Leveling orange peel with rubbing compound?

[tguil]

I'm about to tackle the leveling of a slight amount of orange peel in the clearcoat of a week old repaint of a door on my black Ram 1500. The door has been cleared twice and the orange peel on the door is close to that on the rest of the truck, but it would match more closely if it were leveled a bit. I want to use the slowest safest procedure possible to tackle the job. No wet sanding. I have talked with a rep from CMA and he thought in this situation I might be successful.



I plan to use the procedure I found in a thread from last year by masterofreality. It makes sense to me.



"....1. Clean the area with 50/50 alcohol and water. It's best if you work about 2 by 2 foot areas at a time throughout all steps. Also keep in mind that you have some quick detailer or water on hand to clean in between products/steps. Make sure you have one rag PER PRODUCT when cleaning and before starting onto next product/step. Also, you'll need a random orbit polisher/buffer for this procedure.



2. Use 3M 3Mâ„¢ Perfect-Itâ„¢ II Paste Rubbing Compound, make sure it is the PASTE, not the liquid. The paste is a more versatile product. Start by putting down about the size of a dime or quarter for the 2X2 foot area, use a wool pad for your randon orbit polisher and get the wool pad a LITTLE damp. Always start this procedure with a slightly dampened wool pad, it will eventually dry up as you work in the compound, but that's OK continue to work it in. It's when it turns dry that it creates a lot of friction and REALLY starts to polish, at which point your using less pressure. _Work back and forth in straight lines, not around & around. Moderate to a little pressure for first few passes, lighter for second pass, use the edge of the wool pad at an angle for another pass. Now go about half the weight you started out using (your're actually holding up the polisher a little at this point). Finnally, one last very light pass. Remember these steps in polishing... they'll be used for the next step using 3M Swirl Mark Remover. Now remove the rubbing compound using your rag designated only for that product.



3. Use 3Mâ„¢ Perfect-Itâ„¢ Glaze Swirlmark Remover. There are two kinds... one is for dark cars, the other for light. Attach a FOAM polishing pad to your polisher. Do NOT add water to your pad during this step. Work in the product just as stated above about a dime/quarter's worth... then start moderatel heavy, getting lighter, lighter, and very light. Going in a straight/linear motion.. back & forth. Wipe up the excess, even if you don't see anything, with the rag designated for this product.



4. Use 3Mâ„¢ Imperialâ„¢ Hand Glaze. This step REQUIRES THAT YOU USE IT BY HAND! Just like the label states. Put it on like you would wax, let it dry and then rub it of with the rag designated for this product. Wipe it off going in a straight/linear motion.. back & forth.



5. Wax it... your choice of brand or type. Use your orbital. and use cotton terry pad......."



Any other suggestions? I'll be using a pc for the job.



Tom

 

[Anthony O.]

Personally I would not use a wool pad with a PC on paint, aluminum yes, paint no.



You might be better off with an orange cutting pad and the PC rather than the wool pad. Get the pad at Classic Motoring Access.



As for the 3M I can't really comment much because I don't use much of their stuff but other than the wool pad it kinda seems OK.



Good luck,

Anthony

 

[meGrimlock]

I too would shy away from the wool unless as a last resort. The only other thing I would add is that I would hold off on the wax for a week-old paint job. Call the body shop and see how long they recommend you wait before waxing. If you do it too soon, you can possibly hinder the curing process and possibly cause warranty problems with the body shop.

 

[imported_zenhog]

yeah, the 2-stage paints need time for the solvents to breathe out. I just had a door repainted and he said MINIMUM of 60 days. I think he's being careful but this guy is good and I don't think he'd fill me full of bull.



I'm very surprised to see anyone try to tackle orange peel without sanding, and using an orbital (which generates no heat) on top of that.



How successful have any of you been with eliminating (or even affecting in the slightest) orange peel in clear coat?



c

 

[tguil]

The CMA rep said that a foam pad wouldn't be aggressive enough. I may start with a CMA yellow pad and move on to the wool if I need to.



I won't wax or seal the door for at least 60 day. I may use some #7 though to bring out the shine.



It was recommended that I not wait for the clearcoat to age too long before attempting to level it.



I guess that I'll find out if this works. I need to be very cautious. This is my "new baby" and I wouldn't wet sand a baby's behind.



Tom

 

[shaf]

:hm Won't trying to level orange peel with a compound just knock down all the clear evenly and not just the high spots like a light wetsanding job would do...? :nixweiss

 

[Tim Lingor]

:hm Won't trying to level orange peel with a compound just knock down all the clear evenly and not just the high spots like a light wetsanding job would do...? :nixweiss

To level orange peel, wet sanding is required. If you think about the depths of the sanding marks from 2000 grit compared with the depth of the orange peel, you would see why wet sanding is the better way.



However to blend the orange peel repair with the factory orange peel, a combination of technique, wet sanding and buffing is required.





(Hi Tom (tguil))







Tim

 

[tguil]

Tim (and others),



I'd like to use the combination technique -- wet sanding and compounding. I'm just not ready to tackle it on a $35,000 truck. I think that it takes more talent than I have. I managed to remove some pretty bad acid rain etching on a black Ford Expedition's hood using just compound, polish and an orbital buffer. I worked on it for more than 6 hours.



I'm also not ready to have just anyone try wet sanding unless they could insure that the orange peel would be matched to the next body panel. Damned black Dodge anyhow. The orange peel difference would not "show" with most other colors.



I'll give the compounding a shot, there is quiet a bit of clearcoat on the door. Mike Phillips gave me pretty complete directions on how to do the wet sanding if I choose to do so.



All of you have been most helpful. Thanks. Maybe when I retire I'll become a professional detailer.



Tom

 

[imported_zenhog]

nah, don't retire and become a detailer... you want to keep buying $35,000 vehicles, right? <g>

 

[tguil]

I could probably afford the truck. I just couldn't afford both the truck and detailing materials and equipment.



The plan for Saturday morning:



One or two times over with a foam pad and compound followed by polishing with DACP.



It that doesn't "cut it" -- one or two times with the wool pad and compound followed by DACP.



If that doesn't level the orange peel enough, I'll quit looking so closely at the damned door.



Whatever, I'll let you know how it came out.



Tom

 

[Mike_Phillips]

Hi tguil,



As far as time goes, catalyzed paints chemically cure. A good analogy is Epoxy, or Polyester resin, (Fiberglass).



If you read the instruction for mixing either of these two items, they tend to say about the same thing, that is, the catalyst, (the hardener), chemically reacts with the resin within minutes of being mixed together. Hardening begins at this point. 95% to 99% of full cure will have taken place within 24 hours. The remaining portions of the material will fully cure over the next few days. And this new matrix will be hardening the entire time reaching it’s maximum hardness in about 4 weeks depending on ambient temperature.



That’s why it okay to start wet-sanding, cutting and buffing on paint 24 hours after it has been applied to the surface. The sooner you start working on it, the easier it will be to buff out your sanding marks.



Example: Recently, we conducted a number of tests on three new ___________ and 6 new _________. To conduct the tests, we had paint panels painted with California VOC compliant paints as used in the refinishing/collision repair industry.



In once case, one of the shops we farmed the paintwork out to “squirted the clear� on our panels at approximately 6:30am. At 11:30 am, we were sanding the panel using a DA sander, #1500 grit paper and then compound using a rotary buffer in order to prepare the panels for testing.



That’s only 5 hours later.



When we recently buffed out the new Meguiar’s Special Event’s Renegade Truck, (which is at Pebble Beach as I type this), we sanded everyday, 24 hours after the paint was sprayed.



http://www.showcargarage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111



From my own experience, the sooner you can sand and buff, the easier it will be. With solvent evaporation paints, you’re safe to wait a week or even two in most cases.



An extreme opposite example is my friend Terry Cook, (http://www.decorides.com), Terry had a car pained in New Jersey, (The Titanic), and then saved it for me to sand down and buff out here in Southern California. When I got to the car, 2 months had gone by. The paint was as hard as nails and extremely difficult to remove sanding marks out of. If it weren’t for the conditions surrounding the car and the event, I would have declined the work. I did a Test Spot, (which I outline in my write-up of the Black BMW I did for the 2003 Bimmerfest), and found that even removing #2000 grit Nikken sanding marks to be incredibly difficult as well as time consuming.



Point being, don’t wait to long.



Rotary buffers versus “Jiggle� machines



The reason pro’s use a rotary buffer is because, they do work. By that I mean, the direct drive force and one direction action of the motor spinning the buffing pad enables your combination of pad and chemical to move small particles of paint, i.e. remove paint.



Jiggle machines, which is what I call Dual-Action polishers, and Orbital buffers, don’t do work. That’s because of the oscillating, or jiggling action they are designed to move in.



(If you want to get A.R., which most of us do like to do, then YES, a Dual-Action polisher can do work, but it is not nearly as aggressive, fast or effective as the rotary buffer for removing defects. I recently buffed out a 92 Porsche with a single stage finish and the Porter Cable DA, with the W-8006 and M-83 was cutting it like butter. But this was because this particular paint was incredibly soft, which is another story).



Think about it… the PC is commonly referred to as “Safeâ€� because it won’t burn through paint, or induce swirls. The reason it’s safe, i.e. won’t burn through paint or induce swirls is because it doesn’t do any work, in other words, it just jiggles on the finish, it doesn’t aggressively move small particles of paint.



Heck, even my mom can use one.



So if you want to try to use one to remove orange peel with a compound and wool pad, good luck, and make sure you share with everyone your success and the techniques that worked for you.



The other problem I find with using the DA to remove paint is that when you are successful at removing the paint, the resulting surface/finish isn’t as shiny as the finish a rotary will produce. In fact it’s kind of flat looking compared the results of a rotary. That’ because the spinning action of the rotary buffer, especially with the right foam pad and the right compound, paint cleaner, or cleaner/polish, will dramatically smooth out the surface and thus increase shine and gloss.



As far as matching orange peel, this takes time, talent, experience, and the right tools.



