OP got worse. Especially in the case of North American vehicles.
At first I thought it was something inherent to SUVs so I asked around, and got the response I posted above. As Blake mentioned, these regulations are not done taking effect all over the world, so you'll see some difference between domestic and foreign makes for awhile, until all are playing by the same rules. But we had all better get used to OP, because it's gonna be around for a loooong time.
Summarizing from my test drive notes:
BMW X5 - orange peel - more noticeable on rear quarterpanel.
Acura MDX - orange peel - pretty bad, all over vehicle and even bumpers - worse than X5.
Lexus RX300 - orange peel - noticeable on rear quarterpanels and front fenders. (at this point - I noted that I was seeing a trend - RX300 was the third of 4 cars I tested).
Mercedes Benz ML320 - orange peel - noticeable on rear quarterpanels and rear gate.
You might think I'm nuts - but I saw 2000's, 2001's, and 2002's in that grand search for an SUV. And I'm sure of what I saw - as the model years progressed, OP got worse. Especially in the case of North American vehicles.
At first I thought it was something inherent to SUVs so I asked around, and got the response I posted above. As Blake mentioned, these regulations are not done taking effect all over the world, so you'll see some difference between domestic and foreign makes for awhile, until all are playing by the same rules. But we had all better get used to OP, because it's gonna be around for a loooong time.
Dave N
My PC goes to 7...
While I'm not glad that anyone else has op, it does make me feel a little better about my truck. I posted a while back that my 2001 Toyota Tacoma has op all over. I thought that maybe Toyota just skimped on the paint since it's a truck, but after reading all of these posts about op on high-end models, it looks like op is ubiquitous in the car world...
CJ from Granite Bay CA
New member
Interesting article on orange peel. Thought I would just pass it along.
Dan Stauft was a Paint Process Engineer at the Corvette manufacturing facility in Bowling Green, Kentucky back in October of 1995. At that time, he was a member of the ZR-1 Net - an online group of Corvette enthusiasts dedicated to the 1990 - 1995 ZR-1 Corvettes. A common complaint from many of the members was the amount of "orange peel" present in the 1984 - 1995 Corvette as compared to competitive European models. Dan was kind enough to offer the following explanation and we would like to thank him for his time in putting this response together:
The majority of Corvette complaints that I am aware of concern excessive Orange Peel relative to other manufacturers (i.e.) Lexus, Mazda, Porsche...). I would like to explain some of the causes of orange peel and a reason that US cars seem to have this problem more often than the other manufacturers. Orange peel is the result of an applied coat of paint (basecoat, clearcoat, or both) that doesn't flow out or level fully. Keeping in mind that paint is basically applied as a liquified plastic, the cause of peel is that the paint either doesn't stay liquid long enough to completely flow or the material is to viscous to allow it to flow out. In either case, the paint ceases to flow before the surface is completely level. The result of this is a lumpy orlopey surface that resembles the peel of an orange, hence "orange peel. So, to eliminiate this problem, you lower the viscosity or simply keep the paint liquid longer, right? This may not be a s easy as it seems. Solvent-borne paints are categorized by the ratio of paint solids (resins, pigments, binders, etc.) to liquids (solvents).
In the US, manufacturers are required to use high solids paints, with a ratio of about 60% solids to 40% solvent. To better flow the paint out, we need to add more solvent. The problem is that the EPA won't let us add aditional solvents. These solvent restrictins stem from the EPA's limits on Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). VOCs, which are in almost all solvents, are a cause of low level ozone - read smog - forcing these restrictions. In other countries, these restrictions either don't exist or are more lenient, allowing manufacturers to use low solids paints (as low as 30% solids to 70% solvent), which tend to have a smoother appearance. To combat the US handicap generated partially by EPA restrictions, paint companies are developing new technologies.
Waterborne paints, for example, are essentially low solids paints (up to 60% solvent), but they are legal because de-ionized water (not VOC) is a large part of the solvent package. In addition to the low solids aspect, waterborne paints have many other neat properties that help improve the performance and appearance.
As the new technology paints and application methods are implemented (within the next year or so for Corvette, US manufacturers will have the ability to level the appearance playing field between themselves and the international competition.
Dan Stauft
Paint Process Engineer
GM Bowling Green Assembly
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/paint.html
Dan Stauft was a Paint Process Engineer at the Corvette manufacturing facility in Bowling Green, Kentucky back in October of 1995. At that time, he was a member of the ZR-1 Net - an online group of Corvette enthusiasts dedicated to the 1990 - 1995 ZR-1 Corvettes. A common complaint from many of the members was the amount of "orange peel" present in the 1984 - 1995 Corvette as compared to competitive European models. Dan was kind enough to offer the following explanation and we would like to thank him for his time in putting this response together:
The majority of Corvette complaints that I am aware of concern excessive Orange Peel relative to other manufacturers (i.e.) Lexus, Mazda, Porsche...). I would like to explain some of the causes of orange peel and a reason that US cars seem to have this problem more often than the other manufacturers. Orange peel is the result of an applied coat of paint (basecoat, clearcoat, or both) that doesn't flow out or level fully. Keeping in mind that paint is basically applied as a liquified plastic, the cause of peel is that the paint either doesn't stay liquid long enough to completely flow or the material is to viscous to allow it to flow out. In either case, the paint ceases to flow before the surface is completely level. The result of this is a lumpy orlopey surface that resembles the peel of an orange, hence "orange peel. So, to eliminiate this problem, you lower the viscosity or simply keep the paint liquid longer, right? This may not be a s easy as it seems. Solvent-borne paints are categorized by the ratio of paint solids (resins, pigments, binders, etc.) to liquids (solvents).
In the US, manufacturers are required to use high solids paints, with a ratio of about 60% solids to 40% solvent. To better flow the paint out, we need to add more solvent. The problem is that the EPA won't let us add aditional solvents. These solvent restrictins stem from the EPA's limits on Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). VOCs, which are in almost all solvents, are a cause of low level ozone - read smog - forcing these restrictions. In other countries, these restrictions either don't exist or are more lenient, allowing manufacturers to use low solids paints (as low as 30% solids to 70% solvent), which tend to have a smoother appearance. To combat the US handicap generated partially by EPA restrictions, paint companies are developing new technologies.
Waterborne paints, for example, are essentially low solids paints (up to 60% solvent), but they are legal because de-ionized water (not VOC) is a large part of the solvent package. In addition to the low solids aspect, waterborne paints have many other neat properties that help improve the performance and appearance.
As the new technology paints and application methods are implemented (within the next year or so for Corvette, US manufacturers will have the ability to level the appearance playing field between themselves and the international competition.
Dan Stauft
Paint Process Engineer
GM Bowling Green Assembly
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/paint.html
When I look closely at my car I realize that the worst orangepeel is on the doors. The fenders and hood are pretty good but the doors don't even look like they were painted at the same time or place as the rest of the car. Maybe someday, if I continue down this compulsive path, I'll pay for a top quality paint job that has been painstakingly wet sanded smooth like a baby's butt.