Leather Dye Transfer Issue

Greg Nichols said:
Yakky: I've made Contact with Roger Koh and am getting some stuff to try.



Quality Leather: I fear that will be the end result, but I want to try Rogers ideas. Do you know of anybody in Utah I should seek out? This is a world class client and I want to help them.



Cheers,

GREG
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I used to know some guys in Utah, but I can't think of their names now. Email Jeff Ochs at Refinish Coatings. I know he sells to a couple of guys out there.
 
Quality Leather said:
I used to know some guys in Utah, but I can't think of their names now. Email Jeff Ochs at Refinish Coatings. I know he sells to a couple of guys out there.
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Huge thanks! I've sent an email a moment ago. If you recall the contacts in Utah that would be great.



Cheers,

GREG
 
Leather Dye stain - If you have already tried to steam, use alcohol, magic eraser...or any other product than you have damaged the top coat and the dye transfer is now into the acrylic OEM base coat finish which won't come out. If the seat was NOT touched in anyway than you can use our RC-40 cleaner with the RC-687 top additive to remove 99 % of the dye / dirt transfer. the 687 you cna reapply on the seat and this will stop any future transfer. After applying the 687 and if the seat gets dirty or stained, the RC 40 will remove 99 % of the stain bringing the color DE back to below 0.25 of OEM spec - better than the naked eye can view.



If the seat needs to be refinished than I'd suggest using a company, like mine ( we only sell products - not have company techs ), that uses OEM factory finished and not some 1 step RA-333 acrylic / latex finish that will crack and degrade in a short period of time.



40 and 687 were originally designed for BMW and Bader Tannery to reduce warranty and good-will replacement of interior components / seats. 687 can be applied to any interior component. Most OEM's put some 687 into their leather to help reduce dirt / staining issues. BMW does not put anything in their top coats and BMW typically doesn't warranty leather components.



If you use the 687 as a dressing, then each time the component is cleaned you will have to reapply the 687. If the 687 is added to our top coats during refinishing then all you have to do is clean the components periodically to keep them clean and the 687 will stay suspended in the coating for ever.



To help with detailers on here - if you email me at my company i will send you a 4 ounce of 40 and 687 for a sample. 4 oz of 687 applied with a paper towel will do 4 complete interiors of a Honda Pilot size vehicle. You can then track those cars for long term durability and how the product works. Product available from 4 oz to 30 gal drums. 40 and 687 were designed by RC.



Future references: Stay away from the Magic Erasers, Alcohol or all purpose cleaners with citrus or butyl as they will damage the top coat. If you scrub seats and the top coat is removed or damaged then the protective coat is eliminated and the seats will get attract dirt faster.



If you refinish the leather using our products it will look a feel like factory OEM - which each gloss and hand feel can be 100 % duplicated.



On the new 2010 BMW 7 series with the high gloss on the dash boards - the 40 will remove some of the gloss and the 687 will cover the rest. BMW recommends sanding the new dashes with 800 grit paper to remove sheen but this will damage the dash and CSI.



Regards,



Jeff Ochs
 
Welcome to Autopia Jeff!! Look forward to reviewing your input on leather care. Eric (a.k.a. Quality Leather) has mentioned you a few times with great respect.
 
Telux50 said:
Leather Dye stain - If you have already tried to steam, use alcohol, magic eraser...or any other product than you have damaged the top coat and the dye transfer is now into the acrylic OEM base coat finish which won't come out. If the seat was NOT touched in anyway...

Jeff Ochs
Click to expand...



===



Is it too late…for it’s being “touched�?





“I spent quite a bit of time trying to clean it, to get ANY kind of reduction. Used just about everything from Leather Masters to Leatherique.�









Anyway this is the last chance before resorting to unnecessary color cover-up!



Let’s do it with steady hand…and steady mind…without the panic…



We are only doing a test run to see if the dye-transfer moves.



We only select the seam between the sewing as seen in picture #3.



Products application will be by direct drip or apply by cotton swab.



Terry towel or rag will be used to clean-off excess.



We shall run the test progressively to see the result and stop short at Phase 4.



Phase 5 needs special caution because of PERFORATION and I hope we may accomplish much by Phase 2.





Instruction for Phase 1:

Shake the Degreaser-2.2 until it gel, apply and agitate with cotton swab to see if color is transfer – take pictures and post.



