MSDS for MPPC and DCS Cleaner are similar

B

bileduct

New member
The MSDS for most Meguiar's products are up now on the Meguiar's website. I was curious about the Deep Crystal System Paint Cleaner (A-30), which I have used, and wanted to see how it compares to some of the other products. I noticed the "chemical nature of the preparation" appears to be the same for DCS Cleaner and MPPC (M97). Can I expect them to perform the same? I had the impression, from lurking on this board and showcargarage, that most people regarded MPPC as being more aggresive/abrasive than DCS.



Also, I was curious about Clear Coat Body Scrub (A-10) and Scratch-X (G-103), but the MSDS for those are not up yet.
 
Hi bileduct



First of all, I have personally been pushing to make Meguiar’s MSD sheets available online for about a year now. This includes a special internal report I wrote concerning the Internet and the miss-use of MSD sheets, both Meguiar’s MSD sheets as well as other companies MSD sheets.



One reason is because other websites archive our MSD sheets, (which are usually out of date), and then people refer to them and obtain out of date information.



Another reason is to be upfront with people about what's in Meguiar's products for safety reasons. Detailing cars is fun and sometimes profitable, but it's not worth dieing over.



One of the problems with putting the MSD sheets online is then you have people dissecting them and then often reading into them, things that are not true. For example, M-07 lists an ingredient who's use is almost always associated as an abrasive, however, the form in which it is used in this product is not as an abrasive.



How the chemist put it to me was like this,



"M-07 hasn't been scratching paint for over 70 years'



Get it? it hasn't been scratching paint for over 70 years.



Yet I have seen time and time again when someone will read the MSD sheet for this product and then post that M-07 is an abrasive polish.



The Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner is very different from Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner, which is an excellent example of what I'm referring to above concerning the ingredients listed in MSD sheets.



I’ll answer you question more completely next week as today is Sunday, and I have to take at least one day off a week for R&R and family time.



Mike
 
Mike,



Thanks for the reply! I was pretty sure that the MSDS does not tell the whole story.



I have a bachelor's degree in chemistry but that's not what I do for a living, and I have forgotten most of what I used to know. Fortunately, I do know enough not to directly equate a safety sheet with the performance characteristics of a material. Curiosity made me ask the question - I like to know how things work. I'm getting into the hobby of car detailing, and part of the fun is knowing the how and why of the available detailing products.



The first car care product I ever used was the consumer cleaner wax in the maroon bottle. The first paint prep product I ever used was Deep Crystal cleaner. I think the cleaner is an awesome product, very easy to use, and delivers great results. I've started using it before applying Klasse AIO, and to my eyes, it makes a difference (although theoretically the cleaners in AIO alone should be more than adequate). Now I can't wait to switch to the new NXT wax - the picture you posted that showed the swirl filling properties has me drooling! I plan to prep with DCS cleaner with a PC on my 2002 white Honda Accord and then apply NXT.



- Christopher
 
Mike Phillips said:
"M-07 hasn't been scratching paint for over 70 years'



Get it? it hasn't been scratching paint for over 70 years.



Yet I have seen time and time again when someone will read the MSD sheet for this product and then post that M-07 is an abrasive polish.
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Saying something will "scratch" your paint and saying something contains abrasives are two different things.....at least according to the "scratch" test example you tried to use.
 
Intermezzo said:
Saying something will "scratch" your paint and saying something contains abrasives are two different things.....at least according to the "scratch" test example you tried to use.
Click to expand...



Intermezzo,



I want to help add to the collective body of information on the subject of abrasives, and specifically, abrasives used in Meguiar's products.



Below is a screen capture of Meguiar's Online MSD sheet in PDF format, I have outlined in red, the ingredient that some people naturally assume to mean that M-07 Show Car Glaze is an abrasive polish.



Fact is, it's not. The ingredient, Natural Diatomaceous Earth, as it is used in this formula, is not as an abrasive, (it serves another function). The form in which this ingredient is used [in this formula], it is completely non-abrasive.



About a year ago I wrote an internal report on the Internet that addressed the subject of Meguiar's MSD sheets. One of the things I highlighted was that often times, the MSD sheets other websites archive are out of date. This leads to incorrect information being referenced. The other thing I pointed out was that on some people on the Internet take the information contained in these MSD sheets and use it for their own nefarious reasons.



The solution I recommended in this report was to make all of Meguiar’s MSD sheets available online on Meguiar’s website so that they can be kept up to date internally, as well as make important safety information available to those that want it, and to those who need it to comply with OSHA regulations. Meguiar’s has nothing to hide.



One more thing I recommended in this report was that a second page accompany each product MSD sheet that will further explain the information found on the original MSD sheet, only in layman terms. (We haven’t gotten this far yet, but most of our MSD sheets are now available).



I know elsewhere on SCG and here on Autopia you were involved in a thread on polishes and abrasives where I think you thought a post I made referred to you. This is not true. My post referred to the people referenced above in the internal report I wrote. What I would like to do is answer anybody’s questions on the topic of abrasives and polishes until everybody is satisfied.



So let’s delve into this subject and science this thing out. (We have to try to have fun too, or… well… it won’t be any fun).



Mike
 

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Hi Mike,

Natural Diatomaceous Earth is not good to breathe in is it?



I have heard of people using this in diatom filters to clean (Polish) the water in aquariums...Seems like I remember it (Natural Diatomaceous Earth) having a cancer warning to it...Any comments?
 
Hi rusty bumper,



Good question.



How's this... I don't know.



It's after 9:00pm here and there's a party going on in the Training Garage, so I'm here posting in-between buffing out a SuperBird as part of a demonstration of NXT Tech Wax.



I'm not a chemist, but... I'm very interested in chemistry. Since all of the chemists have gone home for the weekend, the best I can do is ask your question next Monday. Which I will do. (I'm sure I'll have more).



Here's a picture of a John and Vincent Marconi’s 1970 Superbird as Vincent applies the new NXT Tech Wax, (he’s a natural born detailer).



Mike
 

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Mike,



As a complete amateur, I don't think Meguiar's had people like me in mind when they developed and marketed their pro line of products. I want to learn how to prep paint for waxing. Protecting paint seems pretty easy to me - you can't do any harm to your paint with a wax or sealant, and they all work adequately. Preparing the paint is the confusing part. I have the Meguiar's consumer catalog, wherein are listed 3 paint prep products. Quoting from the catalog:



Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner



This amazing, non-abrasive cleaner safely removes contaminants, light oxidation, light scratches, and swirls to restore damaged and dull finishes. The formula uses advanced technology to prepare all paint finishes for polishing and waxing.



Scratch X, Scratch and Swirl Remover



Eliminate fine scratches and swirl marks with ease. This advanced product wipes away light surface contaminants, light oxidation and blemishes, penetrating the finish to enhance paint color. More gentle than other formulations it's ideal for quick touch-ups or reviving a car's entire finish.



Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner



Professionals appreciate the way this formulation safely eliminates blemishes and oxidation from all paints, including clear coats. It's lubricating formula makes it our most aggressive cleaner for use by hand - and it's also safe with orbital and DA polishers.







These descriptions are very hard for a beginner to interpret. Deep Crystal removes light scratches and swirls, but if I have fine scratches and swirls, then maybe I need Scratch X? What's the difference between light and fine? MPPC is described as a lubricating formula, and it's the lubricant properties that make it an agressive cleaner. That seems counterintuitive. Nothing mentioned about swirls or scratches. Does this mean I need all three, and must use them in some sort of order? I doubt that. I had hoped the MSD sheets would provide a clue but they looked so similar that there was no way I could equate performance with what I read there. I don't know as I want to advance to Meguiar's professional line of products without first gaining experience with the presumably less dangerous consumer line (as well as using up what I already own). I suppose the whole question becomes moot if you jump to a product like DACP, but I've read posts about products like that and I don't think I have the skill yet to handle them. And I'm still curious about the products Meguiar's is marketing to me as a consumer. Since my first post in this thread, I've tried both Deep Crystal and Scratch X with a DA polisher once each, and found Deep Crystal easier to use. I am not convinced either helped out much with swirls, but I really like the squeaky clean paint I get from Deep Crystal.



If only I could just not worry about the descriptions in the ads and simply pick a product I like, use it often, and leave it at that. :)
 
Bileduct,



I have typed up a response to your questions, I just haven't had time to finish it and post it. I don't want you to think I forgot about you.



