Non clearcoat problems

Lowejackson

New member
I have been wondering for some time why I cannot get my non clearcoat Alfa to shine anything like clearcoated cars. But now maybe there is a problem.



The paintworks seems to be harder and harder to shine with a large increase in stone chips and many other marks appearing in recent months.



This weekend I was using OG glaze and was getting black paint on the foam pad. It is not dirt, as I had washed and clayed before using Autoglym Resin (very mild polish). The pads were new and clean. Any ideas on what is happening?



Steven
 
Few questions;



How old is the paint on the car?



I'm assuming it's black by your statement;
was getting black paint on the foam pad?



Have you been compounding it and/or polishing it a lot recently?



Is it garaged or does it sit in the sun a lot?





Just need to know the answer to those in order to be on the same page.
 
Guitarman

The Alfa is a 1993 model which was in poor condition when I bought it a few years ago. I have not used a compound or any strong polishes, my approach has been to stay with a mild polish as the paint seems to be very sensitive to being worked upon.



The car is outside all the time.
 
K, that's what I was afraid of.



You're smart to avoid compounding it too much. There are some recent threads where myself and others have provided some info on the personality of single stage paint vs base/clear that plays into your situation to some extent. You may want to read them if you haven't already.



The good news is; you can polish it to a decent shine.



The bad news is; It will require polishing on a regular basis to maintain that shine. How often is uncertain; you may see dieback in a few days...a week, you may see it in a month...maybe more...because the paint is likely too thin and has lost the glossy solid resins that sat up on the surface, along with some or most of it's UV, also residing in the upper .5 mil. The fact the car sits in the sun exacerbates the process. A garage would be your savior right now. (Been there, I can relate)



The best advice I can give you is to take the least aggressive approach to provide some shine and protection, and hope it holds out for a while. You can try a cleaner wax type product or polymer (Klasse AIO for instance ) with some solvents to attack oxidation instead of more aggressive compounds and polishes and then a wax. To be able to de-oxidize and protect in 1 step is right up your alley. Multi -step polishing processes aren't the right approach here. They would of course produce great results, but it would be short-lived and you'd just remove more paint and speed up the cycle.



If the car was garaged only, I would tell you just to glaze it and add carnauba. That would be a benign approach that results in some shine and swirl hiding, but because it sits outside in rain and sun, that approach would be futile.



I don't know of a panacea for paint when it gets this way, because we can't really put those resins back into the paint. You can only hope the dulling takes a while between the attention you give it, and it isn't often enough to make you give up on the car. But the fact remains, sooner or later you'll need to put some money away for new paint, or resign yourself to polishing the paint on a weekly or bi-monthly basis.



Best of luck, try the 1 step approach with some type of polymer protection involved. Can be a hybrid product but you don't want heavy cleaners or abrasives



Hope this helps.
 
Guitarman- Having worked with detailing single-stage almost as long as you have, I follow your posts on the subject with great interest. You certainly know your stuff :xyxthumbs



I've yet to experience significant "die-back", even on the Volvo, which is usually left outside and was neglected terribly by its previous owner (it's been *AGGRESSIVELY* compounded/polished). Maybe I've just been lucky so far! Or, more likely, my cars are pampered compared to most.



Q: is die-back limited to ENAMELS or does it also happen with LACQUERS?



As far as I know (someone feel free to correct me! Memory fails me here and I don't have any enamel reducer around to test with), my single-stage Jag is done in lacquer. It's now a garage queen, but it has sure been polished a LOT over the last 18 years. I've been treating it pretty gently as of late, trying to keep it original-paint (better imperfect OEM than a perfect repaint, for *ME*). But all the talk of die-back (which sounds sorta familiar, but hey, I first learned this stuff in the '70s :o ) has me wondering...slippery slopes and all.
 
Gentlemen thanks for your help. There is still a shine, I could not describe it as dull but the paint seems to be damaged in some way. Repainting a car worth at most a $1000, does not make a lot of sense to me, so I will do my best to keep the car looking good until I can afford a better one.



Steven
 
I would first like to point out that although I hate to see S/S wetsanded or coarsely buffed a lot, I know for a fact that many people still do it. I would venture to guess that they really don't understand the cause & effect of those actions (till later on afterwards), or they do and it's still the lesser of evils because they need to remove some bad issues in the paint. I can't say whether it's right or wrong in every case, but only that people should know and understand the technical side and it's possible consequences. Let's face it- paint will fade even if you do NOTHING, from exposure to the sun etc. So eventually, you're GOING to have to polish it to some degree.