Phase 1

Degreaser-2.2

Use this pH 2.2 degreaser for fast removal of surface dye-transfer stains from dry rubbing (crocking).

Dye-transfer from wet rubbing (bleeding) is usually penetrated stains that require the slow dwelling reaction of Prep-7.7.

When dye-transfer stains removal from dry crocking shows satisfaction, rinse with Rinse-3.0 to a squeaky clean and it's done.

Depending on the existing finish condition, topcoat Micro-72 and rub-resistance protector (leather Scent-B) is recommended.



Instruction for Phase 2:

Drip direct onto the same spot as in phase 1 and one the other corner to see which location produces a better result – take pictures and post.



Phase 2

Prep-7.7

Use this pH 7.7 high viscosity aqueous leather prep that works by dwell-time allowing its superior penetrating, lubricating and suspending power to react with the stain.

Penetrated stains requires longer dwell time and this sticky leather Prep will slowly penetrate, lubricate and suspense the dyes.

The first dwell times usually takes 15 to 30 minutes to emulsify the especially penetrated stain, with subsequent hourly, to 4 hourly to 8 hourly and a thorough overnight dwelling.

Each periodic inspection and gentle extraction without rubbing to check dye transfer onto cotton swab, rag or towel with repeat application is the technique to removes penetrated stain until towel shows clean with the final extraction.

With the final satisfactory result, the sticky residues are removed with Cleaner-3.8 follows with Rinse-3.0 until squeaky clean and it's done.

Depending on the existing finish condition, topcoat Micro-72 and rub resistance protector (leather Scent-B) is recommended.

For the very light pastel pigmented colored leather that do not tolerate any unsatisfactorily traces of penetrated dyes, may proceed to the next phase of higher pH alkaline treatment.



Instruction for Phase 3:

Apply by cotton swab over phase 2 testing location to see which location response better – take pictures and post.



Phase 3

d'Protein-11.0

Use this pH 11.0 stain remover after Prep-7.7 to help dislodge and release the dyes by making it more fugitive.

Apply, dwell and extract until towel shows clean.

Inspect when dry and if it’s satisfactory, neutralize with d'Tarnish-1.3 follows with Rinse-3.0 and it's done.

Depending on the existing finish condition, topcoat Micro-72 and rub-resistance protector (leather Scent-B) is recommended.

For the final stubborn traces of dyes that need an extra punch, may proceed to the next phase of bleaching it.



Instruction for Phase 4:

Same procedure as Phase 3 (d’Tarnish-1.3 has to be shaken until solid is totally dissolved prior to application) – take pictures and post.



Phase 4

d'Tannin-3.5 with d'Tarnish-1.3

Use pH 3.5, d’Tannin-3.5 for its bleaching effect will probably remove any remaining trace of dye.

And use pH 1.3, d’Tarnish-1.3 to act as an accelerator to boosts the working effect of the d’Tannin-3.5.

Apply, dwell, boost and extract accordingly; and when the result is acceptable rinse and it's done.

Depending on the existing finish condition, topcoat Micro-72 and rub-resistance protector (leather Scent-B) is recommended.

Most stubborn trace of dyes should be dead by now but a few may require the last treatment using an alkaline leather bleach.



Instruction for Phase 5:

Hope we need not come to this phase!

But the result you can see in some of my test out even with Sharpie Permanent Marker…



Phase 5

Bleach-10.3

Use this product only after d'Tannin-3.5 and d'Tarnish-1.3 combination.

It's only to be used on pigmented leathers that are not perforated and non-absorbent.

It is only design to bleach from the non-pervious finish of pigmented leathers and not allow for the cream to penetrate the leather structure.

This powder bleach becomes pH 10.3 when mixed with warm water to a creamy paste to bleach dyes stains without affecting the color pigment.

Compound dye stains other components (carbon, grease and shellac or varnish binder) have to be removed prior to bleaching the remaining dye residues.

Should allow a minimum 6 hours dwelling time for chemical reaction to take effect.

Remove the powder coating with a damp cotton swab or towel and inspect for satisfaction.

Neutralize the leather with d'Tarnish-1.3 and rinse with Rinse-3.0 and it's done.

Depending on the existing finish condition, topcoat Micro-72 and rub-resistance protector (leather Scent-B) is recommended.





