Let's hear from the "Hacks"

[frostydog]

First off...great thread!! What a refreshing topic.



I'm not a pro, but a hobbyist with an over active entrepreneurial train of thought, so I couldn't help but give much thought over the years on how best to make a profit doing this (detailing).

There is room for everybody in this business, from the hacks to the 5 day detailers. There is clearly a market at both ends. I just don't get why you challenge the "professionalism" of some of the high-end guys who clearly have valid businesses doing that. If you don't think there is a business saving high-end cars from a repaint, then you are just dismissing guys like RickRack, Rydawg, ebpcivicsi, gmblack3a, the shop were Totolandmach works, and I'm sure many others I've missed.

Setec, I think you misread/misunderstood Relaited's post. In no way do I think Relaited is challenging the professionalism of guys like Rydawg; nor questioning that a market exist for multiple day details.



I do think his post makes some good points, was well written and brings into the equation a variable that is sometimes taboo, or at least rarely discussed here at Autopia. Making profit or even better making the most profit possible.



Who's the better Autopian??



Assuming both scenarios have acceptable customer ratings, grow their businesses, operate ethically, etc, etc, etc...



1. The detailer who spends 5 days getting 1 car 100% perfect and at the end of the week has a 20% profit margin.



2. The detailer who spends 5 days doing satisfactory "expected" work on 10 cars and at the end of the week has a 30% profit margin.



Is detailer #2 a hack?



Or, what if the profit %'s were switched for the two scenarios above??

 

[imported_rydawg1]

Off topic-ish, but this is my dream goal for my own business (even if it ends up not being detailing). I have a website but have not really given it out. I have no business cards, and not too much business, but I find satisfaction in getting new customers because "so and so" told them about me, versus me selling my "product."

Word of mouth is your best source and let your work scream quality and take the time to teach your customer things while building a relationship with them.



I think too many people focus on the price wars and who is the cheapest or focus on only the people who live in the same small town.



When I restarted my business a few years ago after a long break, I only wanted to focus on the enthusiests who already had clean immaculate cars that wanted the paint brought to the max level of perfection. Fast forward three years later, I now have people driving hours just to have me do their car.



Now Rickrack and I teamed up again and we put all of our customers together and we are just swamped.



But we work our butts off non stop and somedays we are at the shop till 1AM.

 

[Less]

Who's the better Autopian??



Assuming both scenarios have acceptable customer ratings, grow their businesses, operate ethically, etc, etc, etc...



1. The detailer who spends 5 days getting 1 car 100% perfect and at the end of the week has a 20% profit margin.



2. The detailer who spends 5 days doing satisfactory "expected" work on 10 cars and at the end of the week has a 30% profit margin.



Or, what if the profit %'s were switched for the two scenarios above??

Who is the better Autopian? Neither. According to the information given, both detailers accepted a job, and applied to proper process/product to acheive the desired results, and all customers were happy. they are both successful autopians.



Which is more profitable? that's a different question.



That question can't really be answered with the information given. We need to know how much each detailer is charging. But let's assume that detailer #2 is charging $200 bucks per car. That's probably about average for a 1/2 day detail that isn't trying to make a car 100% perfect.



So at the end of the week, Detailer #2 has revenues of $2,000 and a profit of $600 (30%). So, for detailer #1 to make the same money on one car at a 20% margin, he would have to charge $3,000.

 

[Less]

Continuing my response to frostydog,



Which is the better business man?



It's detailer #2 because he is operating at a higher profit margin.



Detailer #1 is in a different market that requires more marketing and business development to keep the business growing. Yet he hasn't passed those costs onto the customer, and thus operates at a lower margin. He's working harder for the same money.



the whole point of starting this thread was to illustrate the fallicy that exists when a customer expects Detailer #1's services at Detailer #2's prices.



The result is a post on here where the customer discredits Detailer #2 and labels him as a "hack". And what frustrates me is how people on this board will egg him on and talk about how bad Detailer #2's work is.



That's why I started this thread. I just wanted to open up the discussion about different 'levels' of detailing.

 

[frostydog]

Who is the better Autopian? Neither. According to the information given, both detailers accepted a job, and applied to proper process/product to acheive the desired results, and all customers were happy. they are both successful autopians.



Which is more profitable? that's a different question.



That question can't really be answered with the information given. We need to know how much each detailer is charging. But let's assume that detailer #2 is charging $200 bucks per car. That's probably about average for a 1/2 day detail that isn't trying to make a car 100% perfect.



