M105+Rotary=Holograms...

S

Striker

Active member
Hey guys, haven't been on here in a while. Here's what I'm working with-



Vehicle-2001 Impala (black) with 40K miles.



Tools/Supplies- Makita Rotary+8" 3M pads+M105&Menzerna FP.



I did the exact same polish combo as listed above only using a PC with 4" LC pads with perfect results. Much more time was needed but the results where hologram free. I went back to attempt and remove the holograms by doing some passes with the menz fp on the makita again with no luck.



I saw the car today in sunlight and was a little dissapointed at what appeared to be my hard work.



I
 
105 via a rotary, on almost any pad, on most paint, will leave holograms. The severity depends on the pad and the paint. I can't speak to the consistency of your paint but in an imaginary world on say, medium hard paint with moderate marring I might use 105 via PFW, which I would follow up with 105 on say, a white LC pad, then do FPII on a black or something... It sounds like you have reasonable enough holograms from the 105 than going right to FP isn't clearing them up. That's the downside of a rotary, of course..the upside, as you mentioned, is speed.



What you might try, if still have the PC, is a combo I very much like on most black paint with moderate marring, 105 via PFW (or orange or white depending on marring) via rotary, then 105 via white (unless first step was 105/white) via rotary, then FPII/white or black high speed via PC. You end up saving all the time because you're cutting with the rotary, but you finish with the PC, which on medium or softer black paint is usually easier, imo.
 
Thanks Picus,

I might get the PC out and re-finish the surface with it. Do you think if I went with the PC+white 4inch pad+Menz FP it would do the trick?
 
Striker said:
Thanks Picus,

I might get the PC out and re-finish the surface with it. Do you think if I went with the PC+white 4inch pad+Menz FP it would do the trick?
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David Fermani said:
M105 + Wool + Black Paint = 3 step correction. Try M105/wool/rotary > M105/Orange/PC > 85rd/white/PC. Try using 5.5 inch pads. 4 inch are way to small on anything other than tight areas.



Here's an interesting thread about wool/M105: http://www.autopia.org/forum/machin...105-finish-buffer-trail-free-foamed-wool.html
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What he said ^^. After 105/rotary on anything more aggressive than a white LC pad, I would do a middle step either via rotary or PC, probably 105/white via rotary or 105/orange via PC, then finish with FP/white/grey... Like David said, though, i'd likely use 5.5 or 6 inch pads.
 
105 might not contain intentional fillers.

But it still hides/masks lots of swirls and presents you with a cosmetically impressive look....that's misleading.



On average hardness clearcoats, these are my personal observations, and your opinions could differ:



After 105+wool on rotary:

1. Wiping with Prepsol or equivalent: u don't see anything nasty.

2. Spraying undiluted MPC and rinsing off: u might see a bit of nasty swirls.

3. Spraying undiluted MPC, wiping that surface repeatedly, wait 3mins and rinse: Holy SxxT!!! You see the real thang!!!

4. After Method 3, wipe with full-strength alcohol: The REAL truth is revealed. 3 and 4 are what I use in my shop.



So, on most CCs, after 105+wool+rotary, i will not go straight to a PC.

The PC does not hv the power to CUT away the swirls caused by 105+wool rotary.

The PC merely works some fresh 105 onto the surface, and its oils providing even more "cover-up", leading you to assume everything is OK. Very misleading.



After 105/wool rotary, I normally go to 105 or something else with ORANGE pad with rotary, as I wanna ensure the 105wool swirls are adequately removed. Only then, will I proceed to either PC or DA for finishing.
 
gigondaz said:
105 might not contain intentional fillers.

But it still hides/masks lots of swirls and presents you with a cosmetically impressive look....that's misleading.



On average hardness clearcoats, these are my personal observations, and your opinions could differ:



After 105+wool on rotary:

1. Wiping with Prepsol or equivalent: u don't see anything nasty.

2. Spraying undiluted MPC and rinsing off: u might see a bit of nasty swirls.

3. Spraying undiluted MPC, wiping that surface repeatedly, wait 3mins and rinse: Holy SxxT!!! You see the real thang!!!

4. After Method 3, wipe with full-strength alcohol: The REAL truth is revealed. 3 and 4 are what I use in my shop.



So, on most CCs, after 105+wool+rotary, i will not go straight to a PC.