These two products helps as auxiliary:



Cleaner-3.8

Use this pH 3.8 cleaner to assist in removing the sticky residue after Prep-7.7.



Rinse-3.0

Use this pH 3.0 rinse for rinsing.









Jeff Ochs said…if you have already tried…it won’t come out!





Let’s see if this system works, on this failed Leather Dye Transfer removal attempt!









Roger Koh

Leather Doctor®
 
Roger,

No offense, but how much money is involved with all of those products?



To everyone,

I just talked to Jeff a couple of days ago and he said only one person has taken him up on his offer for free samples. If no one wants them then order them and send them to me.:)
 
Pretty sure nothing from LTT would address it as i've used their stuff.
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Depends what you have tried - we do a full and complete range of technical products as well as the ones we sell to counsumers so we have the correct products for all these type of jobs - we are just very careful about how they are used as mistakes can be costly.



Dye transfer can be difficult to remove safely without damaging the finish.

The problem is that the longer the dye is left on the leather the further it will penetrate the finish on the leather so therefore the harder it becomes to remove.

Removing the problem is a staged process and starts by cleaning the leather with a foam cleaner. There are specific cleaners for this problem (LM Strong Cleaner will not be strong enough in most cases). The next stage is to use an alcohol cleaner (these are generally safe on leather and would be the main constituent of a leather prep product anyway). Once these two processes have been followed you will have removed anything that is removeable from the finish. Anything stronger than this will begin to damage the finish on the leather which would then need replacing. If you have reached this stage and no more dye can be removed then recoluring/refinishing would be the only alternative.



Dye transfer removal is a process. It is important to do all the steps in order to remove as much dye as possible otherwise if you have to recolour/refinish then the dye will simply come back through.

Each step uses a slightly stronger product and each step may give the result you want - remember we want to do the least amount we have to even when refinishing.



Step 1: Maxi Cleaner (should be something stronger than LM Strong Cleaner which is just a standard strength cleaner) Dwell time is important so needs to be used as a foam

Step 2: Alcohol Cleaner

Step 3: Remover 1 (a solvent/detergent mix)

Step 4: Remover 3 (this can be used but will almost certainly strip the finish along with the dye so at this stage you would need to be prepared for recolouring and refinishing).

Step 5: Recolour/refinish



There are no simple solutions (other than protecting the leather against it in the first place) and probably no one product that will do the job first go unless it has only just happened. The problem is that dye transfer tends to build up without you noticing until it is fairly well embedded in the finish. The trick is not to let it happen. Protect then clean on a very regular basis. Prevention is much better than cure.



The cost of technical products is very small as you use so little for the job.



You need to avoid some of the suggestions such as Magic Erasers etc and also products that 'guarantee' to remove all stains as these can only do so by damaging the finish on the leather which if not replaced will lead to much more expensive restoration down the line.



Hope this helps
 
I am interested in receiving a free sample of your RC40 and RC687 products. Also, do you have a website where you sell your products?
 
I did try covering the prep 7.7 with cling wrap, good if your careful getting in and out of the seat. Also great for increasing dwell time before it drys/evaporates some.



Cheers,

GREG
 
I'm with Josh on this one... alcohol... grain alcohol :). No really, IPA and use it VERY lightly. Don't rub, but rather "upward" swipes like as if you were "lifting" the ink out of it. It should clear things up. Also, let it dry between sessions so it doesn't get too saturated. And let the customer know that this is a last resort and that you can't be held responsible!!! It's either pretty in pink, or clean, or clean with a little bit of "wear" or replace that part of the leather... these are his choices.
 
Apollo_Auto said:
I'm with Josh on this one... alcohol... grain alcohol :). No really, IPA and use it VERY lightly. Don't rub, but rather "upward" swipes like as if you were "lifting" the ink out of it. It should clear things up. Also, let it dry between sessions so it doesn't get too saturated. And let the customer know that this is a last resort and that you can't be held responsible!!! It's either pretty in pink, or clean, or clean with a little bit of "wear" or replace that part of the leather... these are his choices.
Click to expand...

Have you personally had much luck or any adverse effects with alcohol? I've tried it before and it seemed to soften/melt the surface a bit. It will lighten the transfer, but not totally remove it. I've heard people say to use hairspray, which has alcohol I think and it did the same thing (lighten), but not totally remove it.
 
