Kelly@KDS Keltec and Midlands Car Care Wet Sand Tuition Detail - Edition 30 Golf GTI

R

RussZS

New member
I’ve just been lucky enough to spend three days down at KDS Keltec with Kelly and his team, learning how to wet sand with the main aim of removing orange peel. Uniquely, this training was concluded on my very own car – a Golf GTI Edition 30 – with the aim of removing as much of the orange peel in my clearcoat as possible.



This thread shares my thoughts and experiences on the time spent with Kelly, and gives an overview from the perspective of a trainee on KDS’s course.



I am also very fortunate to be the first - I have Certificate 0001!!



Day One :



It’s not very often I get out of bed at 5am, but I needed to be at KDS for 9am for my wet sanding training, so like an excited child on Christmas morning, I was up bright and early and set on my way. I’d forgotten just how bad the M1 and M25 were and unfortunately arrived 15 minutes late!



Upon arrival at KDS’s unit in Gillingham, Kent:





DSC01420 by RussZS, on Flickr





DSC01421 by RussZS, on Flickr



With introductions out of the way (Kelly has a team of 4 including himself), Kelly began to prepare a bonnet which would be the test panel for the first days worth of tuition:





DSC01422 by RussZS, on Flickr



The aim of the first day was to cover the following areas:

- Use of a Laser Pointer to create a fixed point to assess clearcoat removal rates

- How to use a PDG effectively, including how to calibrate one correctly

- The differences between using a DA Sander, working by bare hand and using a block

- Risks around scorelines, pigtailing and dirt/grit

- Using compounds and polishes to remove sanding marks and restoring the gloss to the paint



The test panel itself was absolutely ideal – covered in dents, RDS’s and crucially orange peel:





DSC01430 by RussZS, on Flickr





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It’s almost as bad as a new BMW!!:lol:



Here are some pics of the tools we used during the first day:





DSC01435 by RussZS, on Flickr





DSC01436 by RussZS, on Flickr



So we have:

- PosiTector 6000

- Mirka DA Sanders and Abralon Discs

- 3M 1200, 1500 and 2000 grade sand paper

- Meguiars 2500, 3000 and 4000 grade sand paper

- Sanding Blocks



We set up the laser pointer on a tripod, secured by clay, to create a fixed point to allow us to as accurately as possible assess the removal rate of whatever we were doing.

Next Kelly showed me how to correctly calibrate the PosiTector 6000:





DSC01448 by RussZS, on Flickr



A bare metal block was used to create a reference point:





DSC01453 by RussZS, on Flickr





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Next we tested with a shim:





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That’s pretty close…



Now on a 125 shim:





DSC01484 by RussZS, on Flickr



With the P6000 appropriately calibrated, Kelly moved on to begin the wet sanding demonstration. The key thing I have learnt about wet sanding is how important cleanliness is. If you catch a single dirt particle between the paper and the panel, the consequences can be severe. We began by flooding the panel, to remove any traces of dirt or dust:





DSC01499 by RussZS, on Flickr



We began with 1500 grit. The paper was put into a bucket with warm water and hand wash (to help with lubricity):





DSC01502 by RussZS, on Flickr



Kelly began wet sanding by hand with 3M 1500





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To deomstrate just how fine the ‘scratches’ from 1500 are, Kelly went over a test section with Lime Prime and Super Natural Hybrid:





DSC01514 by RussZS, on Flickr





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DSC01519 by RussZS, on Flickr



Impressive stuff!! However, up close…





DSC01522 by RussZS, on Flickr



It just goes to show how deceiving some photos could be…



Next Kelly showed me how to use a Mirka DA Sander with 2000 grade disc:





DSC01528 by RussZS, on Flickr





DSC01535 by RussZS, on Flickr



Now from certain angles, it would appear that the orange peel has been fully removed. I’ve seen a couple of threads where this process has been used, and from certain angles it looks perfectly flat:





DSC01533 by RussZS, on Flickr



However up close, at the right angle we can see the peel is still very much there!!





DSC01530 by RussZS, on Flickr



I then had my first go! 4000 Grit Abralon Pad on the Mirka, to refine the finish of the 2000:





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I was keen to try the 2000 myself to see if orange peel could be removed on a different part of the test panel:





DSC01548 by RussZS, on Flickr



However again, from certain angles it looks great – very flat:





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However, catch the lighting correctly and we can see the peel is still present:





DSC01552 by RussZS, on Flickr



Meanwhile Kelly just off refining the other part of the test panel so that it was all at 4000 grit level:





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For fun, we tried P1 via a 4000 Grit Pad…





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Not bad!!



However, clearly not perfect… so next Kelly polished the panel up with Scholl S3 and a Scholl Wool Pad via Flex Rotary:





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So the top half of his section of the panel was all done by machine (2000 then 4000 as I’ve seen on here many times) and the bottom part was all done by hand 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000 and 4000 (done properly IMO!).



Using a PDR light, we can see the bottom half of the panel (done by hand)





DSC01584 by RussZS, on Flickr



(Note the dent)



Now the top half, done by machine:





DSC01586 by RussZS, on Flickr



Now we can see that the orange peel has been flattened to an extent, but has not been removed entirely. From my perspective, it was clear to see that sanding by machine was not only very quick but also very easy to do – easier than correcting paint with a rotary certainly! Whilst it did flatten a little, it was beginning to become clear that to remove orange peel correctly and fully, then it needed to be done by hand.

Further pics of the panel:



Top Half (machine)





DSC01590 by RussZS, on Flickr



Low Half (hand)





DSC01593 by RussZS, on Flickr



Then it was my turn….!!!



So, before I started, we took a paint reading:





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I started, like Kelly did, with 1500 grit:





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Very scary stuff at first! It needed another pass to completely flatten the remaining peel:





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Much better… much more even coverage and crucially, the peel is all but removed:





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2000 grade was next, then 2500:





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You can see the gloss starting to return to the paint at this stage, it becomes far more reflective.





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We finished with 3000:





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Next I used the Flex/S3/Wool combination to remove the sanding marks:





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That was my first practice run, so now we would repeat the process but on the fixed point where the laser pointer is:



First the panel was flooded:





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This is after 2 passes with 1500





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2000 next:





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Then on to 2500:





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After 3000 we can really see the gloss starting to return, you also begin to get an appreciation of the final finish you are going to achieve:





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So, to summarise, at this stage I had hit the panel with 1500 twice, 2000, 2500 and 3000. We have seen the clearcoat reduce from 134-136 range, down to 128, to a maximum removal of about 6-8 microns. However, we must remember that this paint is rather quite soft, as the next test so aptly demonstrates.

Now it was time to remove the sanding marks, which were very fine, with a machine polisher. To try something different, I suggested we tested this with the Megs MF system (cutting disc and D300) and a Megs G220 DA:





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I was expecting this, after all of this wet sanding, to remove about 2 microns or so, however we were both very surprised by this…



DSC01662 by RussZS, on Flickr



So we’d taken off 6-8 from all of that wet sanding, then the same again use the Megs MF system!! I was very surprised by the rate of removal. I worked the panel for 2-3 passes… as recommended.

Next, to test how much we would have removed had we used a Rotary, Wool, S3 and the right technique:





DSC01665 by RussZS, on Flickr



This took it down to 122:





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Next Kelly refined with Scholl Orange Spider Pad and S17+:





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Then a further set with 3M Yellow Pad and a mix of 3M UltraFina and Extra Fine Compound, to leave:





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Final reading of:





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This was the end of Day One. I was staggered by the difference in the clarity of the panel, especially given that I’d done it largely myