Makita PO5000C

Not in Canada (EdLancer is posting from Montreal). The Flex polishers are very expensive in Canada; the Makita equipment seems to be priced along the exchange rate. The Flex units, for example an XC 3401 is $C506, and it is fairly reasonable to expect the Makita to come in at $C350-400. The XFE7-150 is $C549.
 
Accumulator said:
Wonder how it finishes out in FORCED...for the life of me I can never get the Flex 3401 to yield the same Final Finish as my free-rotating units (especially the Cyclo). Most people can`t see it, but I can tell exactly what/where the diff is every time.
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I`ve been running this machine for a few a few weeks now and here`s the method I use to get the best finish in forced rotation. I run my compound till the shine comes through the residue, wipe off the residue, then without putting more product, using just the worn out product that`s on the pad I go over the area again. The other option is to switch from forced to random at the end of the cycle - when the material is worn out - and go over the surface in a final pass. That is particularly good if the product is sticking to the paint, it makes wiping off much easier.

I do wish Makita had made the 5000 run the same direction as a rotary... If anyone can explain that one, I`d love to hear it.

BTW, when switching back to forced rotation, turn the pad slightly to load the gears before turning the machine back on.

WhyteWizard
 
To re iterate, PO5000C is a better Flex in every way with none of it`s cons (unless counter clockwise bothers you) then theirs one con
You can find uses for free spin mode, bit it`s not going to be a primary feature for 99% of the user
It`s secondary..so even though it doesn`t have enough counter balance to keep pad rotation..which may seem disappointing to majority...it is a feature the 3401/XCE and Mille won`t have..

If the Mille had such a feature..the rotation would be worse off as that throw is even less then the po5000c
 
The amount of energy contributed to work by the rotation of the pad on random orbital machines and the Makita in the random orbital mode can be felt by attaching a string to the edge of the pad and turning the machine on. The effort it takes to keep the pad from spinning is the force applied to the paint by a random orbital - free spinning - machine. I think the whole spinning or not spinning in random orbital machines is overblown.

WhyteWizard
 
WhyteWizard- With the products I use that "turn off the forced rotation" must be mandatory, and, unfortunately, not possible with my Flex 3401. No matter what I tried, it simply doesn`t give the same final finish as my Cyclos/etc. Being able to turn it off on this Makita sounds like a real feature to me!
 
The forced rotation polishers (Flex DC3401 and Makita P05000C) turn counter clockwise because there is an extra gear engaged. In the Flex XC3401 this gear is the ring gear that engages the gear teeth in the backside of the backing plate, and the Makita P05000C has a Youtube video showing the exact way that the two modes work, including the internal gearing.

The only way to get forced rotation polishers to rotate clockwise is to either introduce another gear, or to reverse the motor so that the motor is turning "backwards". The first would make the machine heavier, the second would make the machine incompatible (in terms of using an existing motor) with any exisiting motors that the manufacturer may already be producing.

I don`t know if anybody else has tried this, but a Flex XC3401 can be made to operate in a free spin mode. All it takes is a non-Flex backing plate (or even better, a Flex backing plate that has had the gear teeth ground off) that has a center hole that will allow the use of the XC3401`s plate mounting bolt to pass through the center. When this is done, the backing plate rotates clockwise. I can`t attest as to how well this works, because I only tries this as an experiment, not to actually polish anything. I used a Shurhold plate, but I think that a Flex backing plate withe the teeth ground down would work better, as the center spindle on an XC3401 has a stop on each side of the center bolt hole, and the Flex plate has the mating extensions on each side of the center hole, whereas the Shurhold plate is just a flat metal surface, so the amound of contact surface between the Shurhold plate and the center spindle on the XC3401 is very small. It spins fine in free air, but probably wouldn`t work well with any resistance applied to it.
 
kkritsilas said:
Not in Canada (EdLancer is posting from Montreal). The Flex polishers are very expensive in Canada; the Makita equipment seems to be priced along the exchange rate. The Flex units, for example an XC 3401 is $C506, and it is fairly reasonable to expect the Makita to come in at $C350-400. The XFE7-150 is $C549.
Click to expand...

