Obamacare, Fast and Furious, and other unconstitutional illegalities.

[Paul Sparks]

Not having much of a formal education I do have a couple of questions about socialized medicine. Why do most countries that offer it have a waiting list for specialized procedures ? If their system is superior to ours then why are so many coming here for treatment ? If this plan is to be as advertised then why is Congress and thousands of other groups being exempted from its coverage.Seems to me that instead of fixing what we have we are throwing out the baby with the bath water so to say. Looking at other government run programs such as social security,the VA and IRS, I'm not looking forward to someone on a panel deciding if I'm too old for the program to pay for a procedure to prolong my existence. I do remember a talk from our leader that suggested that maybe some would be better off with a pill instead of costly treatment. I personally would like to be the one that makes that decision.

 

[White_Falcon]

I think, just like the rest of this country, half of the users here will like it, and half will hate it.



I'm undecided - I lived may a years in Canada, and their health system, having issues and all, is much more balanced then ours. Overall, I liked it, but it does have it's issues. The Affordable Care Act is not that system. I will have to see how things turn out with the ACA in 2014, but it can't be any less balanced then the system we have now. When I say balanced, I mean the rich get the best, the middle class gets the scrapes, and suck it if your poor. I think Obama care fell short, but hey, we needed to try something new, and anything is better then what we currently have.



Ask me again in 2015 when the act has been up and running for a full year, and I'll give you an informed, educated opinion then. Until then, all any of us are doing is guessing and repeating politico's talking points.

 

[jfelbab]

There is a possibility that Obamacare could be repealed before it ever takes effect. Once the low and middle class people realize that they have to pay for this, it may to sway their vote. Yes, this IS the largest tax increase on the American public in the history of our country. Right now they think this is going to be an Obama freebie. Wait until the folks on Medicare realize that their medical care has just been gutted to pay for half of this. Find one government program that is not rife with waste and fraud, go ahead I'll wait, just name one. The only government agency that operates reasonably well is the military and it is rife with waste too. Medicare is broke, Social Security is broke, the post office is broke, our government is broke, cities and states are broke, school districts are broke and last but not least, WE ARE BROKE. TIme for everyone to stop sniffing the Obama glue and wake up. We are in serious financial trouble folks. You can cling to the "Tax the Rich Guy" mantra only so long until you realize that even if you took 100% of their income you won't make a scratch in our huge debt. We are screwing our children's future here and if this doesn't disturb you then you deserve to get what comes. Look your son, daughter or grandchild in the eye and tell them that you decided to screw their future for your benefit.

 

[imported_WhyteWizard]

Mike,



Do you remember when the Democrats wanted to let the Bush tax cuts expire on incomes above 250k but keep them for incomes below that amount? Do you think we'd be talking about middle class tax increases at all if the tax rates were more similar to what they were when Reagan took office?



If you seriously consider that we pay more for healthcare per person than any other country where they have universal coverage why aren't you asking where all that extra money is going?





Paul,



There are about 45,000 people who die every year in this country because they put off going to the Doctor for too long because they don't have healthcare. Then, there are those who go to the Doctor but then can't afford to fill the prescription.



There's no long wait for expensive procedures for those who can afford them or have coverage but there are lots of people who know there's no point in getting in line for something they know they can't afford.



Robert

 

[imported_WhyteWizard]

Jim,



We're only broke because we can't get any decent tax increases on people above 250K past the Republican congress or the Republicans in the Senate. Keynes was right about how to fix a depression and so is Paul Krugman.



I never heard one word from people for 8 years of Bush, particularly for the first 6 years when he had both houses of congress. When the Hastert rule was in effect, the rule that said, no bill will even get a vote in the house unless a majority of Republicans are for it, there wasn't a word about deficits. Wars paid for by supplemental appropriations to keep them out of the official budget and we got not a word. If Obama's election has done anything it sure has gotten people talking.



