Nissan 2face detail by KC

D

debaser330ci

New member
Here's the link to the thread at the M5 board:
http://www.bmwm5.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9501

And here's a link to the article itself:
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/gheumann/zaino_test/


There's no doubt he got great results with both products - you can't argue with that shine! But there were a couple of things I found interesting about the writeup. First, from what I've read here, 40% of your results are due to surface prep, 40% are due to technique, and 20% or less are due to the products you use. In his case, he states that "If I was seeking perfection, I would have spent more time with slightly harsher compounds like the Swirl Removers polishing out scratches before using the Zaino." But he IS seeking perfection! His car looks great from all angles, and the very minor swirls he has are only visible to psychos like us. It just seems to me that if he wants to get rid of those for good, he's going to have to do surface prep. And it would probably only take 1 or 2 applications of some kind of light polish or swirl mark remover to do the trick. Hand application of SMR will take no more time or effort than any other kind of waxing or polishing, and the results are great (see my car at http://216.147.22.29/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3202 if you don't know the tragic history of my car.)

I'm also confused about the cost issue. When you have a 40, 50, or 60k car, the cost of any of these products are insignificant. Once you have your technique down, you can do up your whole car in no time with a teensy bit of Z2 and a foam applicator.

Admittedly, I'm biased against Z5 (don't even own any even though I bleed Z6 from open cuts and when I blow my nose Z2 comes out) or anything that hides swirls/scratches. The last thing I want to see in February when its been 4 weeks since I washed my car and 2 months from my last Z2 application is swirls coming to the surface (though I'm sure no matter what I do, I'm going to have a tough winter with no garage). So I personally try to rid my car of them totally when i have the opportunity, not try and cover them up.

Anyways, Kudos to Greg for stepping up and writing a great unbiased review.:D It took alot of work on his part to write it, make the page, and take the pics.
 
He compares the shine and gloss of Meguiars and Zaino right after application. The real test would be to check them in a month, I bet the Zaino is by far better than the Meguiars. I like Meguiars products, but the durability is pathetic. Synthetics like Klasse and Zaino last around 6 months, I dont know of a Meguiars product that can come close to that. Oh yeah, why is he complaining that the did not mask the swirls, that is what abrasives are for. :)



Oh well, they can keep their Meguiars. I would take a synthetic like Klasse or Zaino any day of the week over a Meguiars product.



At least he took the time to write it up, you can tell he put a lot of time and work into it.
 
Tonight I drove the Expedition for the first time in like a week. Cause I have the new vette. Ford totally covered in dust.



BTW, the vette has collected every molecule of dust in the air around it. But that's another story.



We have a pollen problem here. That's for sure.



Anyway, I was thinking that maybe the Expedition wasn't looking as good as it should after 6 coats of Zaino. One week goes by, and I drive it. You guessed it, looks better than ever. I'll post dusty pics tomorrow. As I drove it, the Expedition just kept looking better. Wish that happened to me personally whenever I drove.



There is almost a "hard shell" finish now on the vehicles. Don't quite know how else to put it. Just hope it holds up all winter!
 
Ok that was a long read but worth it.



I thought vertical panels should be rubbed up and down?



Also, I thought you Z5 till happy?



Interesting though.
 
That's better.



Let's compare apples to apples here. Meguiars looks great, I've used it. It smells good too. And isn't hard to use.



Zaino has these characteristics also, and it lasts 6 times longer (I'm just guessing, could be 12)



If you have a disagreement with me on this, I would love to hear your logic.



Bye.
 
While I'm certainly no fan of the Zaino hype, I do agree with ShowroomLincoln - a comparison after the second wash would easily show the Zaino side looking better. I am sure of this. The Meguiars product simply does not last. If you want to wax a lot, the Gold Class is great though.
 
RH,



I agree with you. I am not a big fan a the Zaino hype either, but I think Zaino is a better product than Meguiars. The purpose of synthetics like Klasse or Zaino is NOT to look better than a wax, but to equal the look and keep it for a long time. The great thing about synthetics has always been durability.
 
When you are talking high-end, high quality polymers or Carnauba, you cannot really do a true comparison test (except for lasting effect) unless you do the test in an identical environment, long term test, say, 10 years. The test has to be consistent. Lets just say its impossible to do such a thing.



As they say in the business "When you working with high quality waxes, its not the wax, but the application of.."



Edit: The tests I've been doing for 10 months now have compared Meguires to Zymol, and now Griots has entered this test. The testing is stictly objectional to the eye, and durability (lasting effect) and I only do it seasonally to get consistant environmental factors to test durability. So far, Meguires beats Zymol "in my test" (purely objectional and durability testing) and so far Griots has passed up Meguires in my current test. I plan to try Zaino next, but that won't be until next spring.
 
