More "Optimum X" News...

Even if you're not too concerned about having 106 hide defects, you might want to do an IPA wipe down anyway... 106 leaves oils behind that seem to directly effect LSP longevity. And not in a good way.
 
detaildoc said:
Not to hijack the thread, but TH001, do you believe that 106ff has fillers? I just used it for the first time on my wife's SUV with a white pad and it finished really nice. After I applied the first coat of UPGP, I noticed that I had missed some light swirls on the hood. These were very light, so I would think that they would have been covered by the 106ff if it had any fillers. I will be inspecting the paint closely over the next few weeks to see if any swirls return.



That Optimum X stuff looks too plastic for my taste.
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No, I do not believe 106ff has fillers, at all (traditional fillers such as clay or heavy oil).



From my conversations with various manufacturers, here is what I have come up with. (Again much of this is based on conversations with various people, but the conclusions are my own.)



106ff (as well as many of their other products) are "Production" polishes. They are developed for specific conditions on in an assembly factory. Many companies make production polishes, but because these products are so focused, they are rarely sold outside the production line (and their cost is very prohibitive). They can have problems when used in dynamic environments, such as what most detailers have, and when not used on paint similar to what they where designed to be used on.



I believe (this is a rumor, and it is hard to get the "facts) that 3M has over 20 different production line polishes, for various paint systems used in the factory. However, we cannot get our hands on these. When used on the paints they where designed for, I am sure the results are amazing (I have been trying to get my hands on the 3M polished used on the production line for Infiniti G35's. If it can finish out that soft paint perfect, imagine how nice of a finishing polish that would be).



So by "us" using 106ff on anything less then fresh, Mercedes Benz paint, with the approved pad and polish, in the right temperature and humidity, we are using 106ff outside its environment and thus using it incorrectly. However, as many have noted, 106ff and SIP (when they work) can produce stunning result. When they don't work you can get pad hop, pad skip, grabbing, etc...



I have also heard that 106ff uses a wax type lubricant in 106ff, designed to lengthen the work time (to cut the cerma-clear). I am not 100% sure if this is true or not.



When the paint is polished (via rotary) the foam of the pad contacts and rubs against the paint. Depending on the paint hardness, lubrication, and mechanical action of the foam, the pad itself can leave amazing small abrasions into the paint. On softer paints, these abrasions would obviously be bigger.



I believe that the carrier (or lubrication oils) of 106ff can leech into these incredibly small abrasions and be very stubborn to remove. This would explain why most people whom I have spoken with regarding this "masking issue" have noticed it on cars that typically have softer paint. Also, this explains why the problem seems to happen most with people who are using a polishing pad to finish the paint.



If you really want to finish the paint, you have to use a pad with little to know no mechanical action, and use a polish with an abrasive that breaks down at a slower rate (to insure that it "cleans itself up").



I recommend that you wipe the paint with a solvent (though this could be more dangerous) though I know Ryan swears by using a high percentage alcohol wipe down (91% un-diluted). The alcohol is probably a safer alternative, but it needs to be strong.

I think this should be down on every car before applying a wax or sealant (unless it is part of a system such as following Meguiars #80 with #26, since the oils in #80 and #7 are the same).



Even then, I had noticed longer durability from Meguiars #21 after wiping the paint down with a solvent after polishing with #80. On top of #80, Meguiars #21 would give me about 2 months. With the wipe down, I was able to get about 3 months. Also, many people have noted issues with sealants have very short life cycles when used on top of 106ff….
 
TH0001 said:
Of topic but... Jeff Silver adamently stands behind his claim that 106ff doesn't fill and that we are all lying when we say we have defect return.... He has gone so far as to call me a liar on other forums...
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I had a problem with spider swirls returning after 106 but I thought it was me. :nixweiss
 
integritydetail said:
I'm not sure what you're referring to and Optimum isn't a private label, but stay away from whatever you like...just don't know why you think you need to post negativity on stuff you haven't even tried and isn't even out yet. Just looks like you're bashing.







It's not a sealant; it's a coating. Price hasn't been established yet, the one given is only speculation based on conversations during development. Everyone in this game is in it to make money. Not sure what you're talking about is a "booster"...if you mean Polycharger, it's not an Optimum product.







I'm not marketing anything, I haven't even evaluated "X" yet. And I don't get the Zymol reference either, I've never used anything Zymol makes or made statements about their products, neither positive or negative.







