M205, new M105, SIP and 106FA

Just finished a black Ford GT, and the paint was nightmarishly finicky, so I did some up-front testing. 106FF and Ultrafina with a soft pad, rotary and medium pressure finished down with the ever-slightest halograms, undectible by most people. But when I went to the M205, crazy halograms were left behind...I even played with the 2 medium pressure steps followed by 2 light pressure steps. No bueno. I also tried it via the PC and a soft pad, and heavy hazing (micromarring) was left behing; on dark colors, it's not a final finishing product for me.



I settled on the Ultrafina mixed with 106FA, as the 106FA was really "gripping" the paint like it sometimes does.
 
TH0001 said:
But a 1 step with a DA will out do a 1 step with a rotary IME and some times 2 steps with a rotary.
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I don't understand. I've never heard anybody proficient in both roary and DA use make sure a claim, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Under no circumastances, given equal amount of time buffing, will a single DA polishing step produce a better effect (remove more swirls or produce higher gloss) than a single rotary polishing step...in my opinion anyways, and I've never heard anyone else say otherwise. So I'm not sure what you are saying. Using a final finishing product, I can remove the same number of defects in 1/2 the time/ 1/2 the paqsses. Sure, you can take a DA and a compound, and though it won't leave "halograms", you'll have a noticable haze.
 
SuperBee364 said:
I hate to say this... wait, no I don't... :)



I'm using M105 for everything but finishing now. Just vary the pad according to what I need to do. Double twisted wool when I need rocks-in-a-bottle correction, down to PFW and fewer passes/less pressure. M105 with gentle pressure and PFW gives equivalent results as SIP, and requires less time and effort (on most paints, at least. As always, there are exceptions). I'm getting lazy in my old age.
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I agree for the most part with the strategy, and have found the same results. But I sometimes don't like having to clean up all that dust created by M105. Does the dust not bother you?
 
I'll post a proper opinion on this next week. I have a G35 to do that has spent some time in a body shop, should be a ton of work to get it straight.



I'll be piloting the new M105 and M205 polishes.
 
RAG said:
I agree for the most part with the strategy, and have found the same results. But I sometimes don't like having to clean up all that dust created by M105. Does the dust not bother you?
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*cough, hack, wheeze* Dust? ;)
 
TH0001 said:
But a 1 step with a DA will out do a 1 step with a rotary IME and some times 2 steps with a rotary.
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Hmmmm... Todd, have you been using non-VOC compliant polishes a lot lately?? ;)



If it was anyone but you saying this (well, you, David Fermani, Picus, Scottwax, Accumulator,RyDawg, Rick Rack, TotolandMach, Setec Astronomy... all you old -and I mean that in the most polite way- guys) I'd raise the BS flag and give it a major salute.



I'm doing something wrong in a big way when I'm using the PC, then, cause I can one step the heck out of a car with a rotary, but with a PC my one step jobs make me choose between those aweful compounding marks that PC's leave on the one end, or a good finish but no correction on the other.



Where as I can one step a car with SIP and a red foam or white finishing wool on the rotary and get some of both: good correction and a decent finish.



Don't keep this a secret, man, out with it! :secret What's your process/polish/pad for good one step DA results?
 
jdoria said:
This one is confusing Todd.



"Out do" as in mitigate hologram risk?
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In some ways, you are correct.



Example, I just did two Maserati's last week, one Q'porte in solid black and a Grand Tursimo in dark charcoal flake.



Both times I used M205 with a 3M Orange eurofoam pad with a Flex, about 30 lbs of pressure. I removed 90-95 percent of the defects, and finished to a micro marring free finish. I worked each 2x2 section for about 2-2.5 minutes or so.



If I was going to 1 step with a rotary I woud have to use a finishing polish and a finishing pad to avoid holograming. 106ff and fa didn't remove near the defects (not even close, maybe 30 percent compared to 95 percent) and both suffered from filling.



DA easily won in this case.



As a test panel, I did half of the Qporte's hood with SIP/white pad and 85RD/gray pad, and achieved slightly less correction (maybe 90%) compared to the M205/3M Orange Euro on the Flex.



Close and you could make an argument either way. But because you have to work SIP for at least a minute, maybe more, there was no time savings. I also didn't have to worry about any defect return from the Menz polishes on the soft Maserati paint.



Last weekend I did a GT2 Porsche in Midnight Blue Metallic, again M205 with a 3M orange euro foam pad for the easy victory.



I'll post some pics in a little bit (probably tomorrow).



Non-diminishing abrasive polishes seem to negate any advantages that a rotary has and have had be grabbing for a DA more and more.
 