Yup, $506 plus 15% taxes makes it close to $600, these polishers are not worth that kind of money no matter what anyone says !
On the other hand while doing my research I was a little surprised that Home Depot Canada sells Metabo and the PE 12-175 rotary sells for less than in the US ...LoL
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.pe-12-175-variable-speed-polisher.1001002401.html
 
Nothing,

You`re right, the new hybrid pads from Lake Country work like magic with this machine. I`ve been running the Makita BO6040 since 2003 so the counter clockwise spin isn`t an issue for me and the extra power and speed of the 5000 were worth selling my other machines and replacing them with two - yes two - because I can`t afford to have a machine stop mid job.

The number of cars I need to hit with a rotary has gone down significantly. Less than half and the results are the same or better.

If you`re having trouble with vibration, try Mad Grip gloves - available at Lowe`s. They have a soft rubber all over the working surface, hold things tight without needing a lot of grip and pretty much kill vibration. They aren`t sold as anti-vibe but they are the best I`ve found when it comes to that.

All the best.
 
WhyteWizard said:
The amount of energy contributed to work by the rotation of the pad on random orbital machines and the Makita in the random orbital mode can be felt by attaching a string to the edge of the pad and turning the machine on. The effort it takes to keep the pad from spinning is the force applied to the paint by a random orbital - free spinning - machine. I think the whole spinning or not spinning in random orbital machines is overblown.

WhyteWizard
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WOW !! This one went right over my head :blink:
 
WhyteWizard- Yeah, the Vibration Reducing Gloves can indeed be helpful, I`ve used them for years with other pieces of equipment. I can`t stand them, or any gloves for that matter, when polishing though, diminishes my sense of feel too much. Eh, just a personal/subjective thing...I find that gloves generally interfere with all sorts of tactile activities. It`s sorta like wearing rings; I simply can`t on a regular basis as they result in diminished performance when performing certain critical tasks.
 
WhyteWizard said:
I`ve been running this machine for a few a few weeks now and here`s the method I use to get the best finish in forced rotation. I run my compound till the shine comes through the residue, wipe off the residue, then without putting more product, using just the worn out product that`s on the pad I go over the area again. The other option is to switch from forced to random at the end of the cycle - when the material is worn out - and go over the surface in a final pass. That is particularly good if the product is sticking to the paint, it makes wiping off much easier.

I do wish Makita had made the 5000 run the same direction as a rotary... If anyone can explain that one, I`d love to hear it.

BTW, when switching back to forced rotation, turn the pad slightly to load the gears before turning the machine back on.

WhyteWizard
Click to expand...

I would not attempt this technique with a SMAT polish.
 
To "explain" the difference between the two abrasive technologies (in laymen`s terms):
DAT- Diminishing-Abrasive Technology is where the abrasives breaks down in size as the compound/polish is being worked in during the buffing cycles. The beginning of the buffing cycle the "larger-sized" abrasive particles do the initial cutting to remove the larger imperfections in the surface and then as the compound breaks down, it finishes to achieve a "finer" surface with the "smaller-sized" abrasive particles that have formed from the buffing cycle. It takes a pressure and heat, generated by the rotational motion of the buffing machine to do this, WHICH is why a high-amp electrical motor driven rotary buffing machine OR large-throw dual-actions lends themselves to this: they have the power to generate both.
3D`s AAT Rubbing Compound and Finishing Polish are examples DAT abrasives.
SMAT- Super-Micro Abrasive Technology is where the abrasives are nano-sized or engineering to a specific size to do the cutting (correcting) or polishing. They do not break down is size during the buffing cycle. They may also require Trade-Secret Oils (TSOs) that act as a lubricant to prevent micro-marring the surface. This why it may require both a compounding abrasive and then a polish abrasive to achieve that perfectly corrected finish. SMAT compounds/polishes tend to have a longer work (buffing) times, although my early version of M105 dusts extremely quickly, which I dislike, and requires water spritzing or mixing with another Meg product that has more TSOs to "resolve" this problem. Meg`s M105/M205 and M101/M100 are examples of SMAT abrasives.

Which compounds and polishes work best with this Makita PO5000C? That`s a loaded question because there are SOOO many factors to take in when correcting and/or polishing.
Here`s some things to consider:
1) Paint type; clear-coated or single stage (or lacquer if it`s really old)
2) Paint/clear-coat hardness
3) Paint thickness: new paint or previously compounded and polished paint (IE, someone removed all the orange peel)
4) Work environment ambient temperature and humidity (IE, indoors in a climate controlled facility or outdoors in the sun)
5) Pad type: open cell, closed cell, microfiber, tall pads or thin pads
6) Type of surface imperfections: Minor swirls OR random-isolated deep scratches (RIDS)
Once you take all this into account, then you have the myriad of abrasive to choose from. Let us Autopians know what works with new machine and why.