Mike
 
Hi Bileduct,

I have used MPPC and Deep Crystal together many times (With a DA polisher)...MPPC is more abrasive than DC...I like to use MPPC as a starter, then switch over to DC before I use a polish or wax.



I like MPPC for it's cleaners, and I like DC for it's ability to bring out dark colors, plus it seems to really add some pop to the finish...These 2 products will help remove fine scratches & swirls.



Here is a car I detailed lately with MPPC & DC: http://www.showcargarage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251
 
I always got the impression that Scratch-X was more for spot application on scratches than an all-over product.



If you have deeper swirls but don't feel up to a product as aggressive as DACP, then you may have to just accept them for a bit until your confidence goes up. In that case, you may want to use a hiding product like #7 or Hand Polish or the new NXT wax.



Also, I find MPPC to be useful more for paint that has staining or oxidation or other contaminents. It is more of a cleaner than a swirl remover. I haven't noticed it do a whole lot for swirls. I only used the Deep Crystal stuff a few times long ago, but my take is that the DC cleaner is a bit milder than MPPC (MPPC is a pro product). If you specifically want to help with swirls, maybe try Swirl Free Polish or #9. I find SFP to be an easy product to use by hand or by DA/RO polisher.



I don't know if that helps.
 
Rusty Bumper,



I have both MPPC and DCS cleaner, and I noticed they smell exactly the same. I suspect they have just about the same chemical cleaning power. What difference do you notice when you use DCS after MPPC? Is DCS removing hazing left by the abrasives in MPPC? Is this sort of like Menzerna IP followed by FP?



By the way, with all the solvents in these two products, they strike me as being the perfect paint prep for sealants like Z and Klasse, way better than the ever-popular Dawn wash.
 
bileduct said:
Rusty Bumper,



I have both MPPC and DCS cleaner, and I noticed they smell exactly the same. I suspect they have just about the same chemical cleaning power. What difference do you notice when you use DCS after MPPC? Is DCS removing hazing left by the abrasives in MPPC? Is this sort of like Menzerna IP followed by FP?



By the way, with all the solvents in these two products, they strike me as being the perfect paint prep for sealants like Z and Klasse, way better than the ever-popular Dawn wash.
Click to expand...



MPPC is a stronger cleaner than DC, and, I think DC will remove any hazing that MPPC leaves behind.



I used to use MPPC as my only cleaner, but I never could get the finnish that I was looking for until I tried some Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner as a next step.



I worked DC in on 4 1/2 speed, then I switched to the 5 setting and let the machine do it's thing for a good minute or two using Meguiar's 6" red cutting pad...(I don't buff it dry).



After I wiped off the residue, I was amazed at how good the finnish looked...It had some more reflection in it!



Maybe it was the increased speed setting I used, but Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner will add something to the look of the car in my opinion.



These 2 cleaners are mild when compared to some of the other Meguiar's cleaners, so that would make MPPC and DC a great choice for detailing if you're concerned about taking off too much Clear Coat.



Sorry, I'm not familiar with Menzerna IP or FP.
 
RB -



I'm gong to try the MPPC - DCS combo, it sounds interesting. My first experience with DCS cleaner was as a prep step before applying AIO, which I used to use alone because AIO itself is a prep step. I could swear the paint looked better because of the DCS cleaner!



Mike, I noticed the NXT line does not seem to have any polishes. I nominate the DCS Step 1 cleaner for the off the shelf consumer. Just take the stuff and put it in an NXT series bottle and call it "NXT Paint Prep". I really think the DCS cleaner is underrated and underappreciated. I'd be willing to bet that people who use "NXT Paint Prep" prior to "NXT Tech Wax" are going to be a lot more satisfied with the results than if they use the Tech Wax alone. (Mind you, I'm referring to everyday consumers, not to Autopians, who will be using more advanced products meant for pros.)
 
bileduct said:
RB -



I'm gong to try the MPPC - DCS combo, it sounds interesting. My first experience with DCS cleaner was as a prep step before applying AIO, which I used to use alone because AIO itself is a prep step. I could swear the paint looked better because of the DCS cleaner!
Click to expand...



I believe Meguiar's consumer line of products is underrated...Especially the DC line.
 
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