M205 and Haze on Jet Black BMW

[Scottwax]

Here is my goof proof (at least for me) method of dealing with BMW's horribly soft jet black:



#105 using an orange Optimum foam cutting pad

#205 using a Meguiars yellow foam polishing pad

3M Ultrafina using a Meguiars yellow foam polishing pad



9 hours of polishing on this one...

 

[Kevin Brown]

Holy SMOKES, man... that's incredible! :eek1:

 

[GBGT]

Here is my goof proof (at least for me) method of dealing with BMW's horribly soft jet black:



#105 using an orange Optimum foam cutting pad

#205 using a Meguiars yellow foam polishing pad

3M Ultrafina using a Meguiars yellow foam polishing pad



9 hours of polishing on this one...

That's very impressive Scottwax, I'm not trying to be a whiner but Jet Black really is a chore...



Did you use a rotary or orbital? I am trying to decide between 85RD and Ultrafina to finish up but I want to use my Porter Cable so I'm not sure which is preferable.



I tried Kevin Browns recommendations tonight. They seemed to help a bit but I still have a clarity issue. There are really no discernible holograms or marring left whatsoever, it just seem like the paint isn't as "clear" as the uncorrected side. It just has a very clean milky grey look.

 

[Kevin Brown]

That's very impressive Scottwax, I'm not trying to be a whiner but Jet Black really is a chore...



Did you use a rotary or orbital? I am trying to decide between 85RD and Ultrafina to finish up but I want to use my Porter Cable so I'm not sure which is preferable.



I tried Kevin Browns recommendations tonight. They seemed to help a bit but I still have a clarity issue.

Dang, I tried. :doh: It should have helped a lot... "Let me at that paint... I'll tear it limb from limb!..." :boxing:



Ultrafina is a virtual guarantee, as it contains a very durable (months-long sometimes ) filler.



Give it to him, Scott!

 

[gmck]

Scottwax,



That is impressive if Ultrafina can achieve that sort of finish on that paint. I use 85rd to achieve the same type of result on black BMs, so your results have now made me interested in comparing the two to see if Ultrafina can out do 85rd. I gather you have also tried 85rd under the same conditions – care to share your thoughts why you chose Ultrafina over 85rd – pro/cons from your point of view etc.



My steps are a little different from you. I start with M105 for that type of damage, usually on orange or if required PFW or the new hybrid version (better than foam pads for heavy compounding because of less heat). I’d skip the M205 and use P0203S because on soft paint like your example and the OP’s problem, I think M205 is a jump too far. P0203S is magic at improving the clarity of the paint on any BMW paint after M105. Then depending on the customer’s wallet, I’d either finish with P0106FF/FA if using a DA or go the whole hog and finish with 85rd after 106 on a rotary.



I’ve never been really impressed with 85rd on a black/blue pad with a DA especially with soft paint. If I was stuck with a DA I’d go with a Crimson pad on a DA because of the extra bite and firmness of that pad. But in my book on soft paint it would be something magic that could beat 85RD on a black Kompressor pad with a rotary.



The bit about your post that really astounds me is you’re before shot, not your after shot. It is not only just yours; you see similar types of photos on all the American forums. I just don’t ever see paint that stuffed on BMWs. We certainly see plenty of examples of scratches and RIDS etc, but I never see such a swirly mess as you see in your photo and the other American photos. Do Americans just trash their cars because the same car is just so cheap as compared to what we pay for them?

 

[smokinfastlegen]

I know much has been said, but I have found 205 can be very finicky. Some paints it is awesome to work on, some paints it can leave some streaking behind and be difficult to wipe, and some paints can leave the faintest of micromarring even when using a flat LC Black pad. PO85rd wont leave as much micromarring as the 205 I have noticed, but then again you are wiping up an oil slick afterward, and the streaking is even worse.



Not trying to shill HD products, but from the experience I have had with HD polish, if you are having any of these problems with 205, HD polish will fill that gap (easy to wipe and finishes very nicely.) If your paint is extremely soft (think of the softest paint you know and go 2 levels softer) though to the point that you might get some polishing residue that wont wipe the easiest, HD polish will be another polish that will be difficult to remove.

 

[imported_MCA]

Here is my goof proof (at least for me) method of dealing with BMW's horribly soft jet black:



#105 using an orange Optimum foam cutting pad

#205 using a Meguiars yellow foam polishing pad

3M Ultrafina using a Meguiars yellow foam polishing pad



.....

That looks fantastic Scott! On a side note, I love Meguiar's yellow polishing pads...extremely versatile, durable, and plays well with a wide range of products...

 

[Accumulator]

.. It just has a very clean milky grey look.

I've had that happen on various dark paints. My solution has always been to redo with some other product.



