Need opinions on leather damage please

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imported_smprince1

New member
I'm detailing a 2002 Audi A6 today for a person who bought it from an out-of-state dealer over eBay. During cleaning of the leather interior, a spot on the driver's seat showed damage and I'd like to know if it's something I did wrong or due to something else.



I'm using Meg's APC, diluted 10:1, sprayed on and lightly worked with a MF towel. I've used this process on many many cars with no ill effects on the leather. I'm having a hard time believing that my process caused the damage, but if I did something wrong I'll make good on it.



I'm thinking the dealer used some sort of process or dye to make the leather look good for the sale. Whatever dye or process used has no durability.



So, was this bad leather or something I did?



Please look at the photos and give your opinions.



Thanks.



P1010962.jpg


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P1010965.jpg
 
I'm having a hard time understanding your question exactly.



Answer me this:



When you got the car, was the area that is now exposed gray? In that it didn't look like it currently does?



When you were rubbing, did it all of the sudden remove the coloring/coating in that area?



Or are you asking was this likely like this when you started, or not? (That is impossible if you are asking hehe).



Basically, regardless of if the spot was just sprayed with a light dye/paint and the leather was gone -- Or not.. The owner is going to see this, and not be happy. It is ultimately your responsbility.



On the other hand, it is quite obvious by the products you used that you did not cause the damage, it is a VERY worn part of the leather , you either gave it its final stroke before hitting the under -- Or you wiped off the 'cover up dye'.



If you did do it, and aren't wondering if it was like this when you got it -- Then I would just point it out to the owner. Don't act defensive, just be honest with him. Tell him what you did and what occurred, and that the product is used every day on all cars, etc -- Doesn't damage leather, blah blah. (No need to go into detail).



The guy will either understand that its beat up leather, and the rest of the car looks great and get on with his life (getting it fixed or replaced) -- Or get angry and demand you replace his seat.



I'm getting ahead of things here - But,.. if it comes down to him demanding a new seat or some such outrageous request. -- The most *I* would do in this case is offer to either pay for a leather specialist to fix the specific spot (they can fill and dye it to match) -- Or, offer the job to the customer for free.



I just had a slit in my leather and several spots sprayed by a specialist, and it was $85 for the repair in the seat, and 25$ extra for the dye spray on discoloration spots. He was good, and the prices seemed reasonable.



If they hold true/similar in your area, you very well could end up making money off the guy if he demands you pay for the fix and not take a free detail job (Or discounted job).



If you go this route, tell him to bring you a quote of the repair. For him not to have anything done without you first seeing the quote, and so forth.



But enough of what to do with the customer ;) -- (I'm just going into this a little because I was the customer on TWO things just like this) -- One was a rip in my leather by an audio shop, a few weeks later.. a Body shop buffed off some paint) -- The first resulted in the aforementioned repair and the bodyshop and I agreed to split the respray of the panel needing repainted 50/50. -- As I am reasonable and we agreed it wasn't exactly in pristine condition to start with. Which is exactly what you are working with here.





Option C) -- You can always go grab some dye of similar color and fill it in. --A bit shady and dishonest, but it might look fine -- If that was basically what was on it to begin with. --I'm not sure if you removed leather or just dye/paint here.



Again, if you are curious whether it came into your posession looking like this -- only the owner would know.



Good luck with the situation, and I'm am positive the professionals around here have dealt with things like this a time or two and can give you much more superb advice.



Take care,
 
I'm not trying to hide anything or get away with anything. I will be up front and honestly describe exactly what happened and we'll come to some agreement on how to make it acceptable.



I will not do any repair until discussing this with the client and we agree on a course of action.



My question is more geared toward to whether it appears the leather had been dyed or improperly repaired and that is the primary cause for the spot I've now uncovered or whether my product/process could have caused this on "good" leather. I'm having trouble believing this, because I've used this product/process on many many leather interiors. This is the first time I've seen this kind of result.
 
Here's another reason I believe some sort of cover up dye or "paint" was applied to the leather. In some of the seams you see what looks like "globs" of whatever might have been applied that wasn't completely wiped off. Almost looks like paint :nixweiss



Here's what I mean:



P1010970.jpg
 
Neofate said:
When you got the car, was the area that is now exposed gray? In that it didn't look like it currently does?



When you were rubbing, did it all of the sudden remove the coloring/coating in that area?
Click to expand...



When the car showed up it didn't look like it currently does ... it all looked pretty good. Maybe it felt a little "plastic-y" and not supple like leather should.



As I cleaned this area it just kind of started peeling and flaking off.



The owner only owned this car a few days ... just bought it off eBay from an out of state seller.



My opinion is the leather must have been dyed or covered up with something, but I've never encountered this before and I wanted to know if anybody could provide more insights or simliar experiences.
 
It looks like it has been repainted though Im not 100% sure. Perhaps the surface was not cleaned or prepared for the paint to adhere completely. Ive never seen Audis with this type of problem from the factory.

My suggestion is the following: Explain the customer the methods used to repair leather (You could ask a professional leather guy about this process), tell him that whoever did the job did not prepare the surface for a the paint to adhere, and whether the surface was cleaned or not, the paint or repair was meant to peel.

Thats as honest as you can get. Refer him to a pro fixin this type of stuff.
 
Those gobs are definite evidence it was re-dyed. If you looked closer you could probably see some overspray somewhere. And not a very good dye job or it wouldn't have peeled as easily as it did. Probably didn't have catalyst or surface wasn't properly cleaned first. Just fixed enough to sell it and get it down the road, and now you're the scapegoat. On my retail leather re-dye jobs I tell people to wait to clean for some time, but on dealer work I don't have that luxury. Still I never get anything coming back up. Well I shouldn't say never. But very very rarely. If you haven't talked to your customer yet, I would point out the globs - evidence of a poor dye job of which you were not priorly informed
 
It was re-dyed or painted dude no doubt, i had the same problem a couple of months ago but thanks god it was on a friend of mine car, just be honest with the guy he will understand.



good luck!!
 
I called the owner and explained what happened. He seemed a little incredulous that the leather had been dyed, but I told him I was going to stop working on the car until he had a chance to come take a look at it.



Leather is usually so durable, I'm still having a hard time believing that what I did was the root cause of the damage.



I'm sure sooner or later this kind of thing happens to most detailers ... but this is the first time a vehicle is going to leave my care looking worse than when it arrived.



I feel bad about it, and I'll work it out with the owner so we both are comfortable with whatever course of action we take.



I'd still welcome any more opinions/experiences with this kind of issue or leather dyes or paints.



Thanks.
 
Auto leather has a pigment (painted) top coat before it is finished. This bolster area is a particularly bad area for damage.



It would appear that a temporary repair has been done probably with a DIY kit or spray. These type of products will not adhere properly unless they are prepared and finished in the correct way. If the pigment has not been finished correctly over the top then sometimes it will merely wipe off with water.



To repair it the lose finish and any lose colour will need to be stripped back to a point where it is stable before recolouring again and refinishing using more professional products.



Hope this helps



Judy
 
I agree with Judy. That's a first! LOL j/k

It needs to be stripped back via chemical and possibly along with sanding. It's got to be totally flat and all loose stuff gone and pores opened again, in order for another re-dye application. A good leather tech is in order.



Definitely point out to the owner the extra paint still caught in the seams as well as any overspray paint evidence you might find
 
judyb said:
It would appear that a temporary repair has been done probably with a DIY kit or spray. These type of products will not adhere properly unless they are prepared and finished in the correct way. If the pigment has not been finished correctly over the top then sometimes it will merely wipe off with water.



.....



Hope this helps



Judy
Click to expand...



YES, It helps a lot to have somebody with knowledge of leather explain it. I've never had leather become damaged like this, because I didn't do much more than spray on the diluted APC and then wipe with a damp MF.



I still feel badly about damaging this client's vehicle, but I would have felt MUCH worse if it was somehow my fault.



It helps my conscience to see that 100% of the respondants have agreed with my assessment that the leather had been improperly repaired to enhance the appearance of the seats and make the sale.



Thanks to all who have reponded to this thread.
 
Just wanted to give my opinion after responding, getting your clarification --



With that second picture , it is quite obvious it has been dyed,or even merely spray painted. Never know with some people.



I just had some leather dyed,.. and when I leatheriqued the car some of it did come off -- But it isn't the same.. The areas that were 'spot' touched were not covering up damaged leather but slight discoloration due to some scratches. After the leatherique then the clean -- Alot of the dye came off, but upon further scrubbing the leather looked 'right' again now that it had gone through this process. The surrounding leather even looked a different color than the dye that remained. Because the leather tech matched to the current color of the dye -- After the process the leather was closer to a new color. So all of the dye was removed.



If that makes sense.



Where leather has been removed like in the picture with what looks like an undercoat completely undyed area it is very obvious. Leather isn't the color we have it in our car, wallets, and so on. It is tan/hide -- It actually looks like that leather is pretty thick there, strangely, and that it is a good candidate to be PROPERLY redyed to look fine. Not an irrepairable spot,.. though what a camera shows and what you can see with the human eye are two totally different things.. I've come to realize this much more intimately lately.



Though it sounds like you are prepared and are dealing with this very honorably. It even sounds like you are willing to work with the customer on something that is in no way your fault .. which says alot about who you are. If I were the customer I would want to come back to someone like you,.. there are a whole lot of others who would take other methods out of this.



