Newbie with Great results but a few questions

[Doc83]

I have been lurking on here for a while now and I decided to go ahead and purchase some products and get to work



I recently purchased a 1993 Nissan Skyline GTR in Gunmetal, the paint has seen better days and is really faded on the hood and trunk, the spoiler has tons of water marks and needs so major help. Being the type of guy that wants to attempt to do things myself I purchased a PC XP some accessories and got to work



here is a pic I took of the hood just as reference







here is a list of what I purchased



Porter Cable XP



Lake country CCS 5" pads

2 white pads (1 flat, 1 dimpled)

2 orange pads (1 flat, 1 dimpled)

1 green pad (dimpled)

2 black pads (1 flat, 1 dimpled)

2 blue pads (1 flat, 1 dimpled)



Lake country Hydro-tech Red 5" pad



Pad Cleaner

Pad cleaning brush

4.5 backing plate



Menzerna 203

Menzerna 106FA

Menzerna 85RD

Collinite 845

Sonax wheel cleaner

some alcohol (for IPA - 70% diluted 50/50 with water)

a few microfiber towels



and so Saturday morning rolls around and im out bright and early excited to get started



the car is still in the shade as the sun hasn't come over the house yet so I get the hose and wet down the car and begin with the following



1. wash car with Meguiars Gold class wash (and dry)

2. clay bar the car with Mothers clay bar and use Mothers California Showtime as my lube

3. wash the car with Dawn original (and dry)



after getting all my stuff together I pulled the car into the garage and taped off a section on the hood about 2' x 2' and started the next phase



4. PC with white pad (dimpled, slight spray of Mothers California Showtime ) and Menzerna 203

2 quick passes on speed 1 to spread the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

8 passes on speed 5 to work the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

2 passes on speed 3 after product is fully clear (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

after finishing I wiped the section down with a damp microfiber cloth

5. IPA wipe down

6. PC with black pad (dimpled, slight spray of Mothers California Showtime ) and Menzerna 106FA

2 quick passes on speed 1 to spread the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

8 passes on speed 4 to work the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

2 passes on speed 2.5 after product is fully clear (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

7. IPA wipe down

8. PC with blue pad (dimpled, slight spray of Mothers California Showtime ) and Menzerna 85RD

2 quick passes on speed 1 to spread the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

8 passes on speed 3 to work the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

2 passes on speed 2 after product is fully clear (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

9. IPA wipe down

10. PC with Hydro-tech red pad and Collinite 845

2 quick passes on speed 1 to spread the product (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

multiple passes on speed 2.5 to fully work product into the paint (up/down and left/right = 1 pass)

after letting it come to a haze (few mins) I wiped it down with another microfiber cloth

11. I repeated step 10 again for a second layer



here is the before and after so you can see them side by side









This is where my questions begin

photos don't show the correct result



as you can see in the photos I have a great angle on the hood

in reality when looking straight down the hood now looks like the top picture and the surrounding area where I didn't polish is much worse

is this because I didn't work the products enough or is a stronger compound/polish needed to achieve a better gloss

when looking straight down on the hood I can see my facial features but its not clear and I can still see a haze from the faded paint





also does my process seem right, am I missing anything in this process, or anything not needed?



thanks in advance for your help and comments

 

[pwaug]

Welcome to Autopia and don't be discouraged if you don't get immediate responses--over time you'll find this site is a little different from the others and you will get information from knowledgable detailers.



That said--I'm not that familiar with Menzerna products, but here's a few general observations--



There's no need for a wash after claying, just move on to polishing.

Why are you using both flat and dimpled pads?? Flat pads tend to offer the best correction. As you move on to do the whole car you'll need more pads than 2 for each step--usually 4 per step.

Spritzing the pad with detail spray is just diluting your polishes.

Smart move to do the test spot before you do the entire car.

With all the steps and passes you're doing you should be seeing better results so consider: Are you using enough pressure on the PC when doing your passes--15-20 lbs? What machine speed are you using--with the PC you really need to use the higher speeds like 6 especially for your first step. Are you using a very slow arm speed when you move the machine? Perhaps you need to go to a more aggressive pad for your first step as white is a polishing pad. Perhaps you need a more aggressive polish/compound for your first step. With the newer compounds out there you should be able to get the correction you need on the first step with a few passes and finish down with an almost LSP ready finish then just remove any hazing on your second step using a finer polish and a few passes to be LSP ready.



It might be a good idea to post another picture that shows the true condition of the test spot after using your procedure.



Hope this helps and will generate some additional comments.

 

[Scottwax]

With a 20 year old car, you might be running into an issue with the clear coat being too thin. Can you can some pictures with the sun shining directly onto the paint?

 

[Ron Ketcham]

With a 20 year old car, you might be running into an issue with the clear coat being too thin. Can you can some pictures with the sun shining directly onto the paint?