SuperBee364 said:
Hmmmm... Todd, have you been using non-VOC compliant polishes a lot lately?? ;)



If it was anyone but you saying this (well, you, David Fermani, Picus, Scottwax, Accumulator,RyDawg, Rick Rack, TotolandMach, Setec Astronomy... all you old -and I mean that in the most polite way- guys) I'd raise the BS flag and give it a major salute.



I'm doing something wrong in a big way when I'm using the PC, then, cause I can one step the heck out of a car with a rotary, but with a PC my one step jobs make me choose between those aweful compounding marks that PC's leave on the one end, or a good finish but no correction on the other.



Where as I can one step a car with SIP and a red foam or white finishing wool on the rotary and get some of both: good correction and a decent finish.



Don't keep this a secret, man, out with it! :secret What's your process/polish/pad for good one step DA results?
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non diminishing abrasives have changed the game, IMO> (that and Kevin Brown)
 
TH0001 said:
In some ways, you are correct.



Example, I just did two Maserati's last week, one Q'porte in solid black and a Grand Tursimo in dark charcoal flake.



Both times I used M205 with a 3M Orange eurofoam pad with a Flex, about 30 lbs of pressure. I removed 90-95 percent of the defects, and finished to a micro marring free finish. I worked each 2x2 section for about 2-2.5 minutes or so.



If I was going to 1 step with a rotary I woud have to use a finishing polish and a finishing pad to avoid holograming. 106ff and fa didn't remove near the defects (not even close, maybe 30 percent compared to 95 percent) and both suffered from filling.



DA easily won in this case.



As a test panel, I did half of the Qporte's hood with SIP/white pad and 85RD/gray pad, and achieved slightly less correction (maybe 90%) compared to the M205/3M Orange Euro on the Flex.



Close and you could make an argument either way. But because you have to work SIP for at least a minute, maybe more, there was no time savings. I also didn't have to worry about any defect return from the Menz polishes on the soft Maserati paint.



Last weekend I did a GT2 Porsche in Midnight Blue Metallic, again M205 with a 3M orange euro foam pad for the easy victory.



I'll post some pics in a little bit (probably tomorrow).



Non-diminishing abrasive polishes seem to negate any advantages that a rotary has and have had be grabbing for a DA more and more.
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Cheater!!!! You used a Flex!:chuckle: The DA Flex has so much more umph to it than your run of the mill DA, it should be considered more of an unbalanced rotary than a DA. 30 pounds of pressure would stop my PC dead in it's tracks.



Now you got me real anxious to give that 205 a try... both rotary and DA. Luckily, Greg Nichols is gonna hit me up with a 205 fix this week. Hmm.. if you start to intermix drug lingo with car detailing, does it mean you have a problem? Pfffft... nah..



Edit: thanks for sharing that recipe, Todd. It sounds like a real winner.
 
I did expect non-diminishing abrasives to have an interesting effect on the business.



But I figured the effect would have been an extremely well defined, staggered correction process. Good surprise.



When you say Flex, I am assuming the 3401? (I sold mine to Twitch)
 
Our rotaries have been collecting for about a year now.....



We have also been able to one-step some cars with significant marring(note that I am not talking about a car that is hammered with RIDS, more like marring from years of improper washing/drying at home) with M205 and an orange LC pad (flat) and some times a poilshing pad.



When you need a rotary, you need a rotary, but I have found that *most* cars can be corrected with a FLEX/M105/finishing polish in less time. I also factor in less time to tape, clean up random splatter, etc.



It should also be noted that (obviously) all paint is different and some times you just can't finish it out with a da--micromarring. So many variables when talking about poishing paint! :D



BTW, nice to see you posting again RAG!
 
OK, I need to learn to read up on all the latest stuff that I missed during my winter hibernation before I open my fat mouth and firmly plant my foot therein.



After much procrastination, I'm finally caught up on all the Autopia shenanigans, products, techniques, etc. that have been covered over the last couple months while I've been (for the most part) gone.



Todd, I take back everything I said in my previous post. I've now read up about the Kevin Brown method of using M105, and I can't wait to try it!!! I also have a sample of M205 that Greg NIchols provided for me. Again, I'm anxious to try it, too, using the KB method.



Todd, I apologize for razzing you (well.. kinda ;) ) and speaking out of turn; I should have realized that you had good cause and reason for saying what you did, and what I was razzing you about. But good lord, man, do you realize what you said?? One stepping a car with a PC? You gotta give me *some* credit.... that woulda just been CRAZY TALK prior to the KB method. I really thought you'd been out in the hot Florida sun for too long when I read your post. But now, once again, I'm anxious to try yet another Todd-approved technique.



