New Blackfire Polish

Spilchy said:
What's up with the warning? "Do not use on pre-2005, conventional clear coats."



If this is so mild, why can't you use it with a finishing pad?
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I'm with you man! There's something that just doesn't seem "right" with these goods and their description. :nervous:
 
Spilchy said:
What's up with the warning? "Do not use on pre-2005, conventional clear coats."



If this is so mild, why can't you use it with a finishing pad?
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Yeah, there seem to be some concerns/questions surrounding these new products. I might shoot an email over to CMA today to try to get some answers.
 
I'm not sure why you guys smell a conspiracy here, I think it's just marketing. How many other polishes/products aren't sold in bulk? Sonus, Zaino, etc. CMA is certainly known for their "J. Peterman" product descriptions--and their target market isn't pro detailers or weekend warriors who want to buy in bulk, but the enthusiast who only works on his own car, and wants to be wooed by the mystique of the product. They are trying to sell these polishes in an exclusive manner to the buyer that has an exclusive Ceramiclear vehicle, at an exclusive price. End of story.
 
I remember when 85 was introduced I did not buy it because of the warning..then others tried, so I did too. I believe the warning comes from the factory and that has to be passed along...remember this country sues for everything.

From what I understand...rumors, facts, misquotes...etc...The polish is 106 with ingredients to stay wetter longer. The compound is an easier to use PowerGlos.

I have it ordered so maybe I will be able to test next week.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I'm not sure why you guys smell a conspiracy here, I think it's just marketing. How many other polishes/products aren't sold in bulk? Sonus, Zaino, etc. CMA is certainly known for their "J. Peterman" product descriptions--and their target market isn't pro detailers or weekend warriors who want to buy in bulk, but the enthusiast who only works on his own car, and wants to be wooed by the mystique of the product. They are trying to sell these polishes in an exclusive manner to the buyer that has an exclusive Ceramiclear vehicle, at an exclusive price. End of story.
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I don't see conspiracy but if these products aren't safe for traditional CC paint then they wont sell much of it. Joe Consumer isn't going to use it properly and the results wont be so great. Seems to me that something that is so aggressive wouldn't have the ability to be applied by hand, no?
 
SpoiledMan said:
Seems to me that something that is so aggressive wouldn't have the ability to be applied by hand, no?
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No. There is a difference between the hardness of the abrasive and the size of the abrasive. A polish should have a finer abrasive than a compound. I can make this point more clearly by talking about industrial abrasives used for metals, because I know the names of the abrasives used (as opposed to what is in car polishes). Common industrial abrasives are aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, and diamond. Any/all of those are available in coarse to fine grits (the size of the abrasive). Further differentiation can be made as to the uniformity of the grit, meaning how close to the same size are all the abrasive particles? That's part of the difference between Unigrit wetsand paper and regular silicon carbide wetsanding paper. But the hardness of the abrasive determines how long it will stay sharp and continue cutting, or be dulled (like the breaking down of the diminishing abrasive in a car polish). Diamond will last the longest.



So, back to our Menzerna polishes--if the cerium(?) oxide is really hard, in comparison to regular polish abrasives, it will cut more effectively for a lot longer, even though the "grit" of it may be no more "agressive" than a traditional polish. That would mean that you may be able to remove a lot more clear than you would with a traditional polish.



Another analogy might be that a coated cutting tool isn't any sharper than a non-coated one, but it may retain the sharpness of the edge longer, meaning it can do more work.
 
I have a feeling that the quality control of attaining the best grade abrasive and making sure the abrasives are consistently uniform in size batch after batch all contribute to the expensive of the final product.
 
Mike, we missed each other. What I'm referring to is the CMA description that says that it's not suitable for traditional CC paint but then they go on to show hand application of the product. This would have to break the laws of physics to be so abrasive that it's not OK for regular paint but is usable by hand.
 
I think we are all digging a bit deep here, so let me give you my perspective.





This is a simple comparison, no bashing, just a well-known company to make an example of





Let's take Poorboy's. On a light cut level, they have:



-SSR1

-Pro Polish

-PwC

-PwC Blue

-PwS



Think about this for a second. Five polishes on their line that cut below a 2 out of 10. You could argue that you use SSR1 for any use, PP for more chemical cleaning action, PWC (blue) for carnauba topping, and PwS for sealant topping *generally speaking*. However, let's get back to basics. Menzerna (for as long as I can remember) marketed a polish for heavy cutting (Powergloss), medium cutting (IP), and light polishing (FPII) to the US markets. They never added in a wax or sealant or chemical cleaner, just good old-fashioned, precious abrasives mixed with their concoction of lubricating oils.