Again, I could care less if people purchase it, it doesn't help me at all. I am glad that I am the only Detailer in my area that uses Optimum and doubt I'd ever share the excellent product line with any of them, because Optimum definitely gives me an edge over them. I'm glad you are secure in the products you use, but the difference in me and you is that I'm not being sarcastic

.





Why doesn't your logic here, not apply to all new Optimum products that you haven't tried? Like I said earlier, I've noticed that you post to threads about Optimum letting us all know that you won't be trying them....who cares? How does that contribute to the thread or the forum? What is the basis for unsolicited negativity?







Understood, that's the most logical thing you've said and I'd have to totally agree. Some things I try and some things I don't, but I don't talk about stuff I've never tried and say "well, I'm not gonna try it because Dr. So-n-so made a statement I don't agree with and I don't trust anything he says now" That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It not justified and borderline slanderous.







Thanks I guess, not my product line. And again: what's with the sarcasm?







Maybe I will, but it wouldn't be because you've enlightened me with your wisdom, more like you'd be the reason I didn't with all your negativity and elitism.



What was this thread about again? LOL



Chris
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My, we are full of one self.:dig If you feel some of this is sarcasm, so be it.



So this is a coating? Who put this coating on a 356 Porsche? Can it be removed without any damage to the finish, or show any leftover coating etc? 356 models tend to be on the pricy side as they are harder and harder to get in good to excellent condition.



I see it was also done on a 997. Very brave soul on such a soft paint. I hope that too will be able to be removed w/o issue.



Just as I say to others that Optimum polishes work well per other users reporting this is just that. Nothing more. You're reading too much into this.



I really do not care what you think of me or how you may read my reply. Sarcasm, bashing, whatever. Call it what you want.



But glad to hear you'll become a member of PCWD.



Deanski
 
I been had problems with 106FF and stop using it. My bottle is about 90 % full and it's a yr old now. My problem is the swirls have came back to haunt me to death! and that pad hop, pad skip, grabbing eats me to death! Even doing a 70/30 wipe down 2 times. Todd PM me the number or name of the 3M polish your talking about and maybe i can get of hold of my 3M rep. to see if he can get it for us..........Angelo
 
Deanski said:
My, we are full of one self.:dig If you feel some of this is sarcasm, so be it.



But glad to hear you'll become a member of PCWD.



Deanski
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If I was full of myself I'd correct your typos.^^ We and one are not are not in agreement; It should be either: "you are full of yourself or we are full of ourselves." But, that's just splitting hairs, LOL:woot:



So, bickering aside, is it PCWD like your post says or PCWA like your signature says?
 
TH0001 said:
106ff (as well as many of their other products) are "Production" polishes. They are developed for specific conditions on in an assembly factory. Many companies make production polishes, but because these products are so focused, they are rarely sold outside the production line (and their cost is very prohibitive). They can have problems when used in dynamic environments, such as what most detailers have, and when not used on paint similar to what they where designed to be used on.



So by "us" using 106ff on anything less then fresh, Mercedes Benz paint, with the approved pad and polish, in the right temperature and humidity, we are using 106ff outside its environment and thus using it incorrectly. However, as many have noted, 106ff and SIP (when they work) can produce stunning result. When they don't work you can get pad hop, pad skip, grabbing, etc...



I have also heard that 106ff uses a wax type lubricant in 106ff, designed to lengthen the work time (to cut the cerma-clear). I am not 100% sure if this is true or not.



When the paint is polished (via rotary) the foam of the pad contacts and rubs against the paint. Depending on the paint hardness, lubrication, and mechanical action of the foam, the pad itself can leave amazing small abrasions into the paint. On softer paints, these abrasions would obviously be bigger.



I believe that the carrier (or lubrication oils) of 106ff can leech into these incredibly small abrasions and be very stubborn to remove. This would explain why most people whom I have spoken with regarding this "masking issue" have noticed it on cars that typically have softer paint. Also, this explains why the problem seems to happen most with people who are using a polishing pad to finish the paint.
Click to expand...



Now you're getting it. As I said before and was told not by Jeff, but by the German office that what you stated above is about as close to the statements I received as to 106FF. They (Maybach/MB) uses a very specific pad and rotary for it's use along with a time line. We are all using this polish way out of the "fresh paint" environment and do not posses the pads as well. So, it's use at you're own risk and results.



I've been playing with 106FA with not too bad results, but need more time to verify if this too will run into the same issues.