The PC does not hv the power to CUT away the swirls caused by 105+wool rotary.

The PC merely works some fresh 105 onto the surface, and its oils providing even more "cover-up", leading you to assume everything is OK. Very misleading.



After 105/wool rotary, I normally go to 105 or something else with ORANGE pad with rotary, as I wanna ensure the 105wool swirls are adequately removed. Only then, will I proceed to either PC or DA for finishing.
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If M105 via PC can permanantly remove deep RIDS and swirls by itself, it can, will and does not have a problem removing buffer swirls created by a rotary. I (and many others)have been using M105 for correction for a long time and you are the 1st one claiming to have defect return. Many have Degreased, Dawn'd Alcohol'd, Solvent wiped and left the paint to bake for hours in the hot sun; in multiple parts of the country/world and would equally agree. I maintain several cars that were initially corrected with M105 and haven't seen anything come back yet. Out of all the products I used, I'd vote M105 to be the least likely one to fill/hide/mislead/cover up defects.
 
David Fermani said:
If M105 via PC can permanantly remove deep RIDS and swirls by itself, it can, will and does not have a problem removing buffer swirls created by a rotary. ... I maintain several cars that were initially corrected with M105 and haven't seen anything come back yet. Out of all the products I used, I'd vote M105 to be the least likely one to fill/hide/mislead/cover up defects.
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Same experiences here, to the extent that I basically don't bother IPA/PrepWash/etc. much after using M105 any more. But FWIW I've only used it on clears that were medium-hard (think typical Glasurit) and harder.
 
On every car I correct with M105 using either surbuf or HT tang both with R/O. I always do 3-5x wipedowns with straight IPA on the first panel. I never have anything comeback. When using surbuf, I usually have to wipedown every panel with straight IPA to remove the M105.



As noted by Kevin and David, M105 via an orange primed pad via a R/O will quickly remove most rotary "effects." Then all that remains for me is a quick going over with a primed M205 black pad.
 
I know a lot of guys said they put the rotary back in the cabinet after using M105 with the KBM or a version of that system, So, is there any advantage of using M105 with wool on a rotary? If what I understand from reading the comments here, you need another 2 steps to finish. That seems like a step back to me. I guess on one hand, I'd like to be able to one step with a rotary like I do with a PC, but - that doesn't seem possible. It's a shame cause old age is screwing with me and running a PC for 4 - 6 hours really takes a toll on my arms/back.



I'm tempted to try some of that Gloss It stuff with my Cyclo - sure looked good on a few C&B's I saw. Hey, I'm open to suggestions, I need to keep detailing, got a teenager with a driver's license and car insurance ain't cheap!!
 
gmblack3a said:
.. When using surbuf, I usually have to wipedown every panel with straight IPA to remove the M105..
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I'm planning to use PrepWash when I do my next M105-centric correction, can't help but wonder how you'd like that stuff compared to IPA for this.
 
I know when I first started using m105 I felt the same way about it filling. M105 does take time to fully understand how to work it. Remember its not a traditional polish or compound. Its non diminishing properties can be quite hard to adapt to. Like most polishes that diminish you only get so much time before you work the product to a gloss and all abrasives are gone. As with M105 you can work the super micro abrasives as long as you want to get the disired level of correction. One of the things that you need to adapt to is the short working times. This is why I use water to relube the surface after it flashes to work longer. When 105 first came out it was better used for a rotory in my honest opinion. They then reforumlated, and to me its an entirely different formula. I noticed it works better on a pc now. When I go to a rotory now I have recently been using m85 then going to m105 on a oribatal type machine. m85 is more of a traditional feeling compound. It works better in my style of rotory work. What you need to do is find something that works for you. Although I have found that KBM method works majority of the time. The importance of using a d/a for correction as opposed to rotory is the fact that it levels paint evenly which is a huge factor when it comes to longevity of results. Thats another topic though. As far as it filling I have never noticed it now, but then I take proper caution when wiping down paint afterwards. Also keep in mind that some products used in wiping down paint may dry out certain microfibers causing them to scratch paint. To much alcohol and a cheap microfiber could have adverse affects. Same with mineral based products like lacquer and prep solvents. Once you dry out a microfiber to much the fibers split and can scratch paint. Im sure, Ill get bombarded with naysayers on this one, lol. There are so many varibles that come into play its just not worth arguing about on here. Again find what works for you and stick with it! Best of Luck.
 
