Mike Phillips...NXT ? for you

[TortoiseAWD]

Sorry about that, killerwheels needed some answers.

Mmmm, yeah. Some answers, or a public tongue-lashing?

I will stand by the above statement. If you were to separate the clear layer of paint from the finish, as though you were working on a sheet of glass suspended in the air, only in this case the glass is the layer of clear, then a product will either make the clear coat clear, or it will dull it down. In some cases it will leave it the same. But the product your using doesn't care what's under the clear layer of paint.

I don't disagree. I'll be blunt: to my eyes, NXT made my clear coat less clear. IMO, the apparent "warmth" of NXT is at the expense of clarity. I feel NXT provides an illusion of more depth by darkening, tinting, making-less-clear (pick your verb) the clearcoat. Again, this isn't bad on dark non-metallics, it's even desireable, but it muted the "pop" from the flake on my car. I noticed a similar effect on a Laguna Blue Miata that I did last week. Three month old paint, garaged since it was re-shot. Prior to NXT, it was Laguna Blue, and had a lot of "pop" in the flake. Post NXT, it was a touch darker than the pre-NXT blue, and less flake was visible. The owner even commented on that, as the metallic in that paint is the reason he likes it so much, so I removed the NXT and tried a different product (1Z) that yielded a more pleasing look (to his eyes).



Tort

 

[Steve @ Guru]

Rather than steer this entirely off course and beat a (now famously and well-dead) dead horse, I'd like to hear the answer to killrwheels original question (the one that spawned the novel-length responses) -



How do these specialized and "fine" abrasives effect the layering ability of NXT?

 

[killrwheels]

Rather than steer this entirely off course and beat a (now famously and well-dead) dead horse, I'd like to hear the answer to killrwheels original question (the one that spawned the novel-length responses) -



How do these specialized and "fine" abrasives effect the layering ability of NXT?

Funny that's all I want answered and still dont have it. Is Mequires claim of layerability "flawed" or not. And does the Spray Wax contain the same " abrasives, specialized or not "

or a public tongue-lashing?

I clearly have gotten under your skin, Mike. I believe that everyone deserves the best products from the best customer service. I have been a supporter and advocate. When I first started discussing Pinnacle Soveran, nobody used it. Since then, over half the board has used and continues to use it. Autogeek has been a vendor that gives us a forum discount, and I share it with new and old alike. (I work in the Financial Industry, not car care in case you thought I was biased) Everyone deserves a benefit when/if available !



I expect you to like NXT (they pay your salary correct, and I am sure you own co. stock thus your retirement and investments hinge on your products ) and I am glad some others enjoy it. It does better with darker cars, dont know why and dont care. Single stage, dual stage, clearcoat .... blah ... blah .... blah On silver it did not bring out the reflectivity that is typically associated with sealants, but made the car appear white from angles. (I live in Fl where sun is present 90% of the time) . Sorry, it did not work as I anticipated nor as Mequires suggested.



I like the fact that you stand your ground, and that you clearly do your homework. But you are skating the questions at hand . I am asking for you to clearly let me know if I am wrong (as well as some others) in that your layerability claim is incorrect. And could the missing piece be that Spray Wax is both intended, and the only way to layer the NXT product ??



I like your boat, and I like you even if you drive a Chevette. My Corvette doesnt make me a better person !



PS. Might wanna watch the comments about your age, we all know the older we get, the more stubborn we are to change.

:wavey I still like you and your work ethics, but I dont like NXT, sorry !!

 

[Mike_Phillips]

Funny that's all I want answered and still dont have it. Is Mequires claim of layerability "flawed" or not. And does the Spray Wax contain the same " abrasives, specialized or not "

And, what is your definition of "Layering", and can you list some products that you believe layer according to your definition of the word?



I just want to make sure were talking the same language.



Mike

I clearly have gotten under your skin, Mike.

Not even, I just wanted to make sure everyone understood where you were coming from.



Mike

 

[Mike_Phillips]

How do these specialized and "fine" abrasives effect the layering ability of NXT?

Post your definition of "Layering"



And then post your list of product you believe can layser, or beter yet... post your list of products you believe can layer and you can prove in fact do layer.



That shouldn't be too hard cosidering how long you have been posting about this subject.



Mike

 

[Mike_Phillips]

PS.



Might wanna watch the comments about your age, we all know the older we get, the more stubborn we are to change.

The one thing I learned from calling on detail shops/detailers was to alwasy have an open mind. That's why I purschase the products talked about here and test them for myself. I know when people post comments about products they have never tried themselves, they are often ridculed.



Heck, if anything, I more open to new ideas than ever.



Mike

 

[killrwheels]

Post your definition of "Layering"

By layering, I mean the ability to put on an additional layer that benefits or enhances the previous layer, without removing the first layer THROUGH THE CHEMICALS/ ABRASIVES CONTAINED WITHIN SAID PRODUCT.



Klasse SG, Zaino Z2 .... are products that come to mind. Maybe Wolfgang and even Menzerna FMJ , time will tell.

I know when people post comments about products they have never tried themselves, they are often ridculed.

Would a picture of both bottles (Spray and Tech Wax) along with todays newspaper help you. Also email Jason over at autogeek, I will allow him to send you a copy of my invoice. Calling me a liar, only be-littles you IMHO. And I dont feel ridiculed , but I find you very evasive and that usually means you have something to hide ! My guess is that you will now downplay my list of products as layerable, when all I want to know is about your holy grail NXT. :nixweiss

 

[imported_Intermezzo]

Post your definition of "Layering"



And then post your list of product you believe can layser, or beter yet... post your list of products you believe can layer and you can prove in fact do layer.

Mike, no flames intended, but since killerwheels is asking about the layering comments written on the NXT bottle, don't you think it's fair to just give your honest interpretation of what that means without him having to give you his official definition of layering?



Above all else, I think Autopians appreciate sincere, honest answers as opposed to any spin or play with definitions or words.



I believe Zaino and Klasse SG layer pretty well. As for proof, that would be difficult, but in my experience, 3 "layers" of Zaino will last almost twice as long as a single coat of Z. I know that doesn't prove anything and I can sing all day long about how the three layers shined better than the single layer, but that still wouldn't be proof. However, what works for me works for me and the durability spread was compelling enough....at least for me. That combined with a basic understanding of how these two products work leads me to *believe* they layer relatively effectively. Furthermore, DavidB is a person who's advice I highly respect and he's also been a strong advocate of the layering ability of certain paint sealants.

 

[Mike_Phillips]

Mike, no flames intended, but since killerwheels is asking about the layering comments written on the NXT bottle, don't you think it's fair to just give your honest interpretation of what that means without him having to give you his official definition of layering?

Well I think the issue is who's definition of layering do you want to use. So instead of guessing what he meant, I thought it would help if he would post his definition. Is that fair?

Above all else, I think Autopians appreciate sincere, honest answers as opposed to any spin or play with definitions or words.

That's my goal, and I hope my history of answering questions here and on other forums. You have read many of my posts here on Autopia, would you say I have a history of spinning answers? Seriously?



How about anyone else? Is there any Autopian that thinks I spin answers? I write long answers, but that’s because in most cases, I’m doing my best to answer questions thoroughly and completely. I know I get e-mails and PM’s from people all the time thanking me for answering questions and explaining products and procedures on Autopia and elsewhere.



I know I read posts from other people that don't live up to those high standards, but as for me, I sincerely and honestly try my best to answer questions without spin or playing around with definitions. If nothing else, Bill Clinton taught us that words mean things, remember when he asked what the definition of the word "is"... is?



(I think that's called dancing on the head of a pin)

I believe Zaino and Klasse SG layer pretty well. As for proof, that would be difficult, but in my experience, 3 "layers" of Zaino will last almost twice as long as a single coat of Z. I know that doesn't prove anything and I can sing all day long about how the three layers shined better than the single layer, but that still wouldn't be proof. However, what works for me works for me and the durability spread was compelling enough....at least for me. That combined with a basic understanding of how these two products work leads me to *believe* they layer relatively effectively. Furthermore, DavidB is a person who's advice I highly respect and he's also been a strong advocate of the layering ability of certain paint sealants.

Just for the record, I did some "Layering Testing" lately. Just for fun, I tried the black permanent felt marker test on paint and then I tested 7 waxes, or sealants, or polishes[/b].