So at the end of the week, Detailer #2 has revenues of $2,000 and a profit of $600 (30%). So, for detailer #1 to make the same money on one car at a 20% margin, he would have to charge $3,000.

Exactly, that was kind of my point. Though, admittedly, I should have also stated... assume the same sales $'s for both. Net/Net at the end of the day assume detailer #2 is making more $'s.



Is he a hack?? :nixweiss



Is a true autopian only one that can make profit while delivering 100% perfection results?



I *think* this was the path Relaited was going down, though I could totally be wrong.

 

[frostydog]

Continuing my response to frostydog,



Which is the better business man?



It's detailer #2 because he is operating at a higher profit margin.



Detailer #1 is in a different market that requires more marketing and business development to keep the business growing. Yet he hasn't passed those costs onto the customer, and thus operates at a lower margin. He's working harder for the same money.



the whole point of starting this thread was to illustrate the fallicy that exists when a customer expects Detailer #1's services at Detailer #2's prices.



The result is a post on here where the customer discredits Detailer #2 and labels him as a "hack". And what frustrates me is how people on this board will egg him on and talk about how bad Detailer #2's work is.



That's why I started this thread. I just wanted to open up the discussion about different 'levels' of detailing.

Yup...I agree with you 100%.

I guess my posts were poorly written.

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

Unless one can verify a $1,200 ticket average, I question the business acumen, not the quality of end result. That is where I challenge the "professionalism", as getting $400, let's say for a 2 day job is more of an enthusiast.



In my opinion.



-jim

See - I think you assume that most pros on this site are only getting $400-$500 for a 2 day job. I can tell you that is not the case.



I completely see the need and desire for your business for a lot of consumers. I am not knocking the job you do, for the clients in which you do it. However, I think you neglect to see a lot of how "our side" works. Case in point...



There are a lot of exotic car owners that start noticing the swirls and scratches in their vehicles, and are told the only way to fix them is to temporarily fill them with filler products, or repaint the car. For a lot of these guys, they don't want to use fillers, they want the swirls and scratches gone. They then find out, a) a repaint is expensive on an exotic, and b) a repaint can depreciate the vehicle. Suddenly spending over $1000 is no big deal to them.



Additionally, I have spoken with clients that have show cars, and have discovered sites like this. They then start noticing defects on their cars, and are willing to pay whatever to make their baby "perfect".



You are correct that it is all about expectations. If a client only expects "clean and shiny" and has a $200 budget, anything beyond 3-4 man hours is ridiculous. However, if a client wants perfection and is willing to pay for it, then 2 days is no big deal. If you want to assume that everyone that spends 2 days on a car is working for peanuts, then none of us are going to be able to convince you otherwise. Believe what you will.

 

[imported_Picus]

I think most guys on this site charge based on an hourly rate if they are doing 2+ days jobs. I know I do. My hourly rate is the same for everyone. If I work on a car for two days straight, the bill is usually somewhere in the $1000-$1200 range.



Will I do a $300 job? Of course I will; I do them all the time and I do my damnedest to get the best result for the customer with that budget, but again it's all based on an hourly rate.



We've had this discussion before. The only way to determine your "profit" is to work out how much you're making per man hour (per person, if you have more than one person working on the car), which includes travel etc.

 

[RaskyR1]

IMO a hack is a person doing sloppy/poor work. I don't think price has anything to do with it.





If there is polish sling on the windows, in the cracks, or on the trim, you might be a hack!



If you applied tire dressing with a sprayer on a windy day and didn't notice all the silicone specs on the paint...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the windows and neglected to clean the sunroof, rear view mirror, or vanity mirrors...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the engine with a strong degreaser and stained the paint on the fenders...you might be a hack!



I you burned the rubber trim on a car (Lambo) because you didn't tape them off...you might be a hack!



If you took a rotary buffer to a black car and delivered it to the customers with more swirls than a toilet bowl...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned a customer’s interior and they find pop cans and candy under the seat...you might be a hack!











We all have to start somewhere, but poor work is poor work.

