NEWB: Zaino one panel at a time... (extending application over a period of days).

Any issues with streaking with Zaino due to humidity should disappear after a day or so. I really like the ZAIO/Z8 combo. If you are having issue with durability then it might be a paint issue or environmental issue.
 
wannafbody said:
Any issues with streaking with Zaino due to humidity should disappear after a day or so. I really like the ZAIO/Z8 combo. If you are having issue with durability then it might be a paint issue or environmental issue.
This is the combo I am going to try I am going to use a Pc with a black pad, any pointers you can give me?
 
Update:



✔ After having some difficulty reaching Sal via phone (his emails were not answering my questions) I finally spoke with him about his products (Zaino Triplets) in regards to my durability issues and he pinned most of the blame on "bad paint". I admitted to him that my van was repainted at some point (before I bought it), possibly with a budget company, and the paint quality may not be all that good? After that he also said that even if beading is not present at all, it does not mean that the protection is gone, he claimed that "the products are not going anywhere" which to me sounded contradictory to what I have read on the Zaino website (which I believe he wrote) and what I have learned on websites like this forum....



If a manufacturer claims that their polish/wax will bead water initially and then magically change to sheeting... I say impossible!!!! Let them prove that the polish/wax film protection initially applied is still there...

- Zaino Store



✖RANT: After reading in detail most of the Zaino product pages multiple times, costumer reviews on his products and product descriptions on Zaino's website I can only say that some of the products on his website seem to cross over each other (in what they do and how they are described). This has been very confusing to me, for example: he recommends Z-5 Pro for dark color paints INSTEAD of Z-2 in one page (both of which I do not use), so you go and look at Z-5 convinced that this is a good choice based on his expert advice and his extremely enthusiastic descriptions of gloss capabilities, etc, but then right there on the Z-5 Pro page you find that he also recommends the application of Z-2 Pro to achieve even HIGHER levels of gloss!!!??? In my opinion this negates his initial recommendation for Z-5 Pro, since Z-2 is meant for lighter paint colors apparently. You'll find a similar case with Z-6 and Z-8, but not as bad.



I looked at both product pages, side by side and you realize that both pages mean the same thing and both products achieve the same thing. In conclusion: WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO PRODUCTS? Or are they so similar that you really should not worry about which one you pick? If that's the case, then why make it? Zaino is sold a as a multi-step system, which I like, but read some of the pages on the website and quickly you realize that the words used pretty much everywhere sensationalize the products while making constant attempts at selling another product which does almost the same (I am referring more specifically to the polishing products in the system). My biggest problem is of course, the CONFUSION that comes from all of these descriptions that appear more like a big sales pitch.



To conclude the rant I want to say that I do not intend to attack Sal personally, or the products he makes, specially since I have only used some of them and for a very short period. After finally talking to him he seemed nice on the phone and took the time to explain most things (albeit, my confusion with the product line still remained on the phone). I am new to detailing, and I am just at the bottom of the seemingly steep learning curve, but all of my judgement in this rant is made out of plain common sense and observation. I felt I needed to express my frustration (what better place to do it?), and maybe get some feedback from the community.





✚Back to my issue: The paint on the hood (where I seem to be finding most of the Z-AIO and Z-CS durability problems: no beading instead the water sheets down sloooowwwwly after just a few days from sealer application) is still in fairly good shape IMO. Sure, there are couple of very small but deep nicks from stones, a few small scratches, and light pre-existing swirls from the previous owner which I am afraid to tackle on my own still (not sure what product to use and the application technique), but even in this condition the clear coat still can be brought to a great shine, the color is even, deep and without any weird color inconsistencies or oxidation (that's with my untrained eye). Right after I bought the car I went over it with clay, the paint on the hood felt very smooth and clean, I did not have to do much rubbing with the clay.

So, is it bad paint or not?! Only a pro will be able to tell me I guess...



It is still puzzling to me that the oh-so-important beading effect of Zaino wears off the hood (and the front fenders) in about a week. On the rest of the car it seems to have inconsistent durability, but overall it seems to be sticking to the paint better. I thought maybe heat from the engine had some kind of effect on Z-AIO and Z-CS that I applied on the hood, but I realized that even after long drives the hood does not get very hot at all.
 
