n2_space
New member
??? Your thoughts? I said BS, I find MF's to be better and less likely to swirl. :nixweiss
MF's a gimmick? What someone is trying to tell me...
- Thread starter n2_space
- Start date
??? Your thoughts? I said BS, I find MF's to be better and less likely to swirl. :nixweiss
To me science and specifications are a helpful starting point. The results in real world application is what matters in the end. Someone can say my terry towels are technically better than my MFs all they want. I know from first hand experience that the MFs I use are better than the terry towels I use, in my application.
I think personal experience will tell you what you need to know.
I think personal experience will tell you what you need to know.
n2_space
New member
Nikon said:
I agree, I am just wanting some more support and facts or what have you to bring into the discussion
Sorry, I don't have anything to offer on the scientific or technical front. The extent of my scientific analysis of this is rather cave-man like;
Mmmmm, micro fiber towel . . . soffffttt,
Oooooo, Mmmmm, don't leave scratch on paint
Eeeeeegh, remove product better
Aahhhhgh, Micro fiber goooood
(My spelling of cave-man sounds may not be correct since I seem to have misplaced my cave-man pronunciation dictionary)
Mmmmm, micro fiber towel . . . soffffttt,
Oooooo, Mmmmm, don't leave scratch on paint
Eeeeeegh, remove product better
Aahhhhgh, Micro fiber goooood
(My spelling of cave-man sounds may not be correct since I seem to have misplaced my cave-man pronunciation dictionary)
My experience so far has been that this isn't true, but more scientific evidence is obviously needed.
The other thing that's wierd is that if MF was supposed to improve the feel of the cloth, they failed miserably. The Pakshak waffle weaves are the only ones I'll touch without gloves on. I don't even like to pick them up because they give me the heebie-jeebies. MF's feel disgusting and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way...
The other thing that's wierd is that if MF was supposed to improve the feel of the cloth, they failed miserably. The Pakshak waffle weaves are the only ones I'll touch without gloves on. I don't even like to pick them up because they give me the heebie-jeebies. MF's feel disgusting and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way...
topnotchtouch
New member
n2_space said:
It is simple, he seems to be comparing apparel grade MF which has no nap to what we use. The terry nap in MF works exactly the same way it does on cotton terry towels. As someone else said, real word results contradict what this person said.
I also think this person has a stake in cotton as most MF is made overseas if I am not mistaken. Seems to me it is not good for the US textile industry. Anyway sounds like he is biased.
He is only partially correct, you need to understand a few things. First of all comparing MF to Terry makes no sense at all because microfiber is a yarn size and terry is a weave. Thus you can have a MF terry or a MF waffle, or a MF denim for that matter.
Remember also that MF can be man made (i.e. polyester) or natural (i.e. cellulose.)
A densely woven MF cloth is not a good idea for car finishes, nor is a densly woven fabric such as denim, you need a fabric that is woven (or possibly knit) so that it's characteristics work for you. Terrycloth is best for polishing, buffing, and dusting, while a waffle weave is best for drying. Combining microfiber yarns with thicker yarns gives you the best of both worlds. Also my personal opinion is that natural fibers work better than man mades.
Microfiber yarns are not a crock, it is just not understood by most people. They think MF is all that is important. I've seen MF that can cause very bad scratches and I've seen non MF soft as butter. You really do need to look at the complete "package" so to speak.
As far as the fabric retaining dirt particles at the surface, that has nothing to do with whether or not something is MF, it has to do with the weave of the fabric.
Remember also that MF can be man made (i.e. polyester) or natural (i.e. cellulose.)
A densely woven MF cloth is not a good idea for car finishes, nor is a densly woven fabric such as denim, you need a fabric that is woven (or possibly knit) so that it's characteristics work for you. Terrycloth is best for polishing, buffing, and dusting, while a waffle weave is best for drying. Combining microfiber yarns with thicker yarns gives you the best of both worlds. Also my personal opinion is that natural fibers work better than man mades.
Microfiber yarns are not a crock, it is just not understood by most people. They think MF is all that is important. I've seen MF that can cause very bad scratches and I've seen non MF soft as butter. You really do need to look at the complete "package" so to speak.
As far as the fabric retaining dirt particles at the surface, that has nothing to do with whether or not something is MF, it has to do with the weave of the fabric.
imported_rachelanne16
New member
I am just starting out and I was very dubious about MF. I am very much a 'natural fabrics' kind of person. But after buffing Klasse AIO and BF-AFPP using 100% cotton with unsatisfactory results, then using MF with great results, I am a now a convert.