 

[imported_Jakerooni]

I will add to rasky's definition a little. If you do sloppy work KNOWING you're doing sloppy, less than on par, work and still wanting to charge pro level prices then yes your a hack. I figure someone taught us all. Some of us we're taught right. Others were not. But how do you know if you were taught right or taugh wrong if the way you do things is the only way you've ever known??? most "Hacks" have no clue they are hacks. They'll obviously never admit it because they honestly think the way they are doing it is THE only right way to do it. remember for 99% of the customers out there as long as the car is clean and shiney when the pick it up is all that matters. Having swirls come back a week later is usually something that dosen't get brought up to often so the detailer never thinks they need to improved because they filled those swirls in nice and pretty like.

 

[RaskyR1]

I will add to rasky's definition a little. If you do sloppy work KNOWING you're doing sloppy, less than on par, work and still wanting to charge pro level prices then yes your a hack. I figure someone taught us all. Some of us we're taught right. Others were not. But how do you know if you were taught right or taugh wrong if the way you do things is the only way you've ever known??? most "Hacks" have no clue they are hacks. They'll obviously never admit it because they honestly think the way they are doing it is THE only right way to do it. remember for 99% of the customers out there as long as the car is clean and shiney when the pick it up is all that matters. Having swirls come back a week later is usually something that dosen't get brought up to often so the detailer never thinks they need to improved because they filled those swirls in nice and pretty like.

Very true! :2thumbs:

 

[brwill2005]

Only doing long two and three day corrections is a niche market. Most if not all the people I do business with simply want a clean car inside and out. They are also usually interested in some type of protection, and maybe a one-step polish. The few who do ask about full paint correction are usually a bit surprised to hear that it is billed out hourly and could take 8-10 hours or more. A big part of my business is maintenance contracts. These are high end cars whose owners want them kept in top condition all the time. Most of them are too busy to worry about caring for their cars. The cars are washed and vacuumed either bi-weekly or monthly depending on the person. Wax or sealant is applied twice or so a year as needed. Because these cars are being properly cared for by only me, it is rare for them to need any polishing. Usually an AIO product suffices if the car needs it. It actually works out very well business wise, because over the course of a year I make more on one persons car doing maintenance details than I would if I did a one time two day correction.

 

[LeadingEdgeDetail]

IMO a hack is a person doing sloppy/poor work. I don't think price has anything to do with it.





If there is polish sling on the windows, in the cracks, or on the trim, you might be a hack!



If you applied tire dressing with a sprayer on a windy day and didn't notice all the silicone specs on the paint...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the windows and neglected to clean the sunroof, rear view mirror, or vanity mirrors...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned the engine with a strong degreaser and stained the paint on the fenders...you might be a hack!



I you burned the rubber trim on a car (Lambo) because you didn't tape them off...you might be a hack!



If you took a rotary buffer to a black car and delivered it to the customers with more swirls than a toilet bowl...you might be a hack!



If you cleaned a customer’s interior and they find pop cans and candy under the seat...you might be a hack!

Great post!! Funny and true! And not insulting! Lets keep this list going...

 

[Relaited]

If you can get the high line stuff, at your margin, that falls in the pro category, there are many, I will try to get off that horse, I can see some get my point.



In line with the hack line of questioning ... what about training ... I am very well educated, but 4 years ago ... I'd call myself a hacker … not much training



But since then, I have spent time and money on training and have had the good fortune to develop relationships with some of the best our there, who are willing to share, and I am a voracious learner. So now I move myself out of that as I am well trained.



We are close to some good news that we will be bringing a world class trainer into our relationship. Not perfect now, but I know I can justify a claim of continuous improvement with lofty goals!



It does go to my bias about this industry, but I am open minded … I think these 2 issues on what is a Detail, and who is a Detailer are vital to improving the professionalism of our industry. Not in how we define it, but how a customer does, or how the Car Manufacturers do, etc



So, in order to not be a "hack", do you need to have had formal training ... beyond I watched a guy do it, then he let me try it, now I am on my own type of thing? Or what level of training or apprenticeship is appropriate.



-jim

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

So, in order to not be a "hack", do you need to have had formal training ... beyond I watched a guy do it, then he let me try it, now I am on my own type of thing? Or what level of training or apprenticeship is appropriate.



-jim

I agree with you completely on this point. You are correct that a lot of people purchase a business license, and a few products, and are a suddenly a pro.



My definition of not being a hack, is being a tax paying business, that is insured, having a technical understanding of what you are doing (understanding the theory behind machine polishing, how paint systems are done, etc..), as well as the ability to do it, and a good understanding of sound business principles (from accounting and marketing, all the way to customer service).



PS - I am enjoying your dialogue much more now that you are conversing in this manner, versus harping on the zero water waste.