WhyteWizard:
Your suggestion to turn the backing plate to pre-load the gears (IE, taking up the free play between the gear teeth) when switching from the free mode to the forced mode is important; something I never thought of. It prevents that initial "jolt" in starting AND providing longevity to the backing plate driven teeth. You must have discovered this by trial-and-error.
 
Yes indeed, huge difference. When burnishing with 1Z High Gloss I`d literally buff it dry..."to powder"; try that with SMAT and it`ll be a whole `nother job fixing what results. Personally, I`m all about the SMAT myself as I like being able to stop abrading when the job`s done rather than having to keep going until the *polish* is done...the kind of thing that caused my painter to trash my Jag last autumn.
 
The products I`ve found work really well with the PO5000C are Menzerna 400 or whatever it`s called now, Jescar correction and finishing polish, Wizards Mystic Cut and a couple of others. The new Force pads from Lake Country are very good - except the grey pad that`s too hard for me - your mileage will vary, it just doesn`t work for me.

Also, Rupes backing plates fit right on the Makita - the hex head bolt even fits perfectly. Of course the fit isn`t perfect but I`ve had the 5 inch Rupes backing plate on one of my machines - the one I use for a couple of weeks now with no slipping or issues. I may try a 6 inch on my other machine. I switched because the scalloped edge on the Makita made it look like the backing plate was spinning clockwise while the pad looked like it was spinning counter clockwise - which, of course - it is. I found this aggravating because I like things to look like they`re doing what they are in fact doing.

This is the car I was doing yesterday and today. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=S1JRcHRvakV3QmVDWXpsN25kb21ZblBuY0VGZ3pR 1964-ATS 2500 GT

It`s going to the Quail next week.
 
The way I understand DAT and SMAT is like this:

DAT: DAT (Diminishing Abrasive Technology) abrasives start as clusters of smaller abrasive particles. Under heat and pressure, the clusters break down into their smaller abrasive particles, the heat and pressure coming from the pad oscillating and/or rotating on the paint surface. The clusters, before breaking down, act as larger abrasive particles, and so cut faster. You must continue to work the DAT abrasives until after they have broken down, or the paint surface will look hazy, because the clusters are acting as if they were much coarser grit. After the clusters do break down, they act as a much finer grit, so the paint finish will look better. The abrasive will have some lubricants and oils in it to allow for the pad, clusters and particles to slide around.

SMAT: SMAT (Sub-Micron Abrasive Technology) only has the small abrasive particles. The particles are very small (hence, sub micron) but there are a lot of them per unit of volume, so they can cut, even though they are very small. They have oils/lubricants as well, for the same reason as there is for the DAT abrasives. The major difference is that SMAT compounds/polishes don`t need to be worked to any particular point; the abrasive action is the same from the time you start until they start to dry out. There is no set limit on how early or how late you can stop working the compound/polish, because the paint finish will look the same with 2 passes as it will with 8; you only have to judge if you are happy with the correction provided.

There are good products of each type, and if used properly, both can produce excellent results. The only thing that has to be kept in mind is that DAT products will need to be worked until the clusters break down, and then a couple of passes more.
 
This is just my observation when it comes to cutting and polishing paint. The compound or polish and all the chemistry and abrasives, the pad, the motion of the machine and the amount of movement between the pad and the paint` the pressure at the point of contact, the hardness of the paint and the way the paint responds to the combination of all those factors is what makes something work or not. There are lots of combinations that work and the differences in results between people skilled in the uses of those different combinations get amounts to spit. Time, on the other hand varies widely.

When it comes to getting that last little bit of gloss, even wiping the residue off with a dry cloth can move the needle the wrong direction. That`s why no matter what combination of products, pads, machines, etc. I`m using, I think it`s a good idea to push the product long enough that there`s almost no residue being left behind while keeping just enough product in play as to not introduce any scuffing. There is a point where there`s really nothing more getting accomplished so it`s time to stop and that`s when I either wipe off the residue with as little pressure as will work or just wax over the top of it - then wax - I`m using the term "wax" here, generically, I don`t use wax - then wax again once the residue is out of the way.

Robert
 
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