Some compounds have "fillers" added to intentionally cover defects, while others do not leaving the assumption that what you see is what you got after the process. My experience is that it's best to do a wipedown to be sure. All compounds have some type of necessary lubricant in their chemistry to make the product work correctly, and I think traces of that is what can be left in the surface to temporarily cover minor defects that still remain. It only takes a few seconds to wipe a small section with a cleaner and be sure the defects are truly gone before your final polish.
 
Hey guy's it's been some time since I posted but thought I would chime in one this one. I use M105 exclusively for correction work and have for a couple of years now. 9 times out of 10 I use it with a PC and an orange flat pad with fantastic results with moderate to severe marring. Almost every detail I do is black by the way. Keeping the pad moist and not using too much 105 is very important. Polishing until 105 goes clear leaves an almost lsp finish for me. I will follow with either M205 or 106FF on a black pad. This two step process produces an exceptional finish on black paint. You really have to get the "feel" for M105 for it to finish with out marring left behind. If the pad dry's out your in trouble. Spurring frequently is important as well. I also find once the pad gets soft from moisture and a lot of work, it does not cut as well anymore. It's time to change the pad.
 
I don't mean to thread jack but several of you have mentioned that 105 does not give you problems with filling which I find also. What about 205? I haven't used it before. If you find the same with 205 I may have to get some and leave my Menzerna polishes on the shelf - well except for PO85rd, I will reach for that.
 
Bert said:
I don't mean to thread jack but several of you have mentioned that 105 does not give you problems with filling which I find also. What about 205? I haven't used it before..
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Noting that I prefer to do any remotely significant correction with something else before switching to M205 (and yeah, I know that others do use it for correction...), IMO M205 leaves *SO* much behind (in the way of oils) that you'd better PrepWash/etc. if you're concerned about that. And I do mean PrepWash, as IPA doesn't do nearly as good a job of cleaning off the oils that M205 leaves behind; I've used IPA on a given panel repeatedly and *still* had to switch to PrepWash to get it truly clean.



Also, I consider the use of M205 *instead of some finishing polish from Menzerna* to be, uhm....debatable. But OTOH, the filling surprises that 106FF can subject one to are really something too.
 
If the weather permits tomorrow, I'll hit the paint with M105+orange on the porter cable and report back. I'll finish it off with a white pad+fp as well.
 
Accumulator said:
Noting that I prefer to do any remotely significant correction with something else before switching to M205 (and yeah, I know that others do use it for correction...), IMO M205 leaves *SO* much behind (in the way of oils) that you'd better PrepWash/etc. if you're concerned about that. And I do mean PrepWash, as IPA doesn't do nearly as good a job of cleaning off the oils that M205 leaves behind; I've used IPA on a given panel repeatedly and *still* had to switch to PrepWash to get it truly clean.



Also, I consider the use of M205 *instead of some finishing polish from Menzerna* to be, uhm....debatable. But OTOH, the filling surprises that 106FF can subject one to are really something too.
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I agree; I find of 205/106ff or *other* I generally prefer other to finish, usually Final Polish. It has fillers too, but they seem to be more easily removed than 205/106ff (5 minutes in the sun will do it, or one/two wipes with isa/water).



Either way, prepwash is awesome, and highly recommended whatever you use.
 
Picus said:
...5 minutes in the sun will do it..
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I'm always envious of you folks who can pull a vehicle into the sun for while in mid-detail; I have too many contamination-related issues for than :(
 
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