Yeah, I know that's sooo vague as to be pretty much worthless info, but it just seems that certain paint/product combos simply don't work out properly in this particular regard :nixweiss The good news is that you may well find that either the Menzerna or the Ultrafina just might sort it out fine. Last time I had this happen I redid it (really just more of a burnishing/jeweling) with 1Z High Gloss and that it fixed it.

 

[GBGT]

So I went to buy some Menzerna 85RD today and they were sold out so they gave me a sample of Wolfgang Finishing Glaze 3.0 and said it would accomplish the same thing.. These were the results after:



M105 LCC Orange Pad - PC

M205 LCC White Pad - PC

WG FG 3.0 LCC Black Pad - PC



The result were definitely mixed. It got rid of the swirls, but left me with some pretty bad haze even after multiple IPA wipe downs.



Left corrected/right uncorrected:

This is where it get complicated, the top is the CORRECTED, the bottom is the taped off uncorrected:

So from a far the corrected portion looks much better because the swirls are gone, but up close I have this horrible haze. I am beginning to think M205 on a white pad is pretty aggressive. I'm not sure what move to make next. Is it possible that you just can't achieve the factory level of gloss without a rotary?

 

[JimmyHelu]

Are you familiar with 105 and Kevin Brown Method?

It has a little learning curve so if you are not familiar with it I'd go with a different combo.

Menzerna SIP on orange with Menzerna PO85RD on black should finish down beautifully.

 

[smokinfastlegen]

I have a very far fetched idea that probably wont fix anything..........but. The areas that dont have the haze, did you wipe them with alcohol?



What kind of towels are you using and how are you cleaning them? One of the few things I have noticed is sometimes you can induce a slight haze with less than perfect towels (not meaning dropped towels.) Ive washed a small load of towels before using hot water and my towels came back out noticeably more scratchy on the paint then towels washed with warm water. Just a small thought.



Otherwise what I might suggest is get another white pad and try the finishing glaze with that pad. Dont wipe up the product though. Get a black pad and put a few drops of finishing glaze on that and continue polishing.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

Maybe you missed it, but it was suggested that you finish down with a black pad - Why are you trying to finish with a white pad? You will need another step. 205 and white is a middle step on Jet Black. And please stop wiping the paint with IPA.



PS: you can do it with a DA but you have to pull out all the steps.:smile::smile::smile:



Don't give up. Yes, you have the most difficult paint ever on your car, but keep practicing, AND use a finishing pad to finish with. (black, blue, or red)

So I went to buy some Menzerna 85RD today and they were sold out so they gave me a sample of Wolfgang Finishing Glaze 3.0 and said it would accomplish the same thing.. These were the results after:



M105 LCC Orange Pad - PC

M205 LCC White Pad - PC

WG FG 3.0 LCC Black Pad - PC



The result were definitely mixed. It got rid of the swirls, but left me with some pretty bad haze even after multiple IPA wipe downs.



Left corrected/right uncorrected:

This is where it get complicated, the top is the CORRECTED, the bottom is the taped off uncorrected:

So from a far the corrected portion looks much better because the swirls are gone, but up close I have this horrible haze. I am beginning to think M205 on a white pad is pretty aggressive. I'm not sure what move to make next. Is it possible that you just can't achieve the factory level of gloss without a rotary?

 

[Accumulator]

GBGT- Remember that nondiminishing-abrasive products like M105/M205 never "break down" in the sense of becoming less abrasive so they're *always* abrasive, even when "they're done" and you're buffing them off. Some of your issues look like that to me- light marring from wiping off the abrasive products.



I always spritz a little M34 Final Inpsection on the polish residue before buffing it away to help with this, but no matter how you do it, be sure to wipe the product off *gently*.



One of the reasons I don't use IPA that much is that it doesn't help with this issue (as IPA has basically zero lubricity or encapsulation). If I'm gonna use IPA (and I'd rather use PrepWash) I first use the M34 to gently remove the product and *then* go about cleaning the oils/etc. off the paint.

 

[Scottwax]

That's very impressive Scottwax, I'm not trying to be a whiner but Jet Black really is a chore...



Did you use a rotary or orbital? I am trying to decide between 85RD and Ultrafina to finish up but I want to use my Porter Cable so I'm not sure which is preferable.



I tried Kevin Browns recommendations tonight. They seemed to help a bit but I still have a clarity issue. There are really no discernible holograms or marring left whatsoever, it just seem like the paint isn't as "clear" as the uncorrected side. It just has a very clean milky grey look.

You can use Ultrafina with a DA, works best with a firmer pad like the Meguiars yellow foam pad than with a finishing pad when using a DA. That will give it some cut. Ultrafina can fill if the defects are light and you don't work it in properly but when used correctly (especially with a rotary) it will permanently remove light defects.