Robert

 

[jfelbab]

I disagree Robert, it's not that we are not taxing enough, rich or not, the problem is that our government, both Democrat and Republician, are spending too much. There is not enough money in any tax scenario to pay off our massive debt. The only way to pay for all the excess is to have our future generations pay for it. Today our government borrows 43 cents for every dollar they spend. I see only two ways out, first a balanced budget amendment and second print money. Likely the second will prevail. Picture a future where your money is worth 50-60% of what it is worth today. That, I'm confident, is coming in our lifetimes. Think about taxing those folks who earn over $100,000 and in essence that will be the new $50,000 bracket in today's terms.



Adding to the problem is that without a balanced budget amendment, these Washington dopes will keep spending more than they take in. The more you give them the more they spend. Look at the last two administrations for proof of this.



We need to take back our checkbook and demand fiscal responsibility. Since our elected officials found that they can write unlimited checks from our account we have seen our debt explode exponentially. This will not end well unless we stop this trend.



Examine these graphics for a moment:

Source: Guess Who Really Pays the Taxes — The American Magazine



(This is quite a balanced and accurate read on taxes, BTW.)



Here is a more current chart:

And here is how various administrations fared:

The problem is not that we are not taxing the rich enough, it is that we are spending way beyond our ability to pay. Since the Federal government can't tax us at 100%, they will print money to pay their debts, which devalues our currency. They must pay their debts eventually and this is virtually their only workable method remaining.



Explore further some possible consequences of this tax the rich plan. When you make the wealthy poor who will fund the health care program, Medicare, Social Security, education, welfare, military, etc? Who are our largest debt holders? What do you think they will do when we default or devalue our currency? Do you see any possible unrest in the US as a result? The poor will get poorer and the rich will get poorer under the tax the rich plan. Capitalism will wither and die on the vine and with it the US we know. It will most likely be replaced by some form of Socialism in the short term. There will be massive poverty. One only need look at history to see where Socialism has worked its magic to realize that it doesn't work at all. We all like to dream about a world where no one worries about money, jobs or health but there is no such dream world. The closest we have come to it is in the USA. We still have the highest standard of living in the world. This occurred because of Capitalism. It also came about due to us following our constitution and being responsible for our debts. Sadly, we are doing neither today.

 

[MSOsr]

WhyteWizard: We pay more for healthcare because we get instant access to the latest and best available medical technology there is. We also reward, under the capitalist system, doctors who spent decades going to school while deferring their wage-earning years. Would you run up $300,000 in debt to make say, $65,000 a year, ten years down the road? I sure wouldn't.....



And everyone knows that if you raise tax rates, revenues GO DOWN. This is especially true when you raise taxes on sophisticated business people. You can't assume that economic activity would stay the same with the rates raised; it just never happens that way. History has shown that reducing tax rates increases revenue to the federal government.



Our problem is spending.



Mike

 

[jfelbab]

Another tidbit. There are around 140 million taxpayers in the US. Here is another current (2010) chart which shows just how foolish it is to think you can tax the rich to solve the spending problem



How Much Money Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage? | Financial Samurai

The top 1%: earn on average $380,354. There are around 1.4 million who fall into this group.

The top 5%: earn on average $159,619. There are about 7 million in this group.



If you were to take all the income of those in the top 5% it would not pay off our massive debt. Of course you could only take it once since they would then be poor and you would have to find another source to fund the excess spending.



Top 1% total US earnings $532,495,600,000. Call it 533 Billion.

Top 5% total US earnings is $1,117,333,000,000. Call it 1.1 Trillion

Our debt is now around $15.8 Trillion U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time



Also of some interest in the chart is how equitable the tax burden is shared.



The top 1% of earners pay 38% of all the taxes

The top 5% of earners pay 59% of all the taxes

The top 10% of earners pay 70% of all the taxes

The top 25% of earners pay 86% of all the taxes

The top 50% of earners pay 97% of all the taxes

The bottom 50% of earners pay 3% of all the taxes

 

[spotter]

One of (if not the very biggest reason) our healthcare costs are so high is the liability insurance needed for providers. The judgements paid on many claims is making it prohibitive to do business and if revenues are capped then even more doctors and providers will not be able to break even, much less earn a living. Liability insurance for these doctors and providers has been increasing at rates of 20-30% a year over the last decade for many....how do you think this will work out under Obamacare. Reducing these outrageous settlements and/or capping them would be an easy way to reduce healthcare costs but I haven't seen much rhetoric on this topic.