I don't know how they compare in overall gentleness to the paint, but there are two area in which MF excels; removing product and drying. The construction of MF makes it a lot more grippy and absorbent than cotton terry.
In you search for 'scientific' ammo, you might check out Microfiber - What's the big deal? at the CMA site.
I don't know how they compare in overall gentleness to the paint, but there are two area in which MF excels; removing product and drying. The construction of MF makes it a lot more grippy and absorbent than cotton terry.
In you search for 'scientific' ammo, you might check out Microfiber - What's the big deal? at the CMA site.
imported_phareous
New member
I agree microfiber feels weird...almost like it is trying to pry your skin off. But other than that...they are very nice 
Scott P
New member
It's not the MF that feels weird. It's just that the fabric is grabbing all of the small dead skin you have on your fingers. Rub it on your cheek if yo want to see how soft it is.
hallo gallo said:
Two points here: first of all you are comparing MF and Cotton which makes no sense at all since there is cotton MF available on the market. MF is the size of the yarn, NOT what it is made of!
The second point is that the CMA site is wrong, sorry guys but MF is not strictly a man made fiber of poly or nylon.
:LOLOL :rofl :roflNikon said:
n2_space, I think that guy is confused or mislead.
Manufacturers don't claim MF towels are better because of his large dirt/small dirt comment. It's the fabric itself that is gentler when it's perfectly clean. At least, that's how I understand it. We all know polyester blended cotton towels can scratch, right? And yet polyester, when spun into microfiber, seems incapable of scratching. I believe it's also these tiny MF fibers that make them so good for cleaning and buffing. Compared to cotton fibers on a microscopic scale, they're like bundles of brush fibers instead of large, round, smooth "noodles". (Someone smack me if I'm wrong here. 
)Also, I don't really see how leaving dirt on the upper surface of the cloth would be harder to clean than having the dirt migrate down into the nap.
imported_rachelanne16
New member
DFTowel said:
Although it may not be technically correct to a person with a background in textiles, I think the acronym "MF" is generally accepted to mean polyester.
It is just easier to type "MF" than "0.02 denier split-fiber polyester-polyamide fabric," but your point is a good one and I (speaking only for myself) appreciate learning more about auto care materials.
imported_memnuts
New member
LOL!!
NozeBleedSpeed mail me all your MF's. I'll send you a 75% off all MS products coupon.
NozeBleedSpeed mail me all your MF's. I'll send you a 75% off all MS products coupon.
SK2003TypeS
New member
LOL
BS = BS#@!
MS = More S#@!
PHD = Piled Higher & Deeper
No offense to those with degrees
This Bachelor in Textile Technology must've been sleeping through several of his/her classes.
The facts:
Break down the word microfiber - micro (very small) fiber.
Microfiber is defined as a fiber having a fineness of less than 1 denier. Denier is defined as the mass (weight) in grams 9000 meters of a given fiber. Thus a fiber of 1 Denier is 1g/9000m. Some microfibers being produces have a denier of 0.001, which is 1000 times finer than a fiber of 1 denier. Naturally occurring Cotton is in the area of about 30 denier. Naturally occurring silk is in the area of 10 denier.
As a reference: The nylon fiber used in luggage and backpacks is typically 600 denier. The nylon used in hosiery (pantyhose) is typically about 15 denier. For nylon to be considered MicroFiber, it must be < 1 denier. Typically, it would be much, much finer than 1 denier for Autopian applications.
Microfiber describes only the fiber used, and has nothing to do with yarn or fabric construction. It is possible to construct similar fabrics from normal fiber and from microfiber, but they will have vastly different characteristics.
Similarly, microfibers of different polymers (Polyester, PolyAcrylic, Nylon) will also have different characteristics from each other, even at the same denier.
Microfiber can only by man-made, as cotton/wool/flax/ramie does not naturally occur in fineness anywhere near, much less under, 1 denier.
The ability to scratch a surface has to do with both the natural hardness of a product, and with it's rigidity. Microfiber has similar physical characteristics as the normal fiber, but because it is much finer (greater length-to-width ratio), it is much less rigid. Take for example Glass: A shard of broken glass is very rigid, and can scratch some surfaces very easily. A strand of fiberglass has the same chemical composition, but is much more flexible than a shard of glass, and will bend or deflect before scratching a similar surface.