 

[Envious Eric]

I dont think training has much to do with it...if you can perform a job better than the majority out there, then you are a pro (think in terms of pro sports) In a sense, this is the same thing.



proâ‹…fesâ‹…sionâ‹…al

   /prəˈfɛʃənl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA

–adjective

1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.

2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.

3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.

4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.

5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,� he said, “is a professional optimist.�

7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.

8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.

9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.

–noun

10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.

11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.

12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.

13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

 

[Envious Eric]

My definition of not being a hack, is being a tax paying business, that is insured, having a technical understanding of what you are doing (understanding the theory behind machine polishing, how paint systems are done, etc..), as well as the ability to do it, and a good understanding of sound business principles (from accounting and marketing, all the way to customer service)

just for the sake of discussion:



if you dont pay taxes, or dont carry insurance, yet you do better work and get paid more because of said higher quality, you are not a pro?



what about the guy who doesnt know anythign business related yet turns out concourse type work on every single car...not a pro?

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

just for the sake of discussion:



if you dont pay taxes, or dont carry insurance, yet you do better work and get paid more because of said higher quality, you are not a pro?



what about the guy who doesnt know anythign business related yet turns out concourse type work on every single car...not a pro?

GREAT counterpoint. I think that would make you a great detailer that should work for someone else, but not a great detailer that owns and runs your own company in a hands on manner.



Not paying taxes or having insurance would also make me question one's judgement this day and age.



Just one man's opinion.

 

[Stealth]

I work at a hack detailing center. I perform hack jobs but like many people already put, you get what you pay for. The priority of the shop I work at is to get the work done as quick as possible because as soon as you get done with car #1, car #2, #3...#20 are about to be sent to your "detail" bay to be worked on. If 3 people come in at the same time and want a detail, say a wash and wax normally would take around 30 minutes, you don't get 90 minutes for the 3, you get 30 minutes for all of them. This requires me to cut corners to get the cars done in a timely fashion and sometimes that means I have to skip doing windows on the car and park it in the shade so they won't notice.



It drives me nuts. I might have a complete detail, a complete interior detail, and two waxes altogether - there is no way I'm going to worry about buffer trails on the complete detail...it will probably take me 20 minutes to fully glaze the whole car to fill many of the swirls in. The problem is people call us hacks...and we know what we do but there is too much work to do in one day to worry about trying to do a better job...it's just not happening. Plus, a full wash-clay-buff-wax, is only costing the customer $110.00. Someone here please tell me how many swirls deserved to be properly removed after the entire car has been fully washed, fully clayed (with heavy duty clay because their car has been sitting for 12 years without a wash), inside fully vacuumed and dusted down with vinyl dressed, as well as a wax after the buffing. We get around $7.5/hr plus tips if we get any. I'm thinking the car deserves 30% MORE swirls for that initial price and our initial pay.



I know how to detail, I know what it takes to get that 90-100% correction - but due to college courses - the available time just isn't there. And people rage at me for missing a small print on the inside of their rear windows for their $35.00 wash and wax - as I'm walking back to see my 6 other details that need to be done in a 2 hour time period, knowing I'll have 8 other details to do after those 6 are done, and it's only 12:00 p.m. right now. :wall

 

[David Fermani]

just for the sake of discussion:



if you dont pay taxes, or dont carry insurance, yet you do better work and get paid more because of said higher quality, you are not a pro?



what about the guy who doesnt know anythign business related yet turns out concourse type work on every single car...not a pro?

GREAT counterpoint. I think that would make you a great detailer that should work for someone else, but not a great detailer that owns and runs your own company in a hands on manner.



Not paying taxes or having insurance would also make me question one's judgement this day and age.



Just one man's opinion.

Great thread! I fall into the category of not having insurance, but I also consider myself a Pro. I don't feel ability/quality can be determined based on one's interest in insuring their exposure to liability. I (based on my insurance background and current risks) don't have a need to insure myself. I no longer detail full time but when I did I was insured. As far as price/quality, I also have a minimum charge of $400 (1 step correction ~ 1 day process) and belive I do a better job than 99% of the people in my area that detail for a living charging $100-$200 for a complete detail. I'd definately classify them as hacks based on the Autopian spectrum of detailing, but quality doesn't mean much if their customer's needs are satified. Is that a bad thing - NO. If they can make a long term, profitable living doing this, more power to them. It just erks me when they think they produce high quality results when I know they don't know the 1st thing about the concept.