✔ In another attempt to find a potential cause to this durability issue I stopped using the cheap soap I had (see image below) and got me a bottle of Optimum Car wash, definitely a difference I can SEE, FEEL and SMELL! I love it. I am hoping that maybe the soap I was using was a bit too rough on the Zaino coatings I have been applying.



turtle_wax_f21_car_wash_T146R.jpg






✔ I also received the Collinite Double Coat which I kinda rushed onto that hood at the very end of the daylight hours yesterday. I took Optimum and washed the hood which already had a two week old layer of Z-AIO and Z-CS and just applied the Collinite on top. This wax is pretty hard (like candle wax almost!) which kinda had me guessing. I used a cotton pad (i did not have a spare foam pad!) and applied the wax by hand, but I wasn't sure how much I should apply, specially since it was hard to get it out of the container because of its hard consistency. When I would apply it on the hood it was hard to see it (unlike a soft carnauba wax which you can see easily because it is more like a CREAM)... So I was unsure as to how much to put on the pad! I basically just rubbed the pad pretty hard on top of the wax and then went to the hood trying to get a pretty thick and even coat all over the hood only. Unfortunately as I was finishing the application of the wax it started to get dark. I saw very little hazing of the wax (probably due to high humidity again!!! Makes me so mad) so before it got dark I had to remove it. I gave it maybe 30 minutes to dry... I hope it was enough.



Today it may be a bit more dry outside and I just picked up more foam pads...

Should I do a second coat today just in case humidity ruined the drying process of yesterday's application of Collinite?

Would you recommend blowing a little bit of hot air over the wax to make it a bit softer and easier to pick up from the container? Or is the layer of wax I should be applying thin enough that you can barely see it until it finally dries?



Thank you all for your continued support and answers!
 
Hard waxes are very easy to work with. I really don't know what is so difficult. It's not personal towards you Bis, I'm just generalizing.



For me, common sense rules. When I see that people somehow want to take/scrape a 3D physical bit of a hard paste wax out a container I always wonder... I saw people scoop out wax of the tin with a little spoon, trying to spread the clump on the towel/applicator, and they clumsily tried to créme the surface of the vehicle, giving it "complete coverage". Hey, it's waxing, not applying a sort of cucumber facial mask!



Bis, take your applicator or towel, lightly swirl it around on the surface of the wax. That's it. You'll see a fine layer of liquified wax on the surface of the media. That's usually enough for a panel, even for newbs. To see how much wax you got on the app, try to scrape it back with the back of a knife. Be mindful that the remaining wax in the app is still enough for a smaller panel! Remember what Accumulator said: feel the app gliding on the surface = depositing wax onto it. When an applicator dries, it will grab, and can curl up in no time under your fingers. It's not necessary to see a pronounced trace on the surface, just a very faint, thin whisper. With the Collinite, wait couple of minutes, but certainly not 30, and remove. Certain waxes can dry very hard after setting, making them difficult to remove. Remember, any abrasion, yes, including wax removal with a towel can damage paint finishes, so a light, easy removal is key. As Collinite states on the tin: remove before the wax fully dries. Setting can be longer in high humidity, but don't let the wax dry out on the surface.



How's that with the apps? You didn't have a spare app? Tossed them?
 
Don't overthink this. Easier said than done, I've been there. :)



Zaino, like every manufacturer/distributor on the planet, "markets" multiple products to customers. There is always product overlap. They want to appeal to all customers desires/needs and perceptions. It's not always black and white for them to tell you which product is best for you. Ideally, they would like to sell them all to you. That's true for every retailer. No harm there.



As a long time user of Zaino products let me try to explain.

Z5 has fillers, it can hide a very small amount of imperfections in the paint. These fillers though, do reduce the ability of Z5 to reach the gloss level of Z2. It' can't be optically clear or it wouldn't hide the defects. That's the difference between Z5 and Z2. To be honest, the difference is very, very slight and most can't tell at all.



