Megs D300/MF - buffer trails

dschribs

dschribs

New member
I just used D300 on a MF cutting disc for the first time this weekend. I'm working on my red 2001 Pontiac Trans Am WS-6 (see my avatar). I have only had the car for a short while and this is the first opportunity I have had to remove some very obvious micro marring and swirling the prior owner had managed to instill into the paint. Overall though, the paint was in pretty decent shape.



My process was as follows:



- D300/MF cutting disc on my Griots polisher (speed 4)

- Megs 205 on a blue Uber final polish pad (speed 5)

- Red Moose Glaze

- Carnauba Moose Wax



To make sure I had the hang of the MF system, I did a test spot on the rear spoiler - the rear spoilers are HUGE on these cars so it was the perfect pallet to test my process. After using the D300/MF cutting disc and 205 on the blue Uber pad I backed the car out into the sun to check things out. Everything looked great. I was extremely pleased. It looked as though I had the processed nailed... Until I saw the hood today out in the direct sunlight. I could clearly see evenly spaced buffer trails from where I had used the D300 on the hood.



The WS6 cars are a little different from the standard Trans Am. A company called ASC (American Sunroof Corporation) turned stock Pontiac Firebirds into Trans Am Ram Air WS6s from 1998-2002. Cars were shipped to ASC from Pontiac’s assembly plant where the fiberglass ram-air hoods and WS6 components were installed. I'm wondering if perhaps the paint process for the hood at ASC was slightly different then the paint process GM had for the rest of the car and that's why I see these buffer trails ONLY on the hood.



I actually spoke to Kevin Brown about this issue and we do have a plan of attack. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the sun will be out for the next few days in CT and since I only notice these buffer trails in direct sunlight (not under the halogens OR the incandescents in my garage) I will need a few days to see if we are on the right track.



Has anyone experienced these types of buffer trails when using the cutting part of the Meg's MF system? I'm wondering maybe my process after using the D300 should have been "stepped up" a bit and perhaps I should have used a LC white or even orange pad with the 205. Maybe the blue Uber pad was just too soft to remove the slight marring the D300/MF left on the hood...
 
How were you cleaning you pads & how were you priming them??



Is the paint on the hood softer (not factory) and did it have more defects prior to correction?
 
David Fermani said:
How were you cleaning you pads & how were you priming them??



Is the paint on the hood softer (not factory) and did it have more defects prior to correction?
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In terms of the D300/MF, I primed the pad with a small amount of product & used three drops of polish each time I started polishing. I used compressed air to clean the MF pads after every panel. On the hood I probably cleaned the pad about a half dozen times. In terms of the 205, I primed the pad via the KBM and cleaned them frequently with a brush.



I'm honestly not so sure if the paint is softer on the hood. There were no real indications that it was any different than any of the other panels prior to polishing the car. It did have some defects but no more or less than any other panel of the car. I do believe though that the hood had a different paint process than the rest of the car since it was added during the WS6 conversion at the ASC factory.



D&D Auto Detail said:
Did you inspect the hood in direct sunlight after D300, or M205?
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I did not inspect the hood in direct sunlight after either process. I did inspect the rear spoiler in the sun after application of each product and things looked fine with no sign of these "buffer trails". I inspected the entire car yesterday in the sun and the hood is the only body panel that exhibits these defects.
 
The blue Uber pads must be pretty soft if they didn't remove the holograms with 205, but the TA paint is definitely finicky, easy to mar, difficult to correct. I would try the white pad with the 205 and see if that finishes it down. I personally have not had any issues with MF pads and holograms.
 
If you are using a griot DA, ime, the least aggressive pad for any correcting/polishing is LC white or B&S green. In fact as long as the paintwork has a medium and above hardness, finishing should be done with LC Orange or even B&S yellow. Any less aggressive pad will not give sufficient cut. Imo, no point using anything lesser than LC white unless you are using a rotary or waxing with DA.



If MF/d300 combo is causing haziness, I would rate the paintwork hardness to be about fairly soft-medium.
 
I'm not familiar with the the blue pad you mentioned. Any GM i've done has hard-as-nails paint and I attack it with a purple foam wool/105 then tangerine with 205. (Flex DA)



Last WS6 I did I used D300 on a Surbuff pad, followed by a CG green hex pad and 301-came out great.



It's very possible that the hood was repainted, hell it could be an aftermarket carbon fiber, not the ASC plastic one. You just need to have more pads/chemicals in your arsenal to get the perfect outcome as each car's panel might need different approaches.



micro marring is typical with your cutting pass. If your getting buffer trails in your finishing pass, try to back the speed down on your final swipes during a pass. Be sure to use light pressure (let the machine do the work, as the GG is quite torquey)
 
I look forward to hearing the results achieved once you run the test we discussed on the phone.