Here’s a tool my friend Jonny Zurba invented called the Wet-Wedge. As you can see in the picture, the face of the sanding block is serrated. Theory being, only 50% of the pad is coming in contact with the surface thus removing less paint than a completely flat pad, while stilling being, a flat pad. It is also unique in that it has it’s own water feed tube running into the pad so that it is constantly lubricating and rinsing the surface as you sand. A tool nobody should be without when hand sanding.



If you want, I’ll send you one of these things, but I will not be able to do it till Monday. Because you have already waited this long to wet-sand your finish, waiting for another week may not matter.



Hope this helps…

 

[Mike_Phillips]

:hm Won't trying to level orange peel with a compound just knock down all the clear evenly and not just the high spots like a light wetsanding job would do...? :nixweiss

I tend to aggree with 4DSC on this one.



You lose too much control by buffing only.



For matching orange peel, I would use Nikken, #3000 grit Finishing paper. This fine of a grit will remove paint very slowly, giving you good control and your best chance at matching the surrounding areas.



Soak overnight, use a car wash to lubricate the surface, sand for 6-8 strokes, then use a second backing pad, (sanding backing pad), to squeege the finish and inspect your results.

 

[tguil]

Mike,



My local auto body supply shop has Meguiar's #3000 in stock. I guess I'll give it a try.



1. Would it hurt to attempt the buffing first?



2. Should the car wash concentrate be diluted with water to the degree I would use in washing the car?



3. I need a little help with the 6 to 8 strokes procedure. Are these strokes taken in a back and forth motion, figure 8, up and down? What size area should I work with at a time?



4. Should I use an alcohol and water mixture to be sure that I can see how much has been taken down or will the sanding pad used as a squeegee be good enough.



I sure wish you were doing this for me. This post has generated a lot of discussion. I guess no one likes orange peel.



Tom

 

[tguil]

I picked up the Nikken #3000 paper and two Mequiar's sanding pads this afternoon. The #3000 paper feels as "smooth as a baby's butt". I think that even I would have a tough time messing up with this paper.



I have some Nikken #2000 on hand, but I'm going to try to avoid using it. It's a small area that needs to be leveled and I'm in no hurry.



Heck, I might be so good at this, I'll want to wet sand the whole truck. I know -- not a good idea on a new Dodge. The factory clearcoat is not all that thick.



Tom

 

[tguil]

Done. At least as done as I’m going to do.



I followed Mike Phillips' advice and used the Nikken #3000 paper. About 8 strokes. I repeated this procedure twice and picked up a couple of hairline scratches in the process. (I buffed them out well enough so that I can only see them when I have my reading classes on and really look for them.)



I think that #3000 cuts about as much as I want anything to cut. "Soft as a baby's bottom"... my a-- ! My door looked white after the wet sanding.



Following the wet sanding, I used 3M Perfect-II Rubbing Compound. I went over the door several times with the PC using a foam CMA 6 1/2 inch yellow pad. To remove the fine scratches I decided to use a CMA 3 1/2 inch orange pad. I ended up using the 3 1/2 pad to go over the door several more times with PC speeds up to 5.



Next up was Meguiar’s Dual Action Cleaner Polish. I used a CMA 3 1/2 inch white pad to apply this. I didn't have another yellow pad. Again I went with PC speeds up to 5.



I think that I spent about an hour and a half using the compound and the DACP.



Next I applied Meguiar's Swirl Free Polish with a white 6 1/2 inch pad. I kept the PC speed at 4. I applied this product 3 or 4 times.



The final step was Meguiar’s #7 applied by hand -- two applications.



The results: I still have some orange peel. Not as much as I had before. The door is not perfect, but then neither is the rest of the truck. I'm done. One trip over my gravel road and nothing shows anyway.



I will give the hairline scratches another buff when I detail the truck again. There are other places where I have found scratches that need to be buffed out also.



Tom

 

[Ryan]

Wool pads are great. They work in the compund and really does the trick. You could use a little more product for the wool and spur it often beacause the fibers suck up the compound. Ive done a green acura with wool because the scrathes were mighty deep. I actually was worried about marring but it seemed the more heat I created and angles I used helped to round the scrathces until I could not even see them anymore. Foam pads are good for this too but create less heat and thefore require more pressure and time to get the same results. Also, the product used for the wool pads is normally different than with the foam.



Granted, I may have took some life out of the clear with the wool pad and Malco True Grit as the compound but, the finish was clean and scratch free. It also helps to know how much paint is left on the car before you start. That way you can adjust your technique and products to suit.



Ryan

 

[stuart hicks]

I've never been able to do it without using 1500 grit followed by 2000 grit. I always use the 1500 grit in an up and down motion and the 2000 in a front of car to rear of car direction. This cuts the peaks off the 1500 grit marks.



These heavy sanding marks in my experience are only removed with a rotary and then only after using wool and about 1800-2000 rpm which can be dangerous.



Several car companies have paid me to go to car shows to do this to their prototype cars etc. I've always pulled it off but i'm really nervous about doing it. You may take it back to the body shop to get the rest of it out if your not comfortable with that procedure.