You do not have to use these products together. Z5 is only recommended for dark cars because it helps hide the imprefections that are more easily seen on dark paint. If you have a dark colored paint with no defects then just use Z2. The right answer here, IMO, is to prep your paint properly and remove all imperfections first, then there is no need for Z5. I don't use it. And as mentioned, the hiding capabilities (like most other brands) is limited.



Z2 is clear. It has no fillers. It has the highest gloss of any Zaino product.



Now you mention that after a few days/weeks you lose beading from AIO? I think you found your own problem there. PLEASE, you owe it to yourself to use the proper car wash. Z7 car wash was designed to be used with Zaino products. It has the right Ph levels, cleaning strength and formula to really augment the shine and slickness of the surface. Using Z7 will actually boost your results and maintain the gloss and protection over time. If you are not using Z2 you are missing a big step. I've experimented with this a lot. It makes a difference.



I see from a recent post that now you are layering waxes on top of the Zaino. The ONLY reason to do this is for some perceived difference in 'look'. You do know that you are now 'mucking up' the recipe here, so to speak. (No worries, I have experimented in the past as well. So it's ok to get it out of your system. :)) Now whatever you add on top is affecting the Zaino. The top layer, now becomes the one you have to maintain and is the one you must criticize for gloss, durability, beading, etc. And the car wash you use must compliment the top wax.



What is your ultimate goal?
 
Bence- Ya know...I let 476S set up until it passes the finger-swipe test and it comes off easy as can be. I used to do that "before it dries" but I get better durability this way.



Bis- Make sure you dampen the applicator with a *little* water, makes the 476S go easier. And yeah, use *MUCH* less than you think you need to. That can oughta last you at least five years even if you redo your van all the time (really oughta last you much longer than that).



Don't put on another layer of 476S yet, most likely it'd just cause pseudo-holograms from solvent action, and oh brother you don't want to deal with those :grinno:
 
Bence said:
Hard waxes are very easy to work with. I really don't know what is so difficult. It's not personal towards you Bis, I'm just generalizing.



For me, common sense rules. When I see that people somehow want to take/scrape a 3D physical bit of a hard paste wax out a container I always wonder... I saw people scoop out wax of the tin with a little spoon, trying to spread the clump on the towel/applicator, and they clumsily tried to créme the surface of the vehicle, giving it "complete coverage". Hey, it's waxing, not applying a sort of cucumber facial mask!



Bis, take your applicator or towel, lightly swirl it around on the surface of the wax. That's it. You'll see a fine layer of liquified wax on the surface of the media. That's usually enough for a panel, even for newbs. To see how much wax you got on the app, try to scrape it back with the back of a knife. Be mindful that the remaining wax in the app is still enough for a smaller panel! Remember what Accumulator said: feel the app gliding on the surface = depositing wax onto it. When an applicator dries, it will grab, and can curl up in no tim under your fingers. It's not necessary to see a pronounced trace on the surface, just a very faint, thin whisper. With the Collinite, wait couple of minutes, but certainly not 30, and remove. Certain waxes can dry very hard after setting, making them difficult to remove. Remember, any abrasion, yes, including wax removal with a towel can damage paint finishes, so a light, easy removal is key. As Collinite states on the tin: remove before the wax fully dries. Setting can be longer in high humidity, but don't let the wax dry out on the surface.



How's that with the apps? You didn't have a spare app? Tossed them?





Bence, thank you for your advice, you post is so well written.



I finished applying Collinite all over the car yesterday with NEW foam apps (I gotta stock up on them!), and found out what you just explained to me. I was applying TOO much the day before, and again, a huge part of why it seemed like I didn't have enough on the pad is because I was using a cotton applicator (The other two foam apps I had are dedicated for ZAIO and Z-CS). I don't even know why cotton applicators are made, foam rules every time it seems! :0)



RESULTS FROM YESTERDAY: I worked by panel, applying wax to small sections (say the upper part of a door, or half of the hood) and then immediately removing it. It was still very humid outside. Even by doing small panels like this, the wax seemed to be drying very quickly. But I think it worked out well in the end. I had to put some muscle into it, but not to the point I felt I could be harming the paint by rubbing too hard.