Todd, thanks for clarifying the KB method... I think what you said about varying the pressure on non=diminishing abrasives is probably key to getting the best results.



Now if you'll 'scuse me while I go make a fresh pot of very strong coffee.... there's a few more rather entertaining threads around here I need to finish reading, and I have to get them read before I head to Florida.... ;)



Edit: are you guys using the LC 4" pads with the KB method?
 
ebpcivicsi said:
Our rotaries have been collecting for about a year now.....



We have also been able to one-step some cars with significant marring(note that I am not talking about a car that is hammered with RIDS, more like marring from years of improper washing/drying at home) with M205 and an orange LC pad (flat) and some times a poilshing pad.



When you need a rotary, you need a rotary, but I have found that *most* cars can be corrected with a FLEX/M105/finishing polish in less time. I also factor in less time to tape, clean up random splatter, etc.



It should also be noted that (obviously) all paint is different and some times you just can't finish it out with a da--micromarring. So many variables when talking about poishing paint! :D



BTW, nice to see you posting again RAG!
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That is just way too cool. There's an untapped market where I live for cheap one step details. I was hoping that D151 was going to allow me to hit that market in a big way, but I was very disappointed in it's performance. M205 sounds like a much better solution.



Man, it sounds like this year is going to be every bit as exciting as last year was when they first introduced M105.



Just when Scottwax is finally converted to a rotary, every one *else* goes back to the DA. ;) Hope ya didn't get rid of your PC, Scott! :doh



Has anyone used a DynaBrade attachment on their rotary with the Keven Brown non diminishing abrasive technique? I've been thinking about buying the DA Flex, but after hearing all the trouble people have been having with them, I'm leaning toward just slapping a dynabrade on my rotary and calling it good.
 
OK, sorry for the triple post, but...



I'm sure that someone has tried single stepping with 205, a rotary, and a zero bite foam pad. Is that combo just as effective as the PC with an orange?



I think I'm going to do a side by side comparison.... M205/pc/orange pad to M205/rotary/red pad.



It's been a long winter.. I"m anxious to get back into the groove!
 
SuperBee,



Are you looking to try these ideas out with the Trio we have coming up? It all sounds so crazy to me, but willing to try it out.



Cheers,

GREG
 
Greg Nichols said:
SuperBee,



Are you looking to try these ideas out with the Trio we have coming up? It all sounds so crazy to me, but willing to try it out.



Cheers,

GREG
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It's sounds pretty loony to me, too, Greg, but when you consider the sources... Bryan, Todd, et al., it's pretty convincing to at least give it a try.



Maybe we should give it the "ultimate test" on the hard clear of the C5 we're gonna do.



I'm going to have to go look and see if I even have any small orange LC foam pads anymore. I think I never replaced them after they wore out
 
SuperBee364 said:
That is just way too cool. There's an untapped market where I live for cheap one step details. I was hoping that D151 was going to allow me to hit that market in a big way, but I was very disappointed in it's performance. M205 sounds like a much better solution.



Man, it sounds like this year is going to be every bit as exciting as last year was when they first introduced M105.



Just when Scottwax is finally converted to a rotary, every one *else* goes back to the DA. ;) Hope ya didn't get rid of your PC, Scott! :doh



Has anyone used a DynaBrade attachment on their rotary with the Keven Brown non diminishing abrasive technique? I've been thinking about buying the DA Flex, but after hearing all the trouble people have been having with them, I'm leaning toward just slapping a dynabrade on my rotary and calling it good.
Click to expand...



I've had excellent results using M205 with my Flex DA as a 1-step. I haven't tried doing a 1-step it with a rotary yet though....Flex just seems like a better option IMO on that type of application. :xyxthumbs



M205 does seem to work it's best when used after M105.





Rasky
 
Man, it seems the KB method is really changing the way we're used to doing paint correction. I really have to try this out!



I guess I'll be trying the KB method with either the 3M orange/green with M205 or the 3M black/yellow with M205 on my Integra's soft paint and see what results I get. Now that I think of it, maybe the aforementioned combinations may be too aggressive so perhaps a 3M blue with M205 may be more appropriate.



Non-diminishing abrasives have really changed the game. I have to remember that from now on...



I'm curious though, although the answer may be obvious, but what affect does the size of the pad have (i.e. 5/5.5" pad versus a 4" pad)?
 
TH0001 said:
With non-diminshing abrasives, the cut is more or less aggressive depending on how long the product is worked. Work it for 10-15 passes on a rotary and M205 will cut far more into the paint then SIP. Work for 2 passes and it will remove very light defects. You dial in the cut by the number of working passes and pressure.
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That's just good stuff right there... OK, I'll be out in the garage for a while...
 
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