Scott,l think you are on the money regarding the age of the OEM paint and since they used a less robust base/clear, plus who knows how many times it has been "hammered" in it's life, the clear may be failing. 20 years is a long time for most any OEM paint system that is exposed to the real world to stay perfect.

 

[Doc83]

Welcome to Autopia and don't be discouraged if you don't get immediate responses--over time you'll find this site is a little different from the others and you will get information from knowledgable detailers.



That said--I'm not that familiar with Menzerna products, but here's a few general observations--



There's no need for a wash after claying, just move on to polishing. wipe off the excess instant detailer and polish away?

Why are you using both flat and dimpled pads?? Flat pads tend to offer the best correction. As you move on to do the whole car you'll need more pads than 2 for each step--usually 4 per step. I bought some of each so I could test out what pads I like more that way I knew what to order for the next batch ( I was only doing the hood in this attempt )

Spritzing the pad with detail spray is just diluting your polishes. I have heard that a dry washed pad can cause some marring to the paint if nothing is added... is this a myth? Smart move to do the test spot before you do the entire car.

With all the steps and passes you're doing you should be seeing better results so consider: Are you using enough pressure on the PC when doing your passes--15-20 lbs? What machine speed are you using--with the PC you really need to use the higher speeds like 6 especially for your first step. Are you using a very slow arm speed when you move the machine? Perhaps you need to go to a more aggressive pad for your first step as white is a polishing pad. Perhaps you need a more aggressive polish/compound for your first step. With the newer compounds out there you should be able to get the correction you need on the first step with a few passes and finish down with an almost LSP ready finish then just remove any hazing on your second step using a finer polish and a few passes to be LSP ready.

I watched a video on youtube where they took a sharpie and out a line on the pad and indicated that it should move slightly faster than the seconds hand on a clock. I was using this to judge my pressure. as for speed moving up/down/left/right I would say it was comparable with the video as well. here is the link to the video Adam's Polishes Guide to Machine Polishing - Chapter 7: Porter Cable with Microfiber Pads - YouTube



It might be a good idea to post another picture that shows the true condition of the test spot after using your procedure.



Hope this helps and will generate some additional comments. great tips and it will help on my next attempt for sure, thanks again

ill take some more pics this weekend and post them up of the other secion on the car as well as a direct view down where I used the products

 

[Doc83]

With a 20 year old car, you might be running into an issue with the clear coat being too thin. Can you can some pictures with the sun shining directly onto the paint?

will do this weekend for sure and ill post them back up

 

[Accumulator]

Doc83- Welcome to Autopia!



Now that you've clayed, you probably won't have to clay the entire vehicle again (at least not in a "major way") for a good long time. When doing subsequent claying, I'd plan on just doing it as part of the wash, as in: wash; rinse; lube and clay; wipe and inspect, quickly rewash and rinse; move on to next area.



Regarding the QD-on-pads, it really is not necessary...nor advisable. OK, some of us do *sometimes* do things like that, but only in very rare cases and for very specific reasons. You should just skip it.



While some (quite) aggressive pads *might* cause a little light marring if used "dry", it's nothing to worry about. Subsequent polishing (i.e., with the product better distributed, which happens naturally as you do the work) will take care of that (if it happens at all). It won't be an issue with the less-aggressive pads.



And yeah, I'd *absolutely* skip the dimpled pads and stick with flat ones. And note that most people underestimate how often/thoroughly they need to clean their pads (or get out a new one). Cut-off clear and dried polish can build up a lot faster than one might think.

 

[David Fermani]

Here's my suggestion.....

Ditch the Menzerna for this level of correction. These are great polishes (usually), but don't correct all that much. You need a dedicated compound and a cutting pad to make the progress that you will be satisfied with. You've got some aged paint that I'm sure has some serious oxidation and marring present. This needs to be leveled away before any polishing gets done. I just don't think the products you have will do the job. Also, ditch the pad lube. Worthless IMHO.

 

[Doc83]

sorry about the delay

i am attending my first year of mature college in 2 weeks and it has been quite the effort in getting ready

i have yet to clean the car again since doing this process and its driving me nuts

im hoping this weekend is nice so i can get back to this finally

ill keep you all posted and try and get a better set of pics ready

Doc83- Welcome to Autopia!



Now that you've clayed, you probably won't have to clay the entire vehicle again (at least not in a "major way") for a good long time. When doing subsequent claying, I'd plan on just doing it as part of the wash, as in: wash; rinse; lube and clay; wipe and inspect, quickly rewash and rinse; move on to next area.



Regarding the QD-on-pads, it really is not necessary...nor advisable. OK, some of us do *sometimes* do things like that, but only in very rare cases and for very specific reasons. You should just skip it.