Telux50 said:
Leather Dye stain - If you have already tried to steam, use alcohol, magic eraser...or any other product than you have damaged the top coat and the dye transfer is now into the acrylic OEM base coat finish which won't come out. If the seat was NOT touched in anyway than you can use our RC-40 cleaner with the RC-687 top additive to remove 99 % of the dye / dirt transfer. the 687 you cna reapply on the seat and this will stop any future transfer. After applying the 687 and if the seat gets dirty or stained, the RC 40 will remove 99 % of the stain bringing the color DE back to below 0.25 of OEM spec - better than the naked eye can view.



If the seat needs to be refinished than I'd suggest using a company, like mine ( we only sell products - not have company techs ), that uses OEM factory finished and not some 1 step RA-333 acrylic / latex finish that will crack and degrade in a short period of time.



40 and 687 were originally designed for BMW and Bader Tannery to reduce warranty and good-will replacement of interior components / seats. 687 can be applied to any interior component. Most OEM's put some 687 into their leather to help reduce dirt / staining issues. BMW does not put anything in their top coats and BMW typically doesn't warranty leather components.



If you use the 687 as a dressing, then each time the component is cleaned you will have to reapply the 687. If the 687 is added to our top coats during refinishing then all you have to do is clean the components periodically to keep them clean and the 687 will stay suspended in the coating for ever.



To help with detailers on here - if you email me at my company i will send you a 4 ounce of 40 and 687 for a sample. 4 oz of 687 applied with a paper towel will do 4 complete interiors of a Honda Pilot size vehicle. You can then track those cars for long term durability and how the product works. Product available from 4 oz to 30 gal drums. 40 and 687 were designed by RC.



Future references: Stay away from the Magic Erasers, Alcohol or all purpose cleaners with citrus or butyl as they will damage the top coat. If you scrub seats and the top coat is removed or damaged then the protective coat is eliminated and the seats will get attract dirt faster.



If you refinish the leather using our products it will look a feel like factory OEM - which each gloss and hand feel can be 100 % duplicated.



On the new 2010 BMW 7 series with the high gloss on the dash boards - the 40 will remove some of the gloss and the 687 will cover the rest. BMW recommends sanding the new dashes with 800 grit paper to remove sheen but this will damage the dash and CSI.



Regards,



Jeff Ochs
Click to expand...



I've tried to get ahold of you to take you up on this offer? Hope this gets to you.....



Cheers,

GREG
 
amndadn said:
I am interested in receiving a free sample of your RC40 and RC687 products. Also, do you have a website where you sell your products?
Click to expand...



Greg Nichols said:
I've tried to get ahold of you to take you up on this offer? Hope this gets to you.....



Cheers,

GREG
Click to expand...



I haven't spoken to Jeff in a couple of months. He has a distributor handling all of Refinish Coatings business, as he is now devoting his time to Ohogwash. You can email him and see if he will honor the offer. I believe it is jochs@refinishcoatings.com. If not, then email jerry@duramend.com
 
Greg,



I've solved this problem before by using acetone (last resort, and after having cautioned the owner). In most cases, upon the owners' green light, even alcohol does not work for me cos it's just not strong enough.



My Merc customers love to put coloured towels on top of their greyish leather seats for "protection". Can't blame them though, cos it gets stained quite easily.



On 4-5mth old "dye transfer" stains, I use an OLD, dry MF moistened with acetone and rub the leather gently. 2-3 times will get that alien colour out.



After rubbing a few quick strokes with acetone, immediately spritz water onto the area, wipe dry and inspect. Do it again 2-3 times. Minimise the acetone's dwell time on the leather.



I know this method sounds crude and un-professional.

But I have to consider:



How much is the customer willing to pay for that interior job?

Does the price of that interior job justify the purchase and usage of professional grade, high-end specialised leather products?



On unusually tough leather problems that gets my "spidey sense" tingling, I always refer the customer to a leather specialist nearby my place.



Most of us here are experienced experts on paintwork:happy:...but when it comes to leather, I hv to admit I'm NOT a qualified, professionally trained expert with lots of experience:razz:



There's loads of info concerning leather that are not known to the public (unlike paintwork) and different leather "key opinion leaders" appear to hv their own respective leather techniques.



Any damage...will be very expensive and ruinous to the image of the detailer.

I know how to overhaul a V8...but I have to acknowledge I don't know how to re-map an ECU!!:razz:
 
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