Because of its inherent fineness, each gram of microfiber has many times more surface area than a gram of the same polymer in non-microfiber form. This means that there are many hundreds or thousands of times more fibers in a MF fabric than in a similar non-MF fabric.
This additional surface area of the fibers is what gives MF fabrics their usefullness for Autopian needs. It is what allows an MF cloth to absorb so much more water (surface tension holding more water to the much greater surface area of the fiber), and what allows MF cloths to buff off waxes/sealants so easily (think 4 razor blades versus the old single blade).
Googling for Microfiber will yield far more info for those who are interested.
Yes, laundering an MF fabric is more difficult that laundering a similarly constructed fabric of normal fiber, but that is not truly applicable to what we are using it for.
If you wipe your dirty car down with an MF cloth, you will have dirt that will most likely remain embedded in the fabric. Question is: After visiting this site a couple of times, who would do such a thing?
Typically, Autopians are using the MF cloths to wipe down a previously washed (thus perfectly clean) car.
It is not applicable to compare specifications/requirements for apparel and for cleaning. These are two different uses, two different fabric constructions, and two different behaviours of the products.
I sincerely hope that the BS in TT didn't get their degree from the same institution that issued my BS in Textile Chemistry. It would concern me greatly for the future of our industry - which already has enough problems (severely threatened by foreign competition).
PS: Yes, I am a MF user for all Autopian applications!
The facts:
Break down the word microfiber - micro (very small) fiber.
Microfiber is defined as a fiber having a fineness of less than 1 denier. Denier is defined as the mass (weight) in grams 9000 meters of a given fiber. Thus a fiber of 1 Denier is 1g/9000m. Some microfibers being produces have a denier of 0.001, which is 1000 times finer than a fiber of 1 denier. Naturally occurring Cotton is in the area of about 30 denier. Naturally occurring silk is in the area of 10 denier.
As a reference: The nylon fiber used in luggage and backpacks is typically 600 denier. The nylon used in hosiery (pantyhose) is typically about 15 denier. For nylon to be considered MicroFiber, it must be < 1 denier. Typically, it would be much, much finer than 1 denier for Autopian applications.
Microfiber describes only the fiber used, and has nothing to do with yarn or fabric construction. It is possible to construct similar fabrics from normal fiber and from microfiber, but they will have vastly different characteristics.
Similarly, microfibers of different polymers (Polyester, PolyAcrylic, Nylon) will also have different characteristics from each other, even at the same denier.
Microfiber can only by man-made, as cotton/wool/flax/ramie does not naturally occur in fineness anywhere near, much less under, 1 denier.
The ability to scratch a surface has to do with both the natural hardness of a product, and with it's rigidity. Microfiber has similar physical characteristics as the normal fiber, but because it is much finer (greater length-to-width ratio), it is much less rigid. Take for example Glass: A shard of broken glass is very rigid, and can scratch some surfaces very easily. A strand of fiberglass has the same chemical composition, but is much more flexible than a shard of glass, and will bend or deflect before scratching a similar surface.
Because of its inherent fineness, each gram of microfiber has many times more surface area than a gram of the same polymer in non-microfiber form. This means that there are many hundreds or thousands of times more fibers in a MF fabric than in a similar non-MF fabric.
This additional surface area of the fibers is what gives MF fabrics their usefullness for Autopian needs. It is what allows an MF cloth to absorb so much more water (surface tension holding more water to the much greater surface area of the fiber), and what allows MF cloths to buff off waxes/sealants so easily (think 4 razor blades versus the old single blade).
Googling for Microfiber will yield far more info for those who are interested.
Yes, laundering an MF fabric is more difficult that laundering a similarly constructed fabric of normal fiber, but that is not truly applicable to what we are using it for.
If you wipe your dirty car down with an MF cloth, you will have dirt that will most likely remain embedded in the fabric. Question is: After visiting this site a couple of times, who would do such a thing?
Typically, Autopians are using the MF cloths to wipe down a previously washed (thus perfectly clean) car.
It is not applicable to compare specifications/requirements for apparel and for cleaning. These are two different uses, two different fabric constructions, and two different behaviours of the products.
I sincerely hope that the BS in TT didn't get their degree from the same institution that issued my BS in Textile Chemistry. It would concern me greatly for the future of our industry - which already has enough problems (severely threatened by foreign competition).
PS: Yes, I am a MF user for all Autopian applications!