While some (quite) aggressive pads *might* cause a little light marring if used "dry", it's nothing to worry about. Subsequent polishing (i.e., with the product better distributed, which happens naturally as you do the work) will take care of that (if it happens at all). It won't be an issue with the less-aggressive pads.



And yeah, I'd *absolutely* skip the dimpled pads and stick with flat ones. And note that most people underestimate how often/thoroughly they need to clean their pads (or get out a new one). Cut-off clear and dried polish can build up a lot faster than one might think.

thanks for the advise, my usual wash is somewhere around there anyway so its good to know im on the right track

as per the qd on the pads i must have just been a little paranoid about the potential marring but if its safe to do so without even better

i try and keep a watch on my pads as often as i can and clean / change asap.. ill continue to keep a close eye on them while working away

i have found that i like the dimpled pads for some parts of the process but your right the flat pads are much better

thanks again for the advise

Here's my suggestion.....

Ditch the Menzerna for this level of correction. These are great polishes (usually), but don't correct all that much. You need a dedicated compound and a cutting pad to make the progress that you will be satisfied with. You've got some aged paint that I'm sure has some serious oxidation and marring present. This needs to be leveled away before any polishing gets done. I just don't think the products you have will do the job. Also, ditch the pad lube. Worthless IMHO.

that was my next step finding something a little stronger

i was thinking i might need to go the m105/m205 route but and from there add in the polishes afterwards to clear everything up

from this im assuming an orange/white pad with the 105 and from there down to a white/green pad for m205

i can use what i did previously for the polishing with menzerna afterwards to bring in the shine/depth and detail needed for a better outcome

does that sound like it would work out??

 

[Accumulator]

sorry about the delay

i am attending my first year of mature college in 2 weeks and it has been quite the effort in getting ready...

I wish you all the best in your educational endeavors, and hope they take priority over this car stuff.

..i have found that i like the dimpled pads for some parts of the process..

Just watch that the depressions don't accumulate dried polish/cut-off clear.

..i was thinking i might need to go the m105/m205 route but and from there add in the polishes afterwards to clear everything up..i can use what i did previously for the polishing with menzerna afterwards to bring in the shine/depth and detail needed for a better outcome

Yes on the M105, but I'd absolutely get HD Polish instead of the M205, the residual oils that M205 leaves behind can drive me nuts. But in either case you should be able to go directly to your LSP. Not knocking the Menzerna at all, I just don't think it'll be necessary, but see how it goes.



OR...just use the Menzerna that you have now after the M105 :think: IMO your real need is the M105, you might be perfectly OK with your current Menzerna products after the M105 does the majority of the correction.



The M105 will do almost all the work, the subsequent steps merely refine things, removing the (hopefully very minor) micromarring that the M105 leaves in its wake.

..from this im assuming an orange/white pad with the 105 and from there down to a white/green pad for m205 [or the HD Polish or Menzerna]..

Yes. I like to do a pass with M105/white after doing the serious correction with M105/orange. Some people don't find it necessary but that's what works best for me. Then go on to a more gentle product/pad combo.

 

[Ch96067]

Hi Doc,



You have received advise from very knowlegeable guys. I will just propose if possible to get some paint depth measurements so that you know what you have to play with.



If this is not possible and you are lucky not to face the issues Scott and Ron mentioned, then to me at least you overall approach with the adjustments in polishes and agreessiveness suggested should get you much better results.



Regarding the initial effort a couple of things from my limited experience. White LC can do extremely little (if anything) in way of correcting. Orange may be a little better but still not by much. Perhaps I missed it but you don't mention priming your pads. I think it will be a good idea to reduce marring and improve workability.



Also you mention 1 pass = up/down+left/right. I think that is actually 2 passes. So this means you are putting in quite a number of passes. How long roughly did you need for the polishing with white/black/blue? Having done that for 3 full steps should have taken you a lot of time with all the wiping down etc involved even for the test spot. If it didn't could it be that you are moving too fast?



In any case with the good advise that you have received and your clear willingness you should be on your way. Let us know how it's going.

 

[Doc83]

I wish you all the best in your educational endeavors, and hope they take priority over this car stuff.



Just watch that the depressions don't accumulate dried polish/cut-off clear.



Yes on the M105, but I'd absolutely get HD Polish instead of the M205, the residual oils that M205 leaves behind can drive me nuts. But in either case you should be able to go directly to your LSP. Not knocking the Menzerna at all, I just don't think it'll be necessary, but see how it goes.



OR...just use the Menzerna that you have now after the M105 :think: IMO your real need is the M105, you might be perfectly OK with your current Menzerna products after the M105 does the majority of the correction.



The M105 will do almost all the work, the subsequent steps merely refine things, removing the (hopefully very minor) micromarring that the M105 leaves in its wake.