These costs have to be passed on to remain a viable going concern. However, they have zero to do with providing patient care and distort the amount of health care dollars spent compared to the "direct" cost of health care.

 

[DaGonz]

The principles of the Constitution are history as long as the American voter can be bought with entitlements.....

or swayed by negative ads by SUPERPACS...

 

[DaGonz]

The health care crisis didn't really start until the FTC allowed the lawyers to advertise. Ambulance chasers promise to get you money, health insurance companies would rather settle than drag their names through the mud of the courts, health insurance companies raise premiums to cover the expense, and the sprial continues.



Ironically, ObabmaCare is a carbon copy of Romneycare, who the present GOP frontrunner claimed to be a success when he was Governor of Massachusetts, now he is running it from away from it.. it is his typical flip flop modus operandi.



PS: he called the cost of not having health insurance a "penalty"... SCOTUS ruled it to be a tax, yet POTUS is being blamed for a tax increase.

Election year hijinks?



Posted by OutlawTitan

Reducing these outrageous settlements and/or capping them would be an easy way to reduce healthcare costs but I haven't seen much rhetoric on this topic.

Seeing that most members of Congress are or were lawyers, do you really think they would be willing to cap settlement amounts? it would cut into their pay shoould they decide to leave office or lose a re-election bid.

 

[autoconcierge]

WhyteWizard: We pay more for healthcare because we get instant access to the latest and best available medical technology there is. We also reward, under the capitalist system, doctors who spent decades going to school while deferring their wage-earning years. Would you run up $300,000 in debt to make say, $65,000 a year, ten years down the road? I sure wouldn't.....



And everyone knows that if you raise tax rates, revenues GO DOWN. This is especially true when you raise taxes on sophisticated business people. You can't assume that economic activity would stay the same with the rates raised; it just never happens that way. History has shown that reducing tax rates increases revenue to the federal government.



Our problem is spending.



Mike

I love the bargraphs, and even the drawn out explanations on either side of this issue. The above post wraps it up simply.............no yelling, flaming, go/no go..................just common sense applied to those that do not have the ability to see things the way it really is.



History is just that...........................a written documented account of what/not to do based upon the effects of choices made by those that can effect policy for the citizens of this country, example........................touching a Hot stove results in a burned body part to a degree on how long you touch the stove, my question is why touch the stove when you know you will get burned??.....................answer because you a liberal who knows better but cannot make the right choice..............but instead of that individual getting burned we all do.

 

[jfelbab]

Let me get this straight . . . ... We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?'

 

[Scottwax]

Let me get this straight regarding health care. We can't afford doctors, medicine and insurance, but we can afford doctors, medicine, insurance and a huge, bloated government bureaucracy to run it?

 

[CAdetailer]

Ok we got 90 days until it time to tell Obama to hit the bricks and implement some fiscal responsibility in both houses.



Encourage everybody you know to get off their A$$ and out there an vote if they want to save this country.



"Any government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have"

Thomas Jefferson



One

Big

Ass

Mistake

America

 

[GoGTIgo]

As long as other countries have their hooks in us, those overwhelming hidden agendas will steer internal domestic policies, we just think its about healthcare....who owns the major corps and who are all the stockholders. That's my opinion.





Sent from my iPad3 via Tapatalk

 

[jfelbab]

This country has always been full of gullible people. Occasionally a really smooth talking snake-oil salesman would come along and screw over these people. When discovered, the people would rise up, tar and feather the slick talking creep and ride him out of town on a rail. These days we elect them to public office instead. There they can really screw-over the taxpayers.



Problem today is too many people vote for a living rather than work for a living. Half of this country pays no federal taxes, taking from this country and giving little to nothing in return.



Here is just one small example; a $ Billion here, a $ Billion there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.



KMOV highlights Rep. Griffin's bill to end Uncle Sam's Unlimited Plan - YouTube

Uncle Sam's Unlimited Plan: Learn more about this costly government giveaway - YouTube