Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
TH0001 said:
True that...and not just about detailing.
New M105 is kicking but w/ KB method
- Thread starter gmblack3
- Start date
True that...and not just about detailing.
SuperBee364
New member
gmblack3a said:
Thanks for that, Bryan. I'm kind of surprised that the 6" pad is small enough. Conventional wisdom used to be that you needed as small of a pad as you could get for max correction on a PC. I used to use those 4 (or was it 4.5?) inch LC foam pads when I was correcting with a PC. The bigger pads just caused the PC to bog down.
One last question....Is the KB method OK to use with the original formula 105? I have some of the new stuff on order, but I'd like to use up my old stuff if it'll work.
EBPcivicsi
GOT PREP?
Scottwax said:
Try using a stiffer pad, or with a finishing pad on a DA slow the speed down to say 4 and use very little pressure. We are talking about micromarring with the DA right? For some soft paints it can be very tricky (at first) finishing down with a DA.
I also find that FPII can work really well in these instances...
ebpcivicsi said:
The best I've found at avoiding or minimizing the micromarring with the DA is Pink Moose and a finishing pad. Still, it can be a problem on cars with soft black paint like 335's and G35's.
I still think you can get a higher gloss via rotary, so I think the KBM followed by a finishing polish and pad combo that doesn't hologram (when used properly, of course!) will still give you a better look than finishing with the DA.
Accumulator
Well-known member
Scottwax said:
Did you find that to be the case when you were using the Cyclo as your DA?
It might be a matter of the paint or some other variable, but I definitely don't see a diminishing of gloss when I follow my rotary work with the Cyclo.
When KB is ready to release the "paper" on his method, I am pretty sure that all of your questions will be answered.
As far as removing excessive clear, my PTG shows nothing excessive when using the KBM.
I took some time today during the detail of this M35 that I am working on to shoot some HD video. It could be a week before I post it as I need to finish this car and other commitments (FT job.) Plus I have not used a video editing software in some time.
As far as removing excessive clear, my PTG shows nothing excessive when using the KBM.
I took some time today during the detail of this M35 that I am working on to shoot some HD video. It could be a week before I post it as I need to finish this car and other commitments (FT job.) Plus I have not used a video editing software in some time.
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
SuperBee364 said:
The action of the non-diminshing abrasives (as the pad holds them) is far more dependent on pressure then rotation. In fact speed 4-5 with a 6 inch pad will often produce better results (the polish doesn't dry up as quick allowing for more cutting over time) then on speed 6. According to Kevin (and he broke it down very scientifically) you only need about 2-5 rotations of the pad per minute.
So while a smaller pad will free up some of the lost power of the PC, it may be counter productive (that said I use a 4 inch pad and knock the speed back .5 of a click for tight areas).
The new M105 will produce less overall cut and the old M105 is more dependent on proper cleaning and primming. I have both versions and find the new M105 (even with less cut) is just easier to use, even if you have to use it longer. That said, if you learn the process with the old M105, you will be way up on the game when you get the new stuff. (I still use the old for very pad paints).
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
Accumulator said:
I tend to agree with Scott. While M205 on a DA works awesome, I feel I can see a difference in finishing with a rotary properly. Who really knows, maybe we are all crazy!
SuperBee364
New member
Todd and Bryan...
Thanks very much for taking the time to share your technique (or KB's, as the case may be) with us. Man... it's gonna be an exciting detailing season thanks to you guys, KB, and (I still can't believe I'm saying this), Meguiars.
Thanks very much for taking the time to share your technique (or KB's, as the case may be) with us. Man... it's gonna be an exciting detailing season thanks to you guys, KB, and (I still can't believe I'm saying this), Meguiars.
PorscheGuy997
New member
TH0001 said:
Very true. I bought three gallons of the old M105 because I can get more cut with it.
I will pull one sentence from Kevin's paper. "The abrasive in M105 relies on its lubricants to deliver stellar finishing results."
That basically explains the problems with "flashing" some encountered.
If you are having trouble with the either formula of M105, I suggest you pick up some M86. It won't cut as much, but it's incredibly easy to use once the pad is primed.
imported_Detailing Technology
New member
Any ETA on the process document?
SuperBee364
New member
Good to know. I think I'll keep my old 105, then. I just got an order from ADS today. Over the weekend, their web site showed that the only M105 they had in stock were the small 12 oz. sample sizes. The sticker on the bottle shows that it's the old formula. Thought I'd let you guys know in case you want to snap up some of the old formula. I don't know for sure, though... it could just be that Rick hasn't updated the stickers he's putting on the sample bottles, so it *could* be new formula with old stickers.
He has the quart and gallon sizes of the new 105 in stock now. His gallon price is the best I have found anywhere. Actually, that applies to 105 and 205.
He has the quart and gallon sizes of the new 105 in stock now. His gallon price is the best I have found anywhere. Actually, that applies to 105 and 205.
Kevin Brown
New member
Wow.
There certainly is a lot of interest here!