It does help that it is a new used car, from ebay -- That doesn't leave it a whole lot of credibility, and the owner should realize this isn't an unlikely scenario.



I've said enough.. let us know how things turn out . :)
 
Call me obsessed ... I went out and did some more investigation. I'm more convinced that some DIY spray dye was applied to the leather. It looks like there is some overspray on the headrest post and a lot of the seams show gaps in the covererage when you pull them apart.



What do y'all think of these latest photos?



Is this overspray on the headrest post???

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Look at the incomplete coverage at the seams:

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There is even a little gob of dye in this photo where it wasn't spread evenly:

P1010973.jpg




The owner is coming to look at it tomorrow night and I want to have as much information as possible. I'm sure he's going to be disappointed that he got duped by the seller...he thought he got a great deal on eBay .... now it's not as great a deal as he originally thought maybe.
 
Sliding the headrest, yes very good thinking. All those photos are proof positive for me and I do have something like 26 yrs in the biz. Check also near the bottom of the seats on or near where all the adjustments are. You might see some color variation or overspray, but in any case the headrests and those seams are exactly all the proof you need
 
Even in the recent pictures.. the lighter ones -- It looks like the whole seat(s) were sprayed entirely.



Almost like they were buffed down and then sprayed. Because if not the underlying material would be of the 'old' color.





Take this picture



P1010975.jpg




Look at the bottom.



This picture



P1010976.jpg




It just looks like paint. Heh.



Now this one:



P1010973.jpg




You can see the splotching of the paint on the lower panel.



Further -- It looks like the upper was done and the bottom wasn't on this last picture. The lower section seems to be wearing and look more natural, the upper is glossier, and just not right.



The blotch looks like where the upper section was leaning against (I'm sure your prying this apart with pressure on this picture) the bottom section. It basically dried to it,.. they obviously didn't take the seats apart or hold the seams apart when spraying.



Nonetheless,.. the leather doesn't have holes all in it -- But I would recommend the owner get it all resprayed, or whatever has been sprayed sanded (or whatever leather techs do) and then sprayed with the proper texture and dye to match the factory look.. (Oh and so water based products don't rub it off :) )







Just looking at the seats with this upclose and personal show you've given us -- Shows that they were sprayed. Look between the cracks and so on.. that isnt' the way natural dye from the factory wears. It is built up between the cracks in a very 'touchup' kind of way.



Very, very poor job done on this. And if they did, indeed, spray it all -- They did more harm than good imo.
 
If it helps, to my completely untrained and amateur eyes it looks like a horrible spray job. In the last couple of pics it looks like whoever did it didn't even bother to clean the leather, much less prep it, before applying the new color.



Hopefully your customer will direct his frustration towards the seller and not you.



Based on the pics you are showing, I don't even think you should have to offer to pay to fix anything. Maybe offer a discount on your regular price just to show no hard feelings. But you were not at fault, and neither was he. Its just one of those unfortunate situations. He should check to see if he has any recourse with the seller, not you.
 
LaTuFu is absolutely correct -- All that is reasonable here, imo, is to offer a bit of a discount on your work done.. No offer of payment for any 'damage'. It wouldn't matter what detailer did this, or if he did it himself, it would have come off. The problem was there before he bought the car.



This should be obvious to the guy -- But some people don't want to take responsibility and push it off on anyone they might get away with. Let's just hope the guy is a reasonable human being and will understand you are just doing your job, and doing it right and honestly.



Have you finished the exterior, and the rest of the interior -- Where he see's it , he can pick it up? Or are you waiting on the inspection before you continue any of your work?
 
He's coming to have a look at it tonight...I finished the exterior but stopped on the interior. I did the carpets and glass and cleaned a lot of the plastic/vinyl, but stopped at the cleaning of the leather (e.g. nothing has been dressed).



I'm going to offer him to pick it up no charge. If he's understanding about knowing it's not my fault and still wants to pay maybe I'll just charge him for the cost of my chemicals.



I'm also lucky in that I do this as a side job and I'm not counting on this income to feed my family. If I were a full-time pro I might take a harder line on it.



I know it's not my fault, but it happened in my care and I'm not happy about it. Part of the gratification I get from doing this is the positive reaction I get from clients when they see how much better I make their vehicles look. This one looks worse than when he dropped it off and the customer is going to be disappointed whether it's my fault or not. I'll chalk it up to a learning experience for future jobs.



My reputation and integrity is more important to me than the small amount of money for one single detail.



Maybe he'll have a hard time accepting the fact that he got duped by the eBay seller and try to pin it on me. I won't know until we discuss. If so, I'll recommend he take it to an auto leather shop and have one of those people make an unbiased assessment.



Appreciate all the comments/responses. :hifive:
 
Dude we want to know what happend with your costumer? what's the end of the story?

let us know how things turn out .
 
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