Out of the products I tested, 2 of them did not remove the black felt pen marks. One was Pinnacle, the other was Klasse SG, the others all removed the black felt pen marks including Tech Wax and Zaino Z2.



Take from that what you will, those were my results.



Fair and unbiased. All test performed equally.



I also tried this little test. I poured some Klasse out on a piece of saran wrap and smeared it around to form a nice even layer. I then allowed it to dry for several days. I then peeled it off the saran wrap and inspected it. It was a flexible, solid, film. It was not clear however. So assuming Klasse SG is layerable, which it appears to be, from what I saw with my own two eyes, the layer of class was not clear, it was milky looking. I'm just guessing here but wouldn't you get the same results if you applied layer after layer of this product on your paint? In other words, your finish should not become more and more clear, but less and less clear. Because it doesn't star out clear and it doesn't remain clear after it dries.



Now were back to how clear does a product make a finish, especially with multiple coats.



By the way Intermezzo, did you see over on CorvetteForum I invited you to the North County Corvette Club Detail Day at Meguiar's on April 3rd?



http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/calendar.php?s=&action=getinfo&eventid=4



It is an overfull class, but we can always make room for one more Autopian. You might also consider the Viper Detail Day at Meguiar's, I'll be doing a before and after on a black Viper just for the event.



I too respect DavidB’s opinion and he is the one that first told me about Klasse SG actually forming a real layer.



Mike

 

[Mike_Phillips]

Would a picture of both bottles (Spray and Tech Wax) along with todays newspaper help you. Also email Jason over at autogeek, I will allow him to send you a copy of my invoice. Calling me a liar, only be-littles you IMHO. And I dont feel ridiculed , but I find you very evasive and that usually means you have something to hide ! My guess is that you will now downplay my list of products as layerable, when all I want to know is about your holy grail NXT. :nixweiss

You know killrwheels, your twisting my words, I never said you didn't have the products, I assumed you did. All I was doing was saying I don't ever comment on products I haven't personally tried.



Don't you think your post above went a little overboard?



Sheesh....



Me evasive? :nixweiss Since when?



MIke

 

[Mike_Phillips]

By layering, I mean the ability to put on an additional layer that benefits or enhances the previous layer, without removing the first layer THROUGH THE CHEMICALS/ ABRASIVES CONTAINED WITHIN SAID PRODUCT.



Klasse SG, Zaino Z2 .... are products that come to mind. Maybe Wolfgang and even Menzerna FMJ , time will tell.

Thank you for defining the word layer, layering and layerable for me.



Let me see If I completely understand,

Layer, Layering, Layerable



The ability to put on an additional layer that benefits or enhances the previous layer, without removing the first layer through the chemicals, or abrasives contained within a said product.

Now, if you don’t mind, I would like to wait and see if Steve would like to add his 2 cents on the subject.



I would also appreciate everyone who has ever had an opinion on what the word Layer, Layering, and Layerable, means, to please chime in and lets all get on the same page.



And… can we please keep it nice? No name calling, or twisting of words. Lets just discuss this like Autopians and civil human beings. And when were done, perhaps we can all agree on the definition of the word Layer, and products that can actually be layered.



Then, we can discuss if this is actually a good thing.



Mike

 

[killrwheels]

Me evasive? :nixweiss Since when? MIke [/B]

Your right, you just plain wont answer the simple question. Is NXT layerable or is it being removed with each additional coat, due to is specialized abrasives ?? Does Spray Wax do what Tech Wax cannot, because it may not have the same specialized cleaners ?? Its an honest question with no hidden agenda. I suspect, and others on this very board have stated that it is NOT LAYERABLE.



Like it or not, I still have a bottle to use and the wifes car is a testing bed moving forward. (Its only seen Klasse AIO, SG since new) . Although if you will test my bottle (maybe its contaminated, or a bad batch) and promise to send me a refund/ replacement , I will forward it to you. Maybe you can get me some wash so I can try that also .... I promise I wont use it on the toolbox any longer !

:shocked

 

[JustinR32]

Yeah!



(Mosca settles in front of the screen with his popcorn)

 

[Mike_Phillips]

LOL! :xyxthumbs



Thanks for adding some levity to the thread Tom.



I love a good discussion as well as anyone, but there is no need for name calling or twisting words.



Now... how about sharing that popcorn!