Thanks for holding down the fort for me, guys.
I am still working on the finishing touches, but I promise that the 'paper' is just about ready. I am concerned that there is a bit of hype with the whole deal, as several of the autopians chiming in here have already explained how they are getting great results using the random-orbital with M105 (original and new formulas). Fact is, if an enthusiast takes the time to just use the product and try their own different methods, outstanding results are bound to be revealed. Remember, I am not a scientist nor a chemist. I am a detailer, just like many of you.
Basically, most all the information is already out. The 'paper' is more of an explanation as to why I think this works so well, and my thought process to support it. I suppose it was written with a younger Kevin Brown in mind, as I remember how frustrated I would get when I was told to 'do it this way', without the reasoning behind it.
So, while a portion of the paper is about how to use the R/O with Meguiar's M105 or M86, most of it is chatter regarding how to achieve the best results when using a random-orbital in general. Further, I am trying to keep the graphics and pictures to a minimum, as there are already dozens of them available on the forums (plus they take a long time to create!)
Case in point:
A portion of the paper:
THE RANDOM-ORBITAL’S SUSPENSION SYSTEM
A suspension system controls random movements of the pad.
The buffing pad attached to a random-orbital polisher is expected to respond to directional changes and user-controlled adjustments, accurately and immediately.
It must also evenly distribute downward pressure while resisting flex, twist, and flutter.
Finally, the pad is expected to polish a paint surface satisfactorily.
A suspension system can help to control movements and deliver consistent results.
Fortunately, one is already in place.
Compared to a spring and damper suspension as used on a typical automobile:
The buffing pad has a built-in spring, by design.
Therefore, the buffing pad acts as the spring of the suspension.
User interaction controls the amount pressure placed upon the pad, reactions to mechanical obstacles, and surface effects.
Therefore, the user acts as the damping mechanism.
The backing plate mechanically ties the pad to the machine, and transfers the machine’s movement to the pad.
It also acts as a level mounting point for the pad (and limits pad flex).
Therefore, the backing plate acts as the frame of the suspension.
Not earth shattering information. Yet, most of us do not take the time to contemplate what we are actually doing when we polish and how it relates to other things in our world. Instead, we let our brain take us through the motions. Generally, this is the best way to get immediate results.
My goal was to write a paper that could answer all the questions I could think of about random-orbital use, or at least what I believe to be the important stuff. Hopefully, if a question in one's mind arises during the reading of the paper, the answer will be in that portion of the paper (skimming through the paper rapidly is not the best way to take the information in). If the reader takes the time to read a segment then visualize the information prior to moving on, the information will make sense.
Anyway, I appreciate the patience and I apologize for the delay, but I can only work on the paper late at night and very early in the morning. I send the updated content to a few friends, get their opinions, and make final adjustments as needed.
Time to post?
Well, I have to modify a backing plate to hold some pencil tips, take some pictures of the machine action at low and high speed-settings, then add them to the paper. I have one or two more graphics to make (not a lot of time to make those), plus snap a few photos. Then, these new visuals need to be placed in the correct location on the paper. Adding photos and graphics that are not needed just mess things up. There's about twenty or so modifications to make to content, and then a final proofread by three or four friends. Then... it gets posted and will be made available as a .pdf file.
I would say I am looking at a week to ten days to get through all the steps.
THANKS AGAIN TO ALL THE AUTOPIANS FOR HELPING OUT!! :bow
There certainly is a lot of interest here!
Thanks for holding down the fort for me, guys.
I am still working on the finishing touches, but I promise that the 'paper' is just about ready. I am concerned that there is a bit of hype with the whole deal, as several of the autopians chiming in here have already explained how they are getting great results using the random-orbital with M105 (original and new formulas). Fact is, if an enthusiast takes the time to just use the product and try their own different methods, outstanding results are bound to be revealed. Remember, I am not a scientist nor a chemist. I am a detailer, just like many of you.
Basically, most all the information is already out. The 'paper' is more of an explanation as to why I think this works so well, and my thought process to support it. I suppose it was written with a younger Kevin Brown in mind, as I remember how frustrated I would get when I was told to 'do it this way', without the reasoning behind it.
So, while a portion of the paper is about how to use the R/O with Meguiar's M105 or M86, most of it is chatter regarding how to achieve the best results when using a random-orbital in general. Further, I am trying to keep the graphics and pictures to a minimum, as there are already dozens of them available on the forums (plus they take a long time to create!)
Case in point:
A portion of the paper:
THE RANDOM-ORBITAL’S SUSPENSION SYSTEM
A suspension system controls random movements of the pad.
The buffing pad attached to a random-orbital polisher is expected to respond to directional changes and user-controlled adjustments, accurately and immediately.
It must also evenly distribute downward pressure while resisting flex, twist, and flutter.
Finally, the pad is expected to polish a paint surface satisfactorily.
A suspension system can help to control movements and deliver consistent results.
Fortunately, one is already in place.
Compared to a spring and damper suspension as used on a typical automobile:
The buffing pad has a built-in spring, by design.
