my detaling plan(need input)

C

chip douglas

New member
Hi all, i've been reading this forum for a while now, but hadn't participated yet. My name is Mark, and i'm a car buff too( no pun intended:--).
I want to detail mine and my girlfriend's in about 2 weeks time. I gathered a lot of info from this forum as well as *detail city* forums as well. I have a friend in the field whom i went to so i could verify if my theoritical plan and technique was ok.........he told me it was indeed fine. As i said i have gathered and printed a lot from this forum, and highlighted key points. I don't want to use an orbital buffer, but instead will use a rotary buffer(makita), beginning with the softest polish and foam pad(3ms foam finishing pad) seting the speed to 1k, since i'm not experienced with a rotary. I have practiced on the dryer and washer, in order to get the feel of the rotary( so far so good). Now i will outline my paln for my car, and i'd like to guys to correct me if mistaken somewhere along the line.

here it goes :
1. dawn wash
2. claying
3. dawn wash(or car wash) to remove residue from claying.
4. polish(round 2000 to begin with since my car is a black 2000 toyota corolla......i want to use a polish with no fillers in it, so i can correct the slight imperfections on the paint.) My paint is in good condition i have to say, so i i guess it's much better to avoid medium compound, and since i'm not experiences with a buffer, i prefer to go easy on it.
5. swirl remover ?? i wonder if i should use one, as some say if you have a decent polish, it should also remove swirls(wonder if it is true), again i'd like to use something that doesnt hide swirls, but rather correct em. I have noticed that it's hard to keep the buffer constantly flat on the surface, so i give it about a 15 degree angle, and keep that angle steady. With regards to the holding of the buffer, i have found left hand on the handle along with a right underhand grip on the housing of the buffer, provides me with the most stability moving it. I move it from right to left, at a moderate rate of speed, but i really keep it moving all the time, i never hold it still on one spot. I have also found that either spritzing the pad or the surface to be buffed, allows one to buff longer, and provides me with more stability in holding the buffer in it's 15 degree angle. As mentioned above i will be using 3m's foam finishing pad, beginning with a polish for dark colored cars( my girlfriend's car is red, and mine black) with regards to black cars, with a buffer and my being a beginner, i'm aware i will have to be careful, and i think being meticulous as i am, will be able to go through it all with good results. Iwill cover plastic moldings, winshield wipers, and more if i need to. I will not use large quantities of products.......i know more isnt better.......i will also buff 2x2 feet areas at a time, like most advise here.
Then i plan on using zaino products(z2,z6,zfx,z7) as i live in a humid area.

I have printed and read the zaino procedure, dawn wash, claying, wash again, then z2+zfx......then z6 and then back to the z2 step with a z6 coat in between each coat of z2.................of course im fully aware that the surface has to be prepped properly, in order for the final result to be satisfying. My car doesn't have losts of minor scratches though it has a few, but considering it is black, id say it s decent. I also has some that wont go away, so im not even considering removing em, but rather only make em less apparent.

Im pretty clear about the dawn wash and claying which im going to do first, but as far polishing and swirl removal, im not that clear........i mean, is it the norm to polish then use a swirl remover, or the polish on its won will do the job ? As to my girlfriend's car it was re-painted one and a half year ago(red car), so i'll go very very easy on it, since the paint isn't the original one.

I will start by flat surfaces, like the roof, trunk, hood, then side panels.

do you guys use the buffer on painted bumpers ? or you do it by hand ?

The hood, and roof, and trunk, and doors(half of it at least) are easy surfaces to work on, but what about the rocker panels and lower half of doors, which are narrow and not as obvious as other parts ? do you do em too, and if so, what kink of pattern do you follow using the rotary ? im puzzled about em, i admit.

I will also use micro fibers cloth, as wipers after the buffing job is done, and white 100% cotton towels to remove zaino sealant.

I'm sorry if the above is a bit unstitched, it's cause halfway through my post, i had visitors, and resumed hours afterwards.

P.S. am i making a good decision to use zaino, or i'd be better off using others less expensive products ? most of you have wayyy more experience than i do, so rest assured your comments will count.

for interior, moldings, what should i use ? all i know is i wont use silicone based products, that s for sure...........i was thinking of buying all of zaino line of most of em.......tire cleaners, plastic/vinyl stuff etc.... but it gets pretty expensive and im not yet convinced they will be that much better than others on the market could be......correct me if mistaken here.

Thanks in advance, as the post is a lenghty one.
 
Hello -

Well, I think you should re-think your strategy as far as the buffer goes. When I was new around here, my first thought was to buy a rotary since those that used it said it would correct paint problems. A few wise people on here steered me away from the rotary as a first time buffer, and it proved out to be the best piece of advice anyone has given me here. The reason is this; you state that your paint is in good condition, with few scratches. If that is the case, a rotary buffer is going to be overkill as far as you are concerned.

I bought the Porter Cable DA buffer, and could not be happier that I did. I was able to acheive an actual mirror finish on my black SS with virtually zero scratches with just this tool alone - no rotary. The right combo of pad and polish will net you results that you will certainly be happy with, while at the same time ensuring that you will not burn your paint. I am not telling you what to do - just explaining what I did since I started with the same mentality as yourself about a rotary, and I think its wise to at least start with a PC and get a feel for it while making your car look great at the same time. Then, down the road if there are a few deeper scratches that the PC can't touch, or if you want to work on other peoples' cars with poor finishes, maybe try a rotary later. Just offering you my experience here, that's all....

As for your interior, there are without a doubt cheaper, and possibly more effective, products that Zaino out there. I have used Eimann Fabrik's line of interior products as well as Four Star (this board's sponsor) products with great results for much less $$. Keep in mind that sometimes with product lines like Zaino, you are paying a premium just for the name sometimes. For a protectant, it's hard to beat 303 or Einzett stuff, or even Lexol. This is some of the pricier stuff, but it works very well. Most of these products are available here at premiumautocare.com.

Good luck and I hope it turns out well for you!
 
Thanks 87 Monte SS

I appreciate your comments and experience here, i will indeed rethink my strategy. As far as zaino goes, as i was typing the query about zaino, i was, nahd have been asking myself this : is zaino just a name or is it really that good ? Well, asfter reading your post, i can see we kinda see eye to eye on this :--)

Thanks
 
I'll echo what 87 Monte said re: the buffer type. If you've not used one before on a vehicle, with all the different angles, curves, etc, one can make a mistake quite easily. Unless you've got some fairly serious flaws that need correcting or time is imperative, the PC D.A. can be just as effective given the proper product/pad combinations. Plus, having both the PC D.A. and a rotary makes for a great combo that will enable you to tackle any job. Each has its time and place for use.

As for your recipe....personally I don't see the need for a Dawn wash at either stage. Any polishing / swirl removal you do will remove whatever product is on the finish. Washing after a full clay job is not something I've found neccessary. I've done it once or twice and didn't see a benefit. If you clay in small sections and don't allow the lube to dry on the surface and use the proper lube the second wash is just a waste of time, IMO. Just give it a good wash and dry using your regular car wash soap.

Can't speak for the Z line as I'm not a Zaino user. There are a few folks here that have experience with Zaino. Personally I'm completely satisfied with both UPP and Poorboys EX.

Natty
 
I was just curious as to peoples thoughts as to whether all of the steps need to be done in one day? It seems very rare now that I have an entire afternoon on the weekends to spend entirely on the car, or even a weekend without rain. Would it be possible to say, wash and clay one day after work, re-wash( to get the road dust off), polish, and wax another day? How long does a good clay job last before you would need to clay again (i.e. if I couldn't wax for a week, would I need to re-clay the car)?

Thanks,
Neil
 
Hey Neil,

Yep, we're all pressed for time these days. On my own vehicles I frequently split up the steps into more than one day. For instance, I might get home from work and have 40 minutes before dinner. I'll wash (using Spray and Wipe) and maybe clay the horizontal surfaces or spot clay where needed. Maybe the next day I'll Spray and Wipe the hood and two front fenders then go over with a polish coat and then a finish coat. Maybe a day or two later I'll get the door and rear quarter on one side done and maybe when the weekend rolls around I'll have enough time to finish the other entire side of the vehicle. So what if a full polish and wax (or sealant) has taken time over the course of three days. I didn't rush like a maniac to do it and the results are just as good, if not better than if it had been done in one shot.

Seems we are all running a million miles an hour in 10 different directions these days. No need to stress out over getting everything done in one day. Detailing, when working on your own vehicle, can and should be a source of release or even relaxation. It is for me. Take your time, detail when you can on your terms. Enjoy the work and especially the finished product.

Natty
 
So what about the polish and swirl mark remover question that was asked earlier? Do you need both steps in a good detail?
 
rtbrick said:
So what about the polish and swirl mark remover question that was asked earlier? Do you need both steps in a good detail?
Click to expand...

Start with the lighter polish first, do a small section and check the results. If you still have swirls either A) change to a more aggressive pad or B) go to the next step up in polish (or SMR).

Natty
 
to NattyBumppo

Natty, when you say : start with a lighter polish, you prolly mean something like 2000( in my case since i have a black car, and i've seen 2000 grit advised for darker colors)......then if it doesn't do the trick, move to a swirl remover like, like 3m's scratch and swirls removers, right ?

One more thing though, when you say polish, do you mean with fillers or none ( please understand, that im in no way here tryingto be a smart ass, but i like the topic of car detailing and want to learn how to do it the right way). It gets confusing as some mix the term glaze and polish(even a friend of mine in the detail business, which i saw this afternoon). To me a polish is without fillers, to really remove slight imperfections on the paint surface, whereas a glaze does contain fillers(correct me if mistaken).

do you have a good example of a polish.....i mean brand and product name ? My guess is you apply a polish with something like 3m's foam polishing pad, correct ? and if it doesnt do it, as you said you keep the same polish, but move down to a more aggressice pad/ or keep the foam polishing pad but pick a swirl remover, which is even finer than the previously used compound, is that it ?

My friend(car detailer ive known for a while) told me that, using a buffer with some compound on a dark car, would definately leave swirls behind, to which i agree. But i told him i was going to use a polish to get my pain surface mirror like, then he said youre stilll going to have swirls. Now there's something i don't quite understand : buffer + compound(medium grit) produces swirls(so far everything makes sense), then after a rougher compound, one would prolly want to use a polish whose purpose is to remove swirls left by the coarser compound, right ? Then, either the guy meant i would definately have to use a swirl remover after the polish, or he didnt understand that a fine polish like 2000 or 3000 would also remove swirls at the same time.

But i admit i may be totally wrong here, again i want to emphasize, im simply learning by asking this, im not experienced, so i need to learn from you people.

Althoug i dont have experience with a buffer, i know am very meticulous, patient, and careful, and dont see how i could ruin my paint using a 3m polishing pad, spinning a1000 rpm's, and applying no pressure on the buffer, with a polish.....................i won't attempt to remove deep scratch with my buffer.

Whoever answer, thanks in advance for your time.

p.s. even with a polish, would it be better to spritz water on the foam pad ?
 
Chip....first let me make it clear that I am in no way an expert. I'm just a guy whos been car crazy (to steal a phrase from ol' Barry M) forever and has learned what works well for me. Plus learned a TON from folks here, at Autopia, guys like Boss and Poorboy and from detailing customer cars over the last year.

Instead of using your grit numbers like 2000 or 1500 etc, I'll use product lines I'm familiar with. When I say generally start with the lighter polish like Poorboys SSR1 or Megs Swirl Free. Check results and if needed try again with a more aggressive pad or the same pad but the next higher abrasive polish like Poorboys SSR2 or Megs DACP or Light Cut Cleaner.