The beading action of this wax seems even better than when I first applied ZAINO. It is extreme. Gloss on my paint is also comparable to Zaino-CS, maybe better and color depth seems much better than with Zaino. It seems to make the paint look darker?



Now its all up to durability. If the beading ability of this wax wears off quickly I won't know what to do next lol.
 
Brad B. said:
Don't overthink this. Easier said than done, I've been there. :)



Zaino, like every manufacturer/distributor on the planet, "markets" multiple products to customers. There is always product overlap. They want to appeal to all customers desires/needs and perceptions. It's not always black and white for them to tell you which product is best for you. Ideally, they would like to sell them all to you. That's true for every retailer. No harm there.



As a long time user of Zaino products let me try to explain.

Z5 has fillers, it can hide a very small amount of imperfections in the paint. These fillers though, do reduce the ability of Z5 to reach the gloss level of Z2. It' can't be optically clear or it wouldn't hide the defects. That's the difference between Z5 and Z2. To be honest, the difference is very, very slight and most can't tell at all.



You do not have to use these products together. Z5 is only recommended for dark cars because it helps hide the imprefections that are more easily seen on dark paint. If you have a dark colored paint with no defects then just use Z2. The right answer here, IMO, is to prep your paint properly and remove all imperfections first, then there is no need for Z5. I don't use it. And as mentioned, the hiding capabilities (like most other brands) is limited.



Z2 is clear. It has no fillers. It has the highest gloss of any Zaino product.



Now you mention that after a few days/weeks you lose beading from AIO? I think you found your own problem there. PLEASE, you owe it to yourself to use the proper car wash. Z7 car wash was designed to be used with Zaino products. It has the right Ph levels, cleaning strength and formula to really augment the shine and slickness of the surface. Using Z7 will actually boost your results and maintain the gloss and protection over time. If you are not using Z2 you are missing a big step. I've experimented with this a lot. It makes a difference.



I see from a recent post that now you are layering waxes on top of the Zaino. The ONLY reason to do this is for some perceived difference in 'look'. You do know that you are now 'mucking up' the recipe here, so to speak. (No worries, I have experimented in the past as well. So it's ok to get it out of your system. :)) Now whatever you add on top is affecting the Zaino. The top layer, now becomes the one you have to maintain and is the one you must criticize for gloss, durability, beading, etc. And the car wash you use must compliment the top wax.



What is your ultimate goal?



I love your description of Zaino products, Brad, if their website was written by you, they would probably sell just as much, but there would be no confusion.



After reading your post I wish I would have made the investment on Z2 and the Zaino Wash, but at the time it just seemed like "The Triplets" were a well rounded combo for my goals (and according to the website you could achieve incredible results just from that), then you find out you need to use their wash to keep the layers alive and Z2 to achieve maximum gloss?!! Not only is this expensive, but in some ways misleading, and again, very confusing for somebody that has never used their products. Spending $100+ dollars on products in one purchase



My goals:

• Protection for the cheap paint job on my car which will last | (an effect of this protection is beading ability?)

• Beauty (The paint on my car still has a decent clear coat which reflects nicely, I love a car that reflects like a mirror and looks "wet"). Z-8 Does this really well!

• Durability: My time is limited and I can only wash my DD non-garage kept van once every 2 weeks or so. using products that look good and protect for a long time is key since applying waxes, sealers and all this takes a lot more time. Ideally I would love to do 2 applications of wax/sealer per year and then just wash the car as often as I can.

• If I can hide some of the existing scratches and blemishes than great!



It is a shame that I started a new wash at the same time I started the wax. I did not give Zaino a chance maybe (that is if the soap I used before was REALLY stripping it). Maybe next spring I'll strip the coatings and start all over again with Zaino.



It is said that Z-CS can be topped with other products, so I figured that as long as I am not damaging the Zaino coats that remain under (protection-wize) than I would be ok. I do understand that whatever is on TOP handles the beading and looks part, but again, having a layer of sealant under (even if it was partially removed by the wash) did not seem like a bad idea to me (please correct me if I am wrong).







• Should I try Z-8 on top of Collinite wax from time to time to achieve even more shine?



• Could I use Z-AOI to strip the Collinite wax next spring? Is its cleaning effect not powerful enough for that?





Thanks again
 
Accumulator said:
Don't put on another layer of 476S yet, most likely it'd just cause pseudo-holograms from solvent action, and oh brother you don't want to deal with those :grinno:



What are those????!!! :nervous:
 
Bis said:
What are those????!!! :nervous:



Just what they sound like- a weird effect that looks very much like rotary-induced holograms. But instead of being *real* holgrams (marring in the paint) they're weird flaws in the wax's finish. Wait at least a week before doing another coat of 476S.
 
Accumulator, yep I do a swipe test too, but I meant a totally dry, dusty heavy wax layer.



The chance of appearing pseudo-holos can be lessened, when you wipe the finish 1-3 hours after application (in a dust-controlled environment of course) with a new, clean MF. I had terrible pseudos when I saturated my MF with the wax residue, so when I switched to one clean towel side per panel, the issue was almost totally gone. Otherwise I agree with a couple of days pause.



Bis, yes you can apply Z8 on top of the 476. The Colli contains enough synthetics, that you don't have to worry about bonding issues. And, 476's layer is more substantial than Z-CS, and it will protect WAY better.



Yes, the Colli darkens a bit, and has a very impressive water management characteristics which is certainly better than Z-CS. When you perceive a change in color depth, your eyes now know the difference between a relatively sterile look of a pure synthetic LSP vs. a carnauba blend.



Not only foam apps are good, you can try MF apps as well, which are suited better to certain products. Wash'em all very thoroughly and they will last a long time.



In humid weather conditions you can leave the LSPs on the surface longer, because humidity slows down the setting/hazing process. Just don't let a heavy wax dry onto the surface. The swipe test Accumulator mentioned is a simple step to check the wax layer if it was ready for removal. Just swipe the wax layer with your finger. If the wax film removes without any smearing and you see a clean surface, the wax is ready. When the area is smeary under your finger, just wait a bit longer. You can do it with a MF towel too, but the MF removes the wax better than human skin, so the results can be skewed.
 
Bis said:
My goals:

• Protection for the cheap paint job on my car which will last | (an effect of this protection is beading ability?)



Bis, how water acts on top of a surface that has an LSP on it is a good indication that the LSP is physically *there*, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's providing any sort of substantial environmental protection. Let's see if I can attempt to explain this a bit. Let's say you go out and put a layer of Saran Wrap on your car. Sure, you can see that it's there, but how well is it actually *protecting* the paint? Not very well at all. All LSP's are *not* created equal in this regard; just because they are *there* doesn't mean that they're doing much other than looking nice. Some LSP's provide greater protection (and ease of cleaning) than others. Some look very nice, last a long time, but don't do much in regards to protecting your paint from the elements. At the risk of starting a flame fest (every time someone questions Zaino as being anything other than the epitome of THE BEST lsp out there, it's bound to start a war, but anyway....), Zaino LOOKS very good. And it keeps it's look a long, long time. HOWEVER, it's not one of the best at actually providing real environmental protection. I love Zaino on garage queen show cars. It looks great. But on a daily driver that sees a lot of road use, stays in the driveway, gets rained on, bird poop, etc., it would be my very last choice of lsp's. The idea of putting Zaino on top of Collinite is a very good one. You're getting the best of both worlds; Collinite provides outstanding environmental protection, and the Zaino looks awesome. Now let's see how long it takes before a Zainoite chimes in with how well Zaino protects his car from nuclear fall out. ;) Where's that "stir the pot" emoticon when I need it?



Bence said:
And, 476's layer is more substantial than Z-CS, and it will protect WAY better.



You can take that statement to the bank.... well, as long as it's not B of A.
 
Wow I just detailed my car with Z-2 for the first time in years. Wanted to try something different. But it sounds like I need to put a coat of POXY on there for protection. ????? What you top it with ?????
 
If protection is the ultimate goal, then I'd just use an LSP that provides that. No layering various different things, no wondering if something's really protected, none of that [stuff]. I'd just use 476S, KSG, or FK1000P and be done with it (for months on end).