Mike

 

[Steve @ Guru]

I shouldn't have to provide my definition of layering, as I'm not the one who asked or has to answer the question. I'm simply a bystander in this tiff - but it seems to me that if you (Mike) have indicated in the past that the product can be layered, you should know the definition of layering, right?



My beef comes from the wild claims on the packaging about "Xtreme, synthetic polymer protection," and "Eliminates fine scratches and swirls," (yet previously was said to contain "No abrasives" - but that's since been amended). I've only gotten a few weeks from it, as have others... I know some have gotten "months" of protection, so you're right - everyone's results may vary.



Spin? That's a tough one to answer, and probably best saved for a whole other show...

 

[JustinR32]

I'm wit' geek on this one, not the post right above but the one about prep. I think that a car looks its absolute best right BEFORE applying the final coat, and that the best final coat is not the one that IMPROVES the finish the MOST, but the one that DEGRADES it the LEAST.



I'll add another question, though; why would one WANT a product to layer? And, why WOULDN't one want a product to layer? I think that that will help to define the argument a little bit better, because what I really think is that there is a difference in manufacturer's beliefs as to whether it's better to contain cleaners, or better to not contain cleaners.





Tom

 

[imported_Intermezzo]

Well I think the issue is who's definition of layering do you want to use. So instead of guessing what he meant, I thought it would help if he would post his definition. Is that fair?

Fair enough!

That's my goal, and I hope my history of answering questions here and on other forums. You have read many of my posts here on Autopia, would you say I have a history of spinning answers? Seriously?



How about anyone else? Is there any Autopian that thinks I spin answers? I write long answers, but that’s because in most cases, I’m doing my best to answer questions thoroughly and completely. I know I get e-mails and PM’s from people all the time thanking me for answering questions and explaining products and procedures on Autopia and elsewhere.



I know I read posts from other people that don't live up to those high standards, but as for me, I sincerely and honestly try my best to answer questions without spin or playing around with definitions. If nothing else, Bill Clinton taught us that words mean things, remember when he asked what the definition of the word "is"... is?

Seriously?? eh, well, you and I haven't had the best of histories here so maybe I shouldn't get into that.....BUT..you're definitely not Bill Clinton! That would be the ultimate blow! Hehe. Maybe "spin" was too strong of a word and I certainly didn't want you to feel the need to defend yourself, but if sorta felt as if you were skirting the issue. But I appreciate your explanation above and it's much clearer to me now. Yes, you write long answers but that's cuz you have a lot to share and for the most part, I do appreciate your knowledge.

By the way Intermezzo, did you see over on CorvetteForum I invited you to the North County Corvette Club Detail Day at Meguiar's on April 3rd?



I too respect DavidB’s opinion and he is the one that first told me about Klasse SG actually forming a real layer.



Mike

Absolutely! I saw it...and thank you very much for inviting me. I responded earlier today to your invite that I think I might very well take you up on your offer. I appreciate it very much. (Nothing like the casual acceptance of a polite invitation, eh? j/k)



Yes, David's been an advocate of the layering properties of KSG, but according to some side by side tests he's posted here in the past, he's also a believer in the layering ability of Zaino. In any event, your test was very interesting.

 

[rstype]

Here, I'll try to answer. Mike gave you his opinion (along with some public tongue-lashing), and I'll give you mine.



NXT doesn't layer.

The abrasives in NXT will remove anything under it.

There are products that do layer.

The End.



Okay, I'm off to the pool to swim...

 

[Steve @ Guru]

I layer a product primarily to improve the standard deviation and to ensure total coverage. If I happen to be using a product that is capable of cross-linking, I believe additional layers can assist with protection, because as I understand it, certain protectants apply as if they were a piece of "chain link fence." (Obviously that's an extreme example, but it's the first one that came to mind)



By increasing layers, I might be able minimize the "gaps" in the chain link fence (so to speak, and again, this is only specific to some products), which improves deviation which improves appearance, and hopefully improves durability.



Hack, slice and respond at will.

 

[imported_Tony]

layering: IMHO, does the surface look better and last longer after additional application! I dont care if the solvent in the product removes or cleans some of the first because that is a different question (cleaning). Some products may look better and last longer after multiple application. Have many different application per product is a different question. If it looks better and last longer after an additional application then it did something.