Generally speaking yes..polish to me is not filling swirls but removing them. That's not to imply that a filler product is all bad. After all, how often can one continue to abrade away paint before it becomes an issue? Using a filler type glaze as a temporary fix and saving the swirl removal for a a couple times a year seems perfectly logical to me. That said, I do prefer to remove the problems and do what I can to prevent them from coming back. On customer cars filling is a no no. They are paying to have the problem corrected, not masked.

As with anything else in life there are exceptions where fillers and glazes and even polishes are concerned. For instance, the new 3M PI-III Machine Glaze states on the back that it removes the swirls, not fills them. Meguiars also states their SPeed Glaze will remove rather than fill. So the terms aren't as cut and dry as one might think.

I've never used the 3M pads so can't speak for them. I experiment sometimes with pad/product combinations. For instance, a while back I saw Steve using a fairly heavy compound wth a fine polishing pad on a rotary. Not something one would normally do. Guess what, the compound did the work and removed the heavy marring and some nasty acid rain spots but the pad didn't haze the finish (and this was on a black car). There was so little haze with that compound/pad combo ....I filed that away for future use.

I'll use my judgement as to what pad I'll pick for the product. Maybe a mild cutting pad with the polish to start then a fine polishing pad as a follow up with the same product. Or a heavy foam cutting pad and a medium duty polish/cleaner like Megs DACP or Poorboys SSR2. You can go wrong if you start at the lower abrasive scale with both product and pad and work your way up.

As for as your friend the pro detailer is concerned, he'd be a good source for you to draw on. Although I must wonder why he said you'd still have swirls after following your compound with a lighter polish and rotary. Maybe he saw something in your finish that raised a flag to him?

Phew, thats it. Hope this mumbled mess of mine was somewhat helpful. If anyone sees something they feel needs correction here or something they want to expand on please do! After all, I'm still learing every time I pick up the buffer.

Natty
 
Natty, you make my head hurt with all that talk....

Now I may be a bit more confused (than usual...LOL). 3M PI-III Machine Glaze and Meguiars Speed Glaze will actually remove some swirls? I guess only light stuff, but I thought a glaze was simply for shine purposes only.

Yesterday happened to be my birthday and I have been talking about this forum to my wife. And lo and behold she actually paid attention to a few things I said...she got me a PC 7336! Now I've got to research some older threads on what and how to use. The pad thing has got me in a twist. Light polish, heavy pad, vice versa and everywhere in between. On one hand I want to the job once and get it right. On the other hand I don't want to ruin my paint.

I have some Meguiars Deep Crystal system Polish. What is this product capable of? Is it any good or should I get a different product (Meguiars or otherwise). My goal is to remove some light (actually they are difficult to see on my light colored truck) swirls.
 
Good post, Natty. In fact, you brought up a couple interesting points, perhaps without even thinking about it! :)

The one thing that struck me was when you said "how often can we continue to abrade paint away until it becomes an issue." You are certainly right about that, and it's probably a topic for another thread altogether, but it made me think about it more critically this time. I have spent so much time and effort seeking out products that repair swirls and scratches without fillers, that I have not even considered the possibilities of good products that contain fillers, for those "in between" correcting sessions; to conserve paint thickness. Maybe you could offer up a couple so I wouldn't have to run the gamut again with those types of polish like I did with the others! :D

Another good point is that there is definitely a difference between a polish and a glaze. A true polish should only correct the paint imperfections, which as we all know, is not the case with some products. So, to blur the lines even more, companies started adding fillers to their polishes in an effort to "save time and effort". Well, this is a double edged sword, so to speak, as it may save some time in the short term, but eventually you WILL need to correct the problems via a polish without fillers. How often you do this is the key, I think. A glaze, on the other hand, will serve to add gloss and fill in the remaining swirl or scratch that did not come out with the polish. I, myself, have never used one, so I wouldn't know a good one if it hit me in the face. I think the AIO is a good enough "glaze", although maybe not in the true sense of the word, but then again, my paint is in good enough shape where anything else would be overkill. It serves as an adequate base for the UPP.