No need to be concerned with the paint type or hardness at this point. Don't worry about what you don't have in your arsenal (or buying more stuff just yet). Controlling the abraded paint residue is likely the key to optimizing polishing results, and that can be done with the products you already possess.



I am confident you'll have a great outcome.
 
dschribs said:
I did not inspect the hood in direct sunlight after either process. I did inspect the rear spoiler in the sun after application of each product and things looked fine with no sign of these "buffer trails". I inspected the entire car yesterday in the sun and the hood is the only body panel that exhibits these defects.
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Then you cant be 100% sure its from D300, right?



Either way, you're in good hands with Kevin.
 
Are you sure you created the swirls with the buffing process and they were not there before? The reason I ask is I have a 99 Pewer WS6 and I have swirls under the clear clear. It drives me nuts. They have been there since it was new. The rest of the car is flawless except forthe ASC painted WS6 hood.
 
Can you post pictures?



Generally, even on soft paint, D300 and an MF cutting disc should finish out well so its weird you would have problems with what usually is rock hard paint.
 
While meg's guarantees no holograms or marring with d300, some paints it will no matter what. It sounds like you need an intermediate polishing step with a harder pad (such as a LC tangerine, orange, or white pad.) Blue is about the same as LC black and is more of a final polish pad.
 
I wouldn't trust the apparent results from the M205 without (effective, and that doesn't mean "IPA wipe" :grinno: ) oil-stripping. Similarly, sometimes the M205 oils dissipate after a while, revealing flaws you weren't previously aware of.
 
tonipieleanu said:
Are you sure the holograms aren't from the Clearkote CMW? It tends to sweat and re-haze sometimes.
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+1. Great wax, but usually you have to go back over it about 10 minutes after you first remove it since it can re-haze.
 
Scottwax said:
+1. Great wax, but usually you have to go back over it about 10 minutes after you first remove it since it can re-haze.
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As my Father used to say, well I'll be a monkeys uncle..I had an opportunity to get out to the garage tonight and was barely able to see the "defects" on the hood with just the incandescents lit up. After reading this post I thought it was worth a try so I thoroughly cleaned the hood with Megs 34 followed by some Optimum quick detailer and it does indeed look like this may have cleared things up. Hopefully we'll get some sun here in CT tomorrow and I can pull the car out of the garage and give it a full once over in the sunlight. I would have NEVER thought the marks on the hood were from my LSP. Just never occurred to me that a wax could leave marks that were so noticable espcially since I was so careful in completely removing every bit of wax I applied. This was the first time I have used CMW so I didn't realize that it had a tendency to haze back over like it did. Hopefully all looks good when it finally stops raining...
 
Ironically, as I've always been told it's not possible to induce holograms with a DA, I was a DA induce holograms yesterday, and with Megs MF cutting disc / D300 too. I watched his procedure and it wasn't keeping the pad flat, but putting more pressure towards the nose of the DA, slightly lifting the rear, if that makes sense. So yes, it IS possible.
 
RZJZA80 said:
Ironically, as I've always been told it's not possible to induce holograms with a DA, I was a DA induce holograms yesterday, and with Megs MF cutting disc / D300 too. I watched his procedure and it wasn't keeping the pad flat, but putting more pressure towards the nose of the DA, slightly lifting the rear, if that makes sense. So yes, it IS possible.
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Holograms, also known as buffer trails or buffer swirls, are formed by the improper use of a high speed rotary buffer, poor pad/product choice, or the overall lack of polishing knowledge. Holograms are simply micro scratches instilled into your vehicle’s paint by the fixed circular rotation of a rotary polisher combined with an aggressive pad and or polish.



While a DA can leave behind similar looking marks, the random orbital movement of the machine still makes them different. ;)



Usually if you are getting marks like this it's because the pad isn't fully primed, technique, or its sensitive paint.
 
RaskyR1 said:
Holograms, also known as buffer trails or buffer swirls, are formed by the improper use of a high speed rotary buffer, poor pad/product choice, or the overall lack of polishing knowledge. Holograms are simply micro scratches instilled into your vehicle’s paint by the fixed circular rotation of a rotary polisher combined with an aggressive pad and or polish.



While a DA can leave behind similar looking marks, the random orbital movement of the machine still makes them different. ;)



Usually if you are getting marks like this it's because the pad isn't fully primed, technique, or its sensitive paint.
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Yes I know how they are caused and what they are and it's generally with a rotary. What I'm saying is I saw for myself as it happened with the MF pad and a DA. To me, it looked just like a rotary hologram. Once I had him go over it again, keeping the pad flat, it wasn't an issue. I still say it's not only possible with a rotary but with a DA also.
 
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