As for your Volvo, consider yourself lucky, but i'll bet you keep wax or sealant on it too, being a learned Autopian and all. I guess it's going to have variables as with anything, and paint manufacturer and type of paint (even color) used come into play, as well as film build. I know i've read where S/S (acrylic) enamel systems years ago were 10-12 MILs thick, compared to (at most ) 2 MILS of clearcoat on oem paint, so although there's more "headroom" there to buff on older S/S paint (% wise) you will eventually get to that "slippery slope"as you so well put it, IF you keep having to go real aggressive. Todays recent oem S/S urethanes (the Lexus' black onyx for example) are about 2 MILS, the same as their base/clear counterparts. In essence, they are the same paint, one is just non-pigmented.



What is happening with the dieback/dulling in most cases (the case in one thread of wetsanding deeply notwithstanding - that was severe resin removal in one fell swoop) is whenever you polish paint, you're breaking the surface tension and allowing solvent release. The solvents are part of the resin system, in essence they give health to the resins that produce the shine. This is ok and part of the deal to a certain ("slippery slope" ) extent, except that S/S suffers more than base/clear because the pigment is part of the resin system / solvent content. You're good for a few years with this process generally, the removing of oxidized paint...then when that "glossy" resin layer are depleted via abrasives ...yep.





Even some body shops will do it(sand/compound), because their primary interest is in returning a customer's car in the best possible finish, and they often need to sand out debris and orange peel. Are they doing their customer's a disservice? That's one way to look at it if enough paint is removed, because it shortens the life expectancy of the finish, as well as the amount of upkeep the paint will need. But they are thinking short term in their own interests.



I recall a number of painters saying these things over at autobodypro forums in the past (even to other pros that didn't address it), and that they learned the hard way too. As time goes on, less and less cars will have S/S paint, aside from an inexpensive repaint choice, so for the consumer in general, it won't be an issue they need to be concerned with.





As you may know...



Lacquers are very high solvent content paints to begin with, and since they are air cured and UN-catalyzed, they will be forever off gassing and drying, so they suffer dieback whenever their surface tension is broken. They will dull even right after being sprayed because of these things. But they shine up easily and well too, albiet on a regularly needy basis.



I don't think you'd find lacquer on anything much outside of a classic show car these days.



Not an "expert" on this, but I sure have learned a lot from some people in the biz over the years. Hope this helps.
 
Guitarman- Thanks for the additional info. Makes me all the more convinced that my "imperfect, but preserved and original" approach is the right thing for the Jag.



Now that my curiosity is piqued, I'm calling around to my Jag experts about what paint (lacquer/enamel) was OE back in the day :D It sure looks and behaves like lacquer! Heh heh, I just can't think of cars that are younger than I am as "classics" quite yet.



And yes, the Volvo's "abused" by my standards, but it gets compliments even when at its worst, so this stuff really is all relative. And as you said, there are a lot of different variables. I'll be watching with interest the areas where some shop REALLY cut the paint (terribly) with a rotary back in the early '90s...guess I know which panel's gonna get repainted next. After your posts, I'm glad I didn't try to "fix" it.



VERY interesting that today's s/s paints are only as thick as basecoat/clears. YIKES :scared if you ask me, not that anyone did, LOL.



Oh, and BTW, getting QUALITY s/s repaints actually cost MORE around here than b/c repaints. Possibly because the only shops I trust with them know what's what (I hope).



Again, thanks. I always enjoy your posts. I think much of your advice covers concerns that don't really get addressed as often as they possibly should.



Lowejackson- Have you tried/can you get Meg's #7? Might be just the thing for your situation.
 
Oh, and BTW, getting QUALITY s/s repaints actually cost MORE around here than b/c repaints. Possibly because the only shops I trust with them know what's what (I hope).



That does indeed surprise me, but then maybe i'm used to hearing about the inexpensive Maaco S/S jobs from everyone on the car boards these days and the general price differences in raw materials between the 2 systems. Base/clear just requires more "stuff" since each step is 2k. (base/reducer + clear/activator)



Someone high quality like that sure gets my respect, even if it costs more, it's worth it for picky folks like us.



Cheers.
 
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