 

[Scottwax]

The bit about your post that really astounds me is you’re before shot, not your after shot. It is not only just yours; you see similar types of photos on all the American forums. I just don’t ever see paint that stuffed on BMWs. We certainly see plenty of examples of scratches and RIDS etc, but I never see such a swirly mess as you see in your photo and the other American photos. Do Americans just trash their cars because the same car is just so cheap as compared to what we pay for them?

The dealer did that, not the customer. In between when he first looked at the car and then picked it up, the dealer had it "detailed" for him. Most car dealers (especially used car dealers) here are notoriously cheap, and at what they want to pay, that's the level of work you get.

That looks fantastic Scott! On a side note, I love Meguiar's yellow polishing pads...extremely versatile, durable, and plays well with a wide range of products...

Agree 100%!

So from a far the corrected portion looks much better because the swirls are gone, but up close I have this horrible haze. I am beginning to think M205 on a white pad is pretty aggressive. I'm not sure what move to make next. Is it possible that you just can't achieve the factory level of gloss without a rotary?

White pad? Don't talk in colors, talk in aggressiveness. Pad color is not standardized. Meguairs yellow foam pad is a polishing pad, Lake Country's yellow pad is their most aggressive cutting pad. You need a firm pad with #205, you use a soft pad and the abrasives never do the work they are supposed to.



If you are well skilled with rotary use, then that might be what you need to finish it out. And I would strongly suggest that Ultrafina and the blue Utrafina pad be your last step. When used properly, to remove LIGHT holograms, it works wonders. 1000 rpms to spread, 1800 rpms using enough pressure to lightly compress the pad for two to three slow passes (1-2" per second, 50% overlapping), then back down to 1000 rpms using light pressure for 2-3 more passes you should be good to go.



The issues you've had are why I continue to spread the word to people to not ever buy a jet black BMW, just not worth what you have to do to get the paint into shape and then keep it there. Even the local BMW dealer tries to persuade their customers to get the sapphire black instead of the jet black because they are tired of all the complaints.

 

[GBGT]

It says in my post that I finished with the WG Finishing Glaze on a black pad.

Maybe you missed it, but it was suggested that you finish down with a black pad - Why are you trying to finish with a white pad? You will need another step. 205 and white is a middle step on Jet Black. And please stop wiping the paint with IPA.



PS: you can do it with a DA but you have to pull out all the steps.:smile::smile::smile:



Don't give up. Yes, you have the most difficult paint ever on your car, but keep practicing, AND use a finishing pad to finish with. (black, blue, or red)

 

[imported_Picus]

I've had all kinds of fun with JB BMw paint over the past 6 years... check my post history; I started a thread in 2006 about JB BMW paint that got quite a few replies. Either way, my process on it now is pretty standard. Assuming I don't need the rotary (which I almost never do with JB), I will do 105/orange LC or D300/mf pad (or 105/mf pad), then either D300/mf (assuming I didn't start with that), then Menz Power Finish on an orange LC ccs pad, working it for damn near forever. After that if you keep constant pressure and keep the pads *really* clean (I swap them or clean them ever pass), I always seem to be good to go, even after multiple IPA/prepsol wipedowns. That's the process I always use before applying opti coat, and lord knows it hates going down over and oils.

 

[GBGT]

I've had all kinds of fun with JB BMw paint over the past 6 years... check my post history; I started a thread in 2006 about JB BMW paint that got quite a few replies. Either way, my process on it now is pretty standard. Assuming I don't need the rotary (which I almost never do with JB), I will do 105/orange LC or D300/mf pad (or 105/mf pad), then either D300/mf (assuming I didn't start with that), then Menz Power Finish on an orange LC ccs pad, working it for damn near forever. After that if you keep constant pressure and keep the pads *really* clean (I swap them or clean them ever pass), I always seem to be good to go, even after multiple IPA/prepsol wipedowns. That's the process I always use before applying opti coat, and lord knows it hates going down over and oils.

So youre saying youre LSP ready after M105 on an orange pad? I'm definitely doing something wrong...

 

[Accumulator]

So youre saying youre LSP ready after M105 on an orange pad? I'm definitely doing something wrong...

Then so am I I'm being facetious as I don't consider having compounding artifacts post-M105 to be "doing something wrong". Rather, people who *don't* have such artifacts are doing something "different", which may indeed be desirable, at least in certain circumstances. But it's sure not mandatory for "correct" use of M105.



I almost *always* have compounding artifacts post-M105, though they can be hard to see without employing the SunGun.



I wouldn't (and I *DON'T) worry about it



No, that's not in any way some slam at the people who *do* finish down OK, I just don't see the point in the average Autopian struggling to do it.



Eh, I *still* think the product buff-off has something to do with this particular issue.

 

[GBGT]

I'm planning on going to Autogeek monday to pick up some Menzerna? I'm thinking the following:



M105 - Orange LCC

M205 - Black LCC (since it seems pretty aggressive on white...BUT will this be enough to remove the marring from the M105?)

106FA or 85RD - Blue LCC?