Now, I don't think it's much of a secret that Terry at CMA now has a licensing agreement with Menzerna USA which has an agreement with their German headquarters. If you rewind a couple of years to when Menzerna had their plain-jane cylinder shaped quarts and pints (think PO85RD and PO106FF), you will see how the company has evolved to fit the consumer/boutique market. Everything is now available in pints with flashier labeling and a broader product line.



Last month, Proper Auto Care introduced "Menzerna's One-Step, Acrylic Jacket" which they said "If you're an existing Menzerna customer, think of this product as 40% Final Polish II and 60% FMJ sealant." Anyone who has been around for a while and has began to poke around about the similarities in car care products can probably concur that what Proper said is probably as close to the truth as it gets.





So, why did they say that the new Blackfire Scratch Resistant Clear Finishing Polish shouldn't be used on vehicles pre-2005? Well, let's see, money. This business is all about profits. If you knew the background about how much the actual core product costs, you'd spit your [insert drink here] all over the screen as you read it. The markup in detailing is huge and since its all relative on the "boutique" level, they can and will charge it. Joe Consumer may just buy their standard finishing polish, but if he picks up a new car, then chances are, he will try out their Scratch Resistant Clear Finishing Polish. And, like many other people here, he will sit their and try to discern minute optical differences in hopes for that little extra shine and ultimately have a lighter pocket for it.



Proper is simply following the rest of the trends in the business. They realize that people itch to try new products. How many of us out there have just pulled that trigger because they heard enough hype to justify their purchase? I'm guilty as charged, too. But, if they have many similar products (read: Poorboy's) and a reputation for a good-product base, people will buy. Plain and simple.
 
I have no problem using 106FF or 85RD on my GM paint. Since the BF Polish is a reformulated 106FF, I will have no qualms about using it...this weekend. Granted I will go with the PC before trying with rotary.

If I dont post next week..I killed myself!!
 
Setec Astronomy said:
So, back to our Menzerna polishes--if the cerium(?) oxide is really hard, in comparison to regular polish abrasives
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Is that what's in them? That's used to polish glass!



No talk of the new all finish paint protection, or did I miss that thread? I liked the old BF, but it was hard to get it to buff off easily. Not sure I want to toss $30 down to try this one, though.
 
Yep, cerium oxide as in glass polishing. My understanding is it's the next grade up from optical, ( industrial?) Valugard's Cerious Compound employs it as well but it's just not the same as the Menzerna polishes.
 
The Cerious Compound is like sand in a bottle. I'd never use it or anything like it in my process. I simply didn't like the results I got from it.
 
This is what Terry said:



"Hi Zane,

Blackfire Scratch Resistant Clear Finishing Polish is the same as PO106FF with additional lubrication. Because we can not guarantee what the consumer might do, our legal department has advised us to just recommend this polish for the new Scratch Resistant Clear Coats.

Terry Freiberg

Classic Motoring Acc"
 
It seems all the clears I ever work on are hard, including Ceramiclear. I can confirm PO106FF is going to do just fine on them whether it be via PC, Cyclo, or rotary.
 
SpoiledMan said:
The Cerious Compound is like sand in a bottle. I'd never use it or anything like it in my process. I simply didn't like the results I got from it.
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Uh just a note here, you never actually used the Cerious Compound/Polish. I showed it to you, but there wasn't enough left in the bottle to buff the whole car. The product we initially tried for cutting on that Mercedes was AI Clearcoat Compound, which is akin to their Liquid Paint Correction Cream. As you know, that is some AGRESSIVE stuff. The Cerious compound is quite mild(comparatively) actually. I'd equate it's actual ability to cut about that of #83. It however, does require a finer polish on darker colors as it can haze just a bit.
 
gbackus said:
Uh just a note here, you never actually used the Cerious Compound/Polish. I showed it to you, but there wasn't enough left in the bottle to buff the whole car. The product we initially tried for cutting on that Mercedes was AI Clearcoat Compound, which is akin to their Liquid Paint Correction Cream. As you know, that is some AGRESSIVE stuff. The Cerious compound is quite mild(comparatively) actually. I'd equate it's actual ability to cut about that of #83. It however, does require a finer polish on darker colors as it can haze just a bit.
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:o:o:o



You didn't have to say it fron of the whole room.:o



That first experience was the last one. I'd have to be hoodwinked into trying those polishes again.
 
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