Yes. I like to do a pass with M105/white after doing the serious correction with M105/orange. Some people don't find it necessary but that's what works best for me. Then go on to a more gentle product/pad combo.

thank you very much for your well wishes and i appreciate the efforts in helping me with all this

i have actually ordered the M105 now and the HD polish to work with it ( havent received it yet but cant wait)

i also ordered 3 flat pads for each step ( 3 orange(m105), 3 white(m105), 3 green (hd polish) and will be keeping them just for those products

i have to agree with your orange/white step with the M105 i will be doing this process just to leave a better end result after the M105

thank you again

Hi Doc,



You have received advise from very knowlegeable guys. I will just propose if possible to get some paint depth measurements so that you know what you have to play with.



If this is not possible and you are lucky not to face the issues Scott and Ron mentioned, then to me at least you overall approach with the adjustments in polishes and agreessiveness suggested should get you much better results.



Regarding the initial effort a couple of things from my limited experience. White LC can do extremely little (if anything) in way of correcting. Orange may be a little better but still not by much. Perhaps I missed it but you don't mention priming your pads. I think it will be a good idea to reduce marring and improve workability.



Also you mention 1 pass = up/down+left/right. I think that is actually 2 passes. So this means you are putting in quite a number of passes. How long roughly did you need for the polishing with white/black/blue? Having done that for 3 full steps should have taken you a lot of time with all the wiping down etc involved even for the test spot. If it didn't could it be that you are moving too fast?



In any case with the good advise that you have received and your clear willingness you should be on your way. Let us know how it's going.

unfortunately i dont have any access to a paint depth measurement tool so i would have no way to find proper measurements

yes i did put in quite a number of passes and that little spot (2x2) to do the whole process took me roughly 3-4 hours

i know that seems like a crazy amount of time for 1 section but i was taking my time and wanted to do things right

now that i see that i was doing double the number of passes i will have to drop that down to half and check my results

thanks for the tips



i will keep you all posted

i hope to have my products tuesday/wednesday and i can get back to work over the long weekend

 

[Accumulator]

Doc83- One more thing...remember that the M105 never breaks down, it just dries out. So it's always abrasive, even when you're wiping it off. So try to do that buff-off rather gently, lest you instill a lot more (maybe not so micro)marring in the process.

 

[Doc83]

Doc83- One more thing...remember that the M105 never breaks down, it just dries out. So it's always abrasive, even when you're wiping it off. So try to do that buff-off rather gently, lest you instill a lot more (maybe not so micro)marring in the process.

So I still follow the normal process of spread product throughly on speed 1 and then x amount of passes on a higher speed like 4 or 5 and after a few passes at a reduced speed ( 2.5 - 3 ) and white off with a damp cloth or is the reduced speed not needed because of its abrasive properties?

 

[Accumulator]

So I still follow the normal process of spread product throughly on speed 1 and then x amount of passes on a higher speed like 4 or 5 and after a few passes at a reduced speed ( 2.5 - 3 ) and white off with a damp cloth or is the reduced speed not needed because of its abrasive properties?

NO, glad you asked!



Don't spread the M105. IME that merely speeds up the already quick drying/"flashing". Just set the polisher down on the (relatively small, or at least that's how I do it) area you're going to work and turn it on at your selected speed (4.5 or higher works for me).



Similarly, I don't do any of the "additional passes at a reduced speed". I work the M105 until either a) the marring appears corrected (it can be hard to tell while you're doing the work, but it gets easier with experience) or b) the product starts to dry out (don't let it go completely dry; this stuff does "flash off" pretty fast you it's not some long work period).



I use a small spritz of M34 Final Inspection, a "clean" QD that doesn't leave much of anything behind. I wouldn't use something like the Showtime which does leave quite a bit behind. I've never tried using a MF damp with water...might be better than nothing but I really like the M34 as it provides good lubricity and some encapsulation, which minimize the micromarring.

 

[Doc83]

sweet thanks for the heads up ill check that out as well see what i can find

i moved to the trunk yesterday while i had some time and just tried the process i started with but using the new techniques and tips from all of you who replied and i have to say it turned out pretty good

the trunk was no where near as bad as the hood but i still see areas while i believe the stronger compound will help bring out the best finish

i cant wait to get my M105 and start working to get a great finish



thanks again everyone and ill still keep you all posted ( took some pics yesterday as well just have to upload them to photobucket and post them up, should be on here tomorrow)

 

[David Fermani]

Do a search on the Kevin Brown Method (KBM). It will give you some additional pointers that will make your final outcome much better.

 

[dtyjyaejian]

as you can see in the photos I have a great angle on the hood

 

[yjetyietijian]

I have been lurking on here for a while now and I decided to go ahead and purchase some products and get to work