Chip, as for good, no-filler polishes, I'll add a couple I think are great at what they are intended for, and that is to remove swirls and light scratches. Both of the Menzerna polishes (Intensive and Final) are fantastic when used together, and Hi-Temp's Light Cut polish is one of the best non-filler polishes available, IMO. I have not found the need to use anything but a polishing pad with either product, but your paint condition will dictate what you need in your situation. I use the variable contour Lake Country pads (white polishing, black/gray finishing) with great results. Try 'em out for yourself and see what you think.

As for the rotary vs. PC topic, the debate rages on. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to do the job with it, but unless your paint is in relatively poor shape, you don't need it. It would be similar to using a sledge hammer to drive in a tack. You can get amazing results with the PC and the above mentioned products. If you are hell bent on using a rotary, go for it. But the risk is about zero using a PC and I'm certain the results will be close to perfect if you use it with the right products and keep at it.

Good luck!
 
87 Monte SS

Hi 87 Monte SS, all i can say is my paint is in a good condition, with some scratches that even a buffer couldnt remove(i really dont have many of em, which i touched up btw). The rest of the paint surface is satisfactory, yet i want to bring it to mirror like state. I wasnt aware one could use polishes with a pc, and get as good results as with the rotary. I thought most people used a rotary and a polish to bring their cars mirror like, then applied whatever wax or sealants they re fond of.

Your post was very informative to me.

Do you know of any people which use the rotary on paints that *only * need a good polish, or in other words whose paint has swirls and light scratches ? Or do they all use a PC for the latter job ? I'm asking cause, i already have a rotary and would have to invest in a PC. Yet i'm also much aware that investing in a PC is wayyyy cheaper than ruining my paint. I'm not hell bent on using a rotary, but i confess i'd like to learn how to use it to my own advantage, in view of saving couple of bucks, and ESPECIALLY cause it feels good to look at the results of a well done job you did.

I'm very meticulous and particular about my car, and i have good reasons to be so, as last summer, iwent to the best local detailer and after cleaning my car's carpet and engine, one of his employee , left a towel with engine cleaner on it hang upon my side mirrors, and guess what, it ruined the glossy black finish on em mirrors. Yet id like to point out that we ALL make mistakes, therefore im not condemning this guy for what he shouldnt have done, but im telling you this to justify why i prefer doing it myself, when it is something that i can actually learn of course............there are thing in life ne cannot do, that goes without saying, but my guess is car detailing can be learnt easily, if the person has ingrained meticulousness as a basic quality, and a good common sense.

Very often the only way to be 100% satisfied is to do the job oneself (of course there are exeptions, as mentioned above, im much aware of that fact).

p.s. this forum is great guys !! lots of good and relevant info here.
 
did you guys catch that the dude put UPP on the tires, now I have seen UPP used on everything, guess I got to try it now, never thought of that before. Maybe I will put 3 layers of UPP and a few of EX and buff with some QD+, just joking I am not that obsessed.
 
87 Monte SS said:
Good post, Natty. In fact, you brought up a couple interesting points, perhaps without even thinking about it! :)

The one thing that struck me was when you said "how often can we continue to abrade paint away until it becomes an issue." You are certainly right about that, and it's probably a topic for another thread altogether, but it made me think about it more critically this time. I have spent so much time and effort seeking out products that repair swirls and scratches without fillers, that I have not even considered the possibilities of good products that contain fillers, for those "in between" correcting sessions; to conserve paint thickness. Maybe you could offer up a couple so I wouldn't have to run the gamut again with those types of polish like I did with the others! :D
Click to expand...

Thanks Monte. You know, I touched on this same thing re: filling vs. abrading, on a Ford Truck forum that I frequent and it evoked a few argumentative responses. Not that I really care......everyone certainly has the right to pound away at their finish as often as they want. Just makes sense to me that if one if planning on keeping a vehicle more than 2-3 years (I typically keep mine at least 6-7 years) then retaining as much of the film build seems pretty logical.

As for good filling type products two that come to mind are the old standard, 3M Imperial Hand Glaze and also Mothers Sealer Glaze. The Mother's Sealer Glaze has gotten a lot of good press lately...people seems to like it very much.

Thomasfl....thats it! If you start UPP'ing your tires I think the men in the white uniforms will be paying you a visit! LOL

Chip..as for achieving the same results with PC and rotary....it is VERY dependant on the condition of the finish AND the product you use. Anything that says it can be used by hand obviously will work well with the PC D.A. . Some products thta state "machine only" can also be used effectively with the PC but will require longer working time.

Natty
 
Natty: Thanks. I will give one of those a try to see what it does for me. Also, I think I read this somewhere on here, but can you actually seal over a glaze such as the 3M with EX? If that is true, you can bet that I will do it! It would almost eliminate the need for polishing/abrading more than once or twice a year.

Chip: A mirror like finish IS possible with a PC and polishes - I have done it myself. Granted, it will take considerably longer than a rotary, but my SS has a lot of sharp edged definition lines (something sorely missing on today's car designs, I would say!) and I wanted to avoid burning through on these critical areas. If you have the rotary, you may as well give it a try, but like you say, you should proceed with caution. I am sure you are quite capable of doing a great job - it is just going to require a little more concentration and patience. Judging by what you say about your paint condition, I would not use anything more aggressive than a polishing pad and an SMR like Menzerna Intensive polish (or for the sake of comparison, Meguiar's # 9) with nothing higher than 1200 RPM.

Good luck! :)
 
87 Monte SS

I had in mind to set the machine at 1000 rpm's + polishing pad(3m's, or the softest i can find) + SMR.................and i dont want to go rougher than a polish .....a very fine one. All that because i want to have as much chances on my side not to mess my paint.

I've been warned about sharp edges, and such.......another guy i know in the detailing business in my area, told me to even avoid edges altogether...............should one do them by hand only, or only go over such areas, VERY lightly ? And one more thing, what s happening on the lower half of the doors, and rocker panels ?
There are a lot of angles there, and edges(of course i mean with a rotary here)............cause on my corolla, the lowest half of the doors is kinda curved inwards, and it is more ackward in those area to maneuver also, at least by looking at it, that's what i feel.

I asked a car painter, whom i 've known for a long while, about using a foam polishing pad+ a very soft polish/smr+ spinning 1000 rpm's with a rotary.......................i asked him this : can i burn my paint or cause damage, using the above ? What he told me is : no, because, a foam polishing pad wont cause enoug heat to burn through paint, and also he advised me Not to apply extra pressure on the buffer, he told me to let the abrasives do the work(in other words, only the weight of the buffer is used here).
Also he told me one should keep the surface to be polished WELL lubricated......he said once it dries up, stop the buffer.

One other point i asked, but this time to another car painter i know, is : *what's the average clear coat thickness?* to which he said : about 4 thousandth of an inch................if that is true, than the average car clear coats would be slightly more than an hair thick:( Personally, i'd tend to believe that lots of cars have more than 4 thousandth of an inch clear coats, but i'm no car painter and i could be way off about this...........i'm here to be educated ;)

So to wrap it all up, areas that cause me to *?* is rear spoiler, rocker panels and lower half of doors(since the surface is not always flat)....this of course regards the use of a rotary, as edges are not an issue with a PC.


P.S. thanks for being that patient, as i know for a fact it gets annoying to repeat the same speech over and over..............i just want to say that i appreciate your help and guidance a lot folks.
 
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