Yes, it's a wax-like oil based lube to help the aluminum oxide cut longer w/o damage to the finish (Ceramiclear). So, it can leave a film like residue on cured finishes (non-Ceramiclear). So far, it's used for PPG, but now seems to be used for Glasurit hard clearcoat as well, but not for long as they have a new formula for this new clearcoat.



The result from Menzerna is to use the standard finish polish. I've used the polish designed for wood coatings which is really like FPII.



3M does have so many polishes it's hard to keep up. And unless you are an OEM mfg, you'll never see it over the counter, no matter how much you beg. It's like the Area 51 of polishes.



Stick with polishes for cured paints, you'll get better results.



Deanski
 
Sorry to hijack, but a quick question for Deanski: I looked around the site and it looks like a bunch of tunnel washers and express detailing stuff. That's not at all what I expected after your selectiveness of products. Did I go to the wrong place? I didn't see much usable info there...
 
Deanski said:
This, from the same Dr G who claimed that Menzerna polishes swell paint?:rofl



Oh boy, more hype and slick marketing. Sounds the same as some of the "commercial" type sealants.



I'll sit this one out. Best of luck on this one.:hmph:



Deanski
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I believe that was Anthony Oroscoe who came up with that. It's farfetched nontheless.
 
wannafbody said:
I believe that was Anthony Oroscoe who came up with that. It's farfetched nontheless.
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It was Anthony and it was not a statement of fact, but a speculation and attempt to describe an unusual phenomenon



"I've seen a few threads on other forums where people have stated that swirls came back after using Menzerna but that it was flawless when they had finished. So it's possible that it may temporarily swell paint. If I find out more I'll be sure to post it up."



And when asked about the misquote he said:

'Now where did I ever state that Doctor G. said this (if I did make such a statement please post where as I will surely apologize)????????? Where is the statement that Menzerna swells paint stated as "fact"? I love and use Menzerna products and always said that FP finishes down better than Optimum.'

The way you guys use his quote out of context is inaccurate. To my knowledge he has been using Menz for years and still does.
 
Yada yada...if you guys want to beat each other and parse words and fiddle around with quotes, there's some prez campaign jobs waiting for you. The product is vaporware so why don't you just wait until there is actually a product before y'all get yer shorts in a mutual bunch.
 
integritydetail said:
Sorry to hijack, but a quick question for Deanski: I looked around the site and it looks like a bunch of tunnel washers and express detailing stuff. That's not at all what I expected after your selectiveness of products. Did I go to the wrong place? I didn't see much usable info there...
Click to expand...



You get about 3 pages a month devoted to detailing, most of it stuff a good detailer should already know. I mean, c'mon, an article about how to use clay? I got their magazine for about 4 years, but other than a tip about not getting water into the center console (where the shifter is) on 1997-2001 Mercedes (shorts out the transmission control module), there was very little I read that I didn't already know or had heard here on Autopia first.



PCW&D is great for those who own tunnel washes, lube shops and coin-ops but for high end detailers, there just isn't much there. Easier for me to just check their website every once in a while.
 
Scottwax said:
You get about 3 pages a month devoted to detailing, most of it stuff a good detailer should already know. I mean, c'mon, an article about how to use clay? I got their magazine for about 4 years, but other than a tip about not getting water into the center console (where the shifter is) on 1997-2001 Mercedes (shorts out the transmission control module), there was very little I read that I didn't already know or had heard here on Autopia first.



PCW&D is great for those who own tunnel washes, lube shops and coin-ops but for high end detailers, there just isn't much there. Easier for me to just check their website every once in a while.
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Thanks Scott, I thought I went to the wrong site. I'll send my dad the link. He own's some tunnel washes and lube centers here in the Upper Cumberland and surrounding counties. He may find it more useful than I did.
 
integritydetail said:
Thanks Scott, I thought I went to the wrong site. I'll send my dad the link. He own's some tunnel washes and lube centers here in the Upper Cumberland and surrounding counties. He may find it more useful than I did.
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You are correct, it's limited to carwash owners and express detailing etc. Another market share for this product I would think.



There are "associations" that have started up for professional detailers and have tried to have "certification" type levels, but this was several years ago and do not know if this has gotten off the ground or is now a respected source for the detailing professional. I haven't followed it since it was still young.



That first started its development within PCWD in one of the articles.



Regards,

Deanski
 
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