Meguiars may not last as long (and Gold Class is definately not their best wax), but it is easier to use, and if you don't mind waxing every couple of months with Meguiars High Tech Yellow #26, then the shine will last. Meguiars does have a polymer wax (#20) that works very well.



I have a business to run and cannot spend the incredible amount of time on customer's cars it takes to properly apply Zainos. Besides, most of my regulars want their cars waxed often-one wants his CL500 waxed every two weeks. I also cannot afford to be at the mercy of mail order. I have a Meguairs distributer nearby, so getting more product is easy. I think the shine is pretty much the same with both products, so if you only car about not having to wax your car often, then a synthetic wax is a better choice than a carnuba based wax; but in my case, Meguiars advantages in ease of use and availibility outway the durability concerns. Try telling someone it is going to take 6 hours to wax their car and you are going to charge them $200.





BTW, this is the reflection off the roof of my 1990 Accord-and yes that is the original paint and I took the picture this summer after I washed my car. I had waxed it about 4 weeks before I took the pic.
 
After reading about all the "hype" about Zaino, I would just like to state my feelings, FWIW.



First, there may be some folks here that beat the Zaino drum a little too much. I don't see it myself but then I use it. I do see a lot of Klasse drum beating, Mequiars, and others. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned.



But to say that it takes 6 hours to do somebody's car in Zaino with the unwritten assertion that some other product is much much easier and faster to apply is a bit much. If you have never applied Zaino, how would you even know? The only time consuming part of it is waiting 30 minutes or so for it to dry enough to wipe off. During this time I always detail the interior. No wasted time at all. If anything, you are keeping busy and productive the whole time. I have used Mequiars #26 many times, and it was a bit harder for me to apply than Zaino and harder to take off because of the amount of work it took to wipe it off. This may have been a result of my technique, though.



I washed and applied a coat of Z2 to my vette last friday in two hours total - by myself, start to finish. This included all windows, door sills, and under-body painted surfaces. Also interior detail (the car was pretty good already, admittedly.) And I am really particular. It wasn't even very warm out (low 70's and in a considerable amount of shade.) I use very thin coats as I now have my techique more or less perfected.



I think there would be a product that would beat Zaino on speed of application and would do about as good on one-coat duration on a car that you had no idea what was done to it (like a detailer's new customer's car.) That would be Klasse AOI because of it's cleaner ability. Other one steps would be equivalent on speed possibly, but maybe not duration as Klasse seems to be very durable from comments I have read here.



If I had a customer who wanted his car waxed every two weeks, I would ask him the following questions. Do you want your shine to get deeper and deeper with each application? Or do want to keep the same initial shine each time? And if you have to have your car out of my hands for a few extra weeks, do you want to have lasting protection or just wing it? It's up to you.



The mail order thing is a non-issue for me. May not be for you. I just buy plenty, and it's always here in 5 or 6 days from when I mail the check. You can order from a few sites that take credit card orders to speed the process up if you suddenly find yourself running low.



This is the other side of the story. Folks, Zaino is very easy to use. Don't let anybody else tell you any different. Every single person I have helped do their car commented that they have never removed a wax easier than Zaino Z5 or Z2. And application (not removal) is practically exactly the same for Z2, AIO, #26, Zymol, or whatever.



End of my diatribe. Sorry to beat a dead horse for those of you who have heard this all before.
 
Cybercowboy--the shine on my car is an accumulation of 5 year of using Meguiars and 3M products and the gloss far exceeds any new car your would care to put it against, and the same with my customer who has me wax his car every two weeks. It practically glows in the dark. To say that Meguiars shine is not accumulative is dead wrong--if I understand what your are saying correctly.



The 6 hours is from what I understand is the wait to apply additional coats-and I have also heard it is 24 hours in some instances. I also have strong reservations with washing anyone's car with Dawn dishwashing liquid. Not only will it strip the old wax (and yes, I understand that is the point), but the degreasers are strong enough to remove oil from the paint as well.



If you are having a problem wiping off Meguiars #26, then you are probably using too much or need to polish the paint first. On a smooth, well prepped surface, Meguiars #26 should easily wipe off.



Frankly, my problem with mail order is that I hate it. I never seem to get anything I order when I am supposed to. I have absolutely no faith in the mail service, or UPS and the other package delivery places either, for that matter.



I have heard great things about Zaino, and I am sure it works great, but the higher costs, issues with mail order and some of the application issues will keep me from using it, especially in light of the side by side comparisions that show little if any difference in shine. Durability is not usually an issue with most of my customers, they want their cars waxed often, and I definately have some that will never be conviced they don't need their cars waxed as often as they want me to.
 
Hey, Folks -

I'm the guy who did the Zaino test. WOW - this thing has taken on a life of its own and has spread all over the internet. I'm new to this board - didn't know it existed - but glad to find out about it. I can tell from your responses this is a pretty good board, much like our M5 board. People voice their opinions but acknowledge others' views and generally seem respectful. (You ought to see the responses on the Viper board ;) )

Anyway, thought I'd respond to a few points in your comments:

Everyone:

Zaino claims superiority in 4 areas:

1) Shine/Gloss/Depth
2) Swirl Mark Hiding
3) Dust Repulsion/Release
4) Longevity.

So far I have "proven" that claims 1-3 don't hold water. Zaino is just as good, but no better, then Gold Class in these categories. (I put "proven" in quotes - I have certainly proven it to muyself and I'm a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic.) Many of the responses have defended it on its superior longevity. Zaino may well last better than Meguiar's. I cannot dispute that because I haven't tested for it - there is no hard evidence. I said that in my review. That doesn't, however, invalidate the other conclusions.

P.S. - Everyone has an opinion. I'm trying to get past that, to proven fact. So far nobody has said anything to discredit my methods, but I am absolutely open to it, and if anyone else wants to "prove" that I'm wrong in any of the above, I am all ears. All I care about is the truth. But please back up your claims with reasonable evidence.


<strong class='bbc'>debaser330ci:[/b] you're right, I am seeking perfection, even though I know there ain't no such thing. I actually hoped Zaino would live up to its claims. I would LOVE to have a product that made getting rid of swirl marks that easy! :) I was just tired of hearing the Zaino Zealots hold the product up as if it were god's gift to us all, and dramatically better than its competition. As for cost, most of us who buy expensive cars didn't get our $$ by throwing them away. Why pay more for Zaino if Meguiar's is just as good?

<strong class='bbc'>Cybercowboy[/b] - sounds like you're saying driving your expedition blew the dust off. Did you see the dust test on my page? I let it get dusty, drove it as fast as about 80mph, and parked it. I could see no difference between the Meguiar's and Zaino sides. But you're right - a real Zaino advantage is its ease of application. I think I said that, too.

<strong class='bbc'>Guess My Name:[/b] Yes - vertical panels really should be rubbed vertically. This panel is actually curved and goes from almost vertical to almost horizontal. I probably should have done it vertically.

<strong class='bbc'>JPS:[/b] That NSX test was one of the reasons I bought Zaino. Not exactly fair though - he didn't do any cleaning/prep on the Meguiar's side. I know the Z1 isn't abrasive, but it still provides some cleaning/prep - at least according to its label.

<strong class='bbc'>Scottwax/Ripsnort:[/b] Gold Class is not a carnauba based wax. It is polymer based. Meguiar's tells me it is is their best for shine, not their best for longevity. I chose it for this reason. Shine is my definite priority. My car gets washed so often I HAVE to re-wax fairly often, and I don't mind. For longevity, their "Medallion Premium Paint Protection" is probably their best.

<strong class='bbc'>All:[/b] There is no question that there is a "mystique" surrounding Zaino. This is the "hype". My personal opinion is that this is due to the fact that it is hard to get. I think people believe if they are members of a more exclusive club, or if they had to go the extra mile for a product, or even if they paid more for it, they are more likely to feel postively about it, if only to justify their decision. Whether this is a calculated marketing strategy or just an accident on Zaino's part is unknown - but I think he is missing a huge revenue opportunity by not distributing a little more broadly. He will only let customers distribute, they cannot sell over the internet and they can't sell anything else. Sounds to me like someone trying to preserve a myth rather than someone with a truly superior solution.

Thanks for listening. I hope to come back here for advice, counsel and commiseration. If anyone here is local to San Mateo, CA and interested in getting together to compare finishes, swap stories and techniques, etc - I'm open to it.

Cheers! Keep 'em shiny!
 
carguy--I am aware that Gold Class is a polymer wax, but Meguiars Polymer Wax #20 is better, IMO. For shine, though, I like Meguiars High Tech Yellow or 3Ms Perfect-it Show Car <strong class='bbc'>Paste[/b] wax (definately not the liquid). High Tech Yellow also leaves no white residue and will shine the black plastic mirrors and window frames on BMWs. BTW, I have used Medallion also and it does last a long time.

My preferred method is a coat of Meguiars Hand Polish (Body Shop Pro line), applied with a foam hand applicator and rubbed into the paint until it looks almost clear then a coat of High Tech Yellow or 3Ms Perfect it. I just did a Bentley today using that method-and he has me wax it every 3rd time I wash it (he's rich, so money is not a problem), and the shine is deeper than when new, and the above method and prior use of Meguairs Dual Action Cleaner/Polish and Swirl Free Polish (Body Shop Pro line), I was also able to get rid of all the swirl marks the importer let some moron with a buffer and wool pad put in the paint. Getting rid of all the white residue was also fun. I've been doing this guy's cars for almost 8 years now, so I must be doing something right. I asked him today if he wanted me to try a more durable wax on his car, and he said not to bother, he wants his cars waxed at least once a month.
 
I've tried Zymol, Zaino, 3M, and about 3 different Meguiar's wax products. They ALL work. The Zymol isn't worth the exorbitant prices. You know what I think about Zaino. I am currently using the Meguiar's Gold Class Show Car Wax. It comes as paste or liquid. I use the liquid because I apply (as well as remove) via orbital. I have found you get MUCH better results if you let it dry a long time - like an hour - before buffing.



My pre-cleaning regimen:



I needed: Mother's clay bar if I have above-surface defects (interesting to hear this board's negative experience with the Meguiar's clay - I have some but haven't opened it. And I DO like the Mother's.)



I've tried both 3M Imperial Hand Glaze (been a fan of it for years) and Meguiar's Show Car Glaze - I think the 3m is easier to apply but I have trouble with it streaking/staining a bit. I like its results. Meguiar's is pretty good.



I'm happy with Final Inspection as a spray touch up. Haven't tried anything else except the Zaino Z6, which also seems to be quite good - though I don't know whether it makes sense to use it over non-Zaino wax.



If mild cleaning is needed, Meguiar's Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner. And if deeper than that - well, I have a boatload of stuff but technique becomes more and more important with the more abrasive products and I ain't willing to learn on my own cars, especially when they don't need it! So I don't claim any specific expertise with them. However - I had my first positive experience with 3M Dark Finish Swirl Mark Remover today - previously all I had gotten was hazed surfaces. Another guy on the M5 board recommended the following technique, which I tried and I liked the results:



1) You MUST use an orbital. This stuff doesn't seem to work well by hand



2) You MUST use a foam pad



3) You need to use moderate to heavy pressure at first. I was using enough to slow the porter-cable down by 15-25%. I am running at speed 5, and I was going pretty slow (1-2" per second, several passes.) As the stuff starts to dry you use successively lighter pressure until almost all the residue is gone. I think what is going on here is that the abrasives actually break down and get finer and finer, so it polishes out its own scratches as it goes. If you don't let it do this, it SUCKS.



Once there's hardly any residue, buff the rest off. I like the Meguiar's Ultimate Wipes, and since i have a bunch I use them. I know there are other microfiber towels out there but I know some are good, some aren't - so I haven't researched it. I do have their "Ultimate Bonnet" which is the same stuff but formed to stretch over the 6" foam pad. BEG, BORROW OR STEAL one of these puppies. They are fantastic. I can remove ALL the wax residue from my M5 in under 15 minutes - you don't have to turn it, lift it, fluff it, anything. It is the best thing to come along in a long, long time as far as I'm concerned.



As a result of the Zaino test, I've got free samples converging upon my home from all over the place. :bounce



I'll let y'all know if I find anything that stands out.



Cheers
 
Scottwax - we must have been typing at the same time. I'll give some of those a try. Thanks for the recommendation.



You said "My preferred method is a coat of Meguiars Hand Polish (Body Shop Pro line), applied with a foam hand applicator and rubbed into the paint until it looks almost clear then a coat of High Tech Yellow or 3Ms Perfect it. "



Are you saying you don't buff the remaining hand polish off before applying the wax? (I have the BSHP and dual-action cleaner/polish "in stock".) Also, I used the Perfect-It stuff for a while - I did like the shine but not the residue. Still, not bad stuff.
 
carguy--I buff off the Hand Polish before applying wax. I just accepted that anyone reading that would assume I would buff off the excess-my mistake. I forget that at this level, many people have non-conventional methods to achieving the best shine.



I prefer Meguiars Hand Polish to Show Car Glaze. It has even more oils and seems to wipe off easier. I also like 3Ms Imperial Hand Glaze as well, but I agree it can be hard to buff off at times.





A general note: The only problem with Meguiars Hand Polish is that you can only get it through a Meguiars distributer. You can go to their website and click on the link that will direct you to their local 'professional' product distributers.



I realize this does not apply to you, carguy since you have these products in stock.
 
I have heard from an optical engineer who works for a company that makes test instruments, including a "gloss-meter" . (See http://www.geneq.com/catalog/en/novo-haze_hazemeter.html)

This is an expensive, laboratory tool that measures gloss (reflectivity at various angles) and haze (defined as the difference between reflection at 20 and 60 degrees). He tested Zaino on his own cars against Meguiar's Scratch-X (not really a whole-surface product but he did anayway) as well as Nu-Finish and a few other techniques/products. He used a very scrientific approach, taking several samples of each surface he worked on. (He sent me an Excel sheet full of data.)

He came to exactly the same conclusions I did - there is absolutely NO Zaino gloss advantage. (This isn't to say Zaino doesn't have better longevity.)
 
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