Eh...two coats of FK1000P, about a week or two apart. Then just wash it for a long, long time with a spritz of FK425 or FK146 while drying. Issue solved, vehicle protected and looking good. And yeah, it works great on not-so-swell paint, keeps my beater-Tahoe looking better than that thing oughta look.
 
Accumulator, that's for sure the ideal suggestion, but I think the OP is excited to use his new Zaino products... which is great, as long as he's aware that there are things he can do to enjoy the look of Zaino while increasing it's somewhat lacking protection abilities.
 
SuperBee364 said:
Accumulator, that's for sure the ideal suggestion, but I think the OP is excited to use his new Zaino products...



Oops, yeah...I got a bit carried away, knee-jerking to that whole "top with this or that" thing :o
 
SuperBee364 said:
Bis, how water acts on top of a surface that has an LSP on it is a good indication that the LSP is physically *there*, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's providing any sort of substantial environmental protection. Let's see if I can attempt to explain this a bit. Let's say you go out and put a layer of Saran Wrap on your car. Sure, you can see that it's there, but how well is it actually *protecting* the paint? Not very well at all. All LSP's are *not* created equal in this regard; just because they are *there* doesn't mean that they're doing much other than looking nice. Some LSP's provide greater protection (and ease of cleaning) than others. Some look very nice, last a long time, but don't do much in regards to protecting your paint from the elements. At the risk of starting a flame fest (every time someone questions Zaino as being anything other than the epitome of THE BEST lsp out there, it's bound to start a war, but anyway....), Zaino LOOKS very good. And it keeps it's look a long, long time. HOWEVER, it's not one of the best at actually providing real environmental protection. I love Zaino on garage queen show cars. It looks great. But on a daily driver that sees a lot of road use, stays in the driveway, gets rained on, bird poop, etc., it would be my very last choice of lsp's. The idea of putting Zaino on top of Collinite is a very good one. You're getting the best of both worlds; Collinite provides outstanding environmental protection, and the Zaino looks awesome. Now let's see how long it takes before a Zainoite chimes in with how well Zaino protects his car from nuclear fall out. ;) Where's that "stir the pot" emoticon when I need it?



You can take that statement to the bank.... well, as long as it's not B of A.



Indeed SuperBee. That makes a lot of sense. Zaino advertises its products as having UV-40 protection, whatever. I've studied their website and spoken to their creator (as I posted previously) and the feeling I get from all of it now after using the products is not very good. A lot of what people are saying is also supporting my findings which is a shame because I spent a lot of money in the products, and I fear that they are inferior to the new options that I've come to find from you guys as of late.



Only time will tell how this Collinite stuff will do over time, but I can already tell several improvements. For one I saved time by just applying one product (not 3: Z-AIO, Z-CS, and Z-8). I am going to apply Z-8 on top of Collinite just to see what kind of improvements I get, but really, I don't need much more than what I've got from Collinite. Car looks nice enough and according to most of you it serves as great environmental protection. Done deal for me.



I will follow up in regards to durability of Collinite. And to avoid wasting/throwing away the remaining Zaino (pretty much all of it) I will continue to use it here and there along with Collinite. I'll put on a coat of Z-8 on top of collinite tomorrow. That alone might become my new regime of care for the vehicle.






Below: The video I recorded yesterday about the hood, Zaino and Collinite.






Some Pics of trouble spots on the beloved Astro hood...



DSCF4913.JPG


More here: https://picasaweb.google.com/bismai...&authkey=Gv1sRgCKu686rCwPKeeA&feat=directlink





Some Pics of the van after I finished it with Collinite.

DSCF4942.JPG


DSCF4940.JPG


DSCF4944.JPG


DSCF4945.JPG






More here: https://picasaweb.google.com/bismai...&authkey=Gv1sRgCKu686rCwPKeeA&feat=directlink
 
Bis said:
Indeed SuperBee. That makes a lot of sense. Zaino advertises its products as having UV-40 protection, whatever. I've studied their website and spoken to their creator (as I posted previously) and the feeling I get from all of it now after using the products is not very good.



Actually Sal very graciously advertises Zaino as a "show car polish" and at that it excels. Truth in advertising!
 
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