Therefore, the buffing pad acts as the spring of the suspension.
User interaction controls the amount pressure placed upon the pad, reactions to mechanical obstacles, and surface effects.
Therefore, the user acts as the damping mechanism.
The backing plate mechanically ties the pad to the machine, and transfers the machine’s movement to the pad.
It also acts as a level mounting point for the pad (and limits pad flex).
Therefore, the backing plate acts as the frame of the suspension.
Not earth shattering information. Yet, most of us do not take the time to contemplate what we are actually doing when we polish and how it relates to other things in our world. Instead, we let our brain take us through the motions. Generally, this is the best way to get immediate results.
My goal was to write a paper that could answer all the questions I could think of about random-orbital use, or at least what I believe to be the important stuff. Hopefully, if a question in one's mind arises during the reading of the paper, the answer will be in that portion of the paper (skimming through the paper rapidly is not the best way to take the information in). If the reader takes the time to read a segment then visualize the information prior to moving on, the information will make sense.
Anyway, I appreciate the patience and I apologize for the delay, but I can only work on the paper late at night and very early in the morning. I send the updated content to a few friends, get their opinions, and make final adjustments as needed.
Time to post?
Well, I have to modify a backing plate to hold some pencil tips, take some pictures of the machine action at low and high speed-settings, then add them to the paper. I have one or two more graphics to make (not a lot of time to make those), plus snap a few photos. Then, these new visuals need to be placed in the correct location on the paper. Adding photos and graphics that are not needed just mess things up. There's about twenty or so modifications to make to content, and then a final proofread by three or four friends. Then... it gets posted and will be made available as a .pdf file.
I would say I am looking at a week to ten days to get through all the steps.
THANKS AGAIN TO ALL THE AUTOPIANS FOR HELPING OUT!! :bow
Accumulator
Well-known member
Kevin Brown- That little teaser/sample of what you're putting together is very impressive! Heh heh, you're apologizing for taking so long, but (as a retired teacher who put together such presentations) I'm thinking "sheesh, what a load of work *that* must be". And I really like the way you're thinking your way through this (the "to a young Kevin Brown" idea, etc.).
Heh heh#2, no kidding that "skimming through the paper rapidly is not the best way to take the information in"!
Thanks in advance for all your work on this.
Well, there are a whole lotta variable in play here, *AND* that "finishing out properly" is in itself a biggie for those of us who aren't rotary-meisters.
I, for example, simply will never do enough polishing in this lifetime to attain the skill level of some of you guys anyhow so I guess it's good that I'm happy with my Cyclo results. (I really *don't* see a decrease in gloss though
but that's on the Audis/GM with hard clear and lots of burnishing.)
Heh heh#2, no kidding that "skimming through the paper rapidly is not the best way to take the information in"!
Thanks in advance for all your work on this.
TH0001 said:
Well, there are a whole lotta variable in play here, *AND* that "finishing out properly" is in itself a biggie for those of us who aren't rotary-meisters.
I, for example, simply will never do enough polishing in this lifetime to attain the skill level of some of you guys anyhow so I guess it's good that I'm happy with my Cyclo results. (I really *don't* see a decrease in gloss though
but that's on the Audis/GM with hard clear and lots of burnishing.)imported_Denzil
New member
Wow, definitely can't wait for the finished paper. It looks very promising and informational.
After reading more of what Kevin has posted here. I think I am apply too much pressure, so I backed off a bit to let the pad spin and it appears I have less marring.
After talking to Todd, I realized I was applying so much pressure that not only was I stopping the rotation of the pad, it was spinning backwards. Heck I even think my PC starting talking to me like a Led Zeppelin record spinning backwards... :soscared:
After talking to Todd, I realized I was applying so much pressure that not only was I stopping the rotation of the pad, it was spinning backwards. Heck I even think my PC starting talking to me like a Led Zeppelin record spinning backwards... :soscared:
Accumulator
Well-known member
Scottwax said:
Well, I certainly *can* imagine that with the green pads. Even the Cyclo white pads are a bit aggressive for so-called "finishing pads" and I sometimes use softer ones even on the Audis. Yeah...I can see just so many variables here. Back when the green pads were all they made for the Cyclo you could only get things to a certain level with it.
The way rotary finishing with Ultrafina has worked for you almost tempts me to try it
gmblack3a said:
What size pads were you using on the PC for that? Even the rule-of-thumb 20 lbs. of pressure can seem a bit much with larger pads.
SuperBee364
New member
Accumulator said:Well, I certainly *can* imagine that with the green pads. Even the Cyclo white pads are a bit aggressive for so-called "finishing pads" and I sometimes use softer ones even on the Audis. Yeah...I can see just so many variables here. Back when the green pads were all they made for the Cyclo you could only get things to a certain level with it.
The way rotary finishing with Ultrafina has worked for you almost tempts me to try it
Accumulator, my good man, you still haven't tried UF and a rotary?? Don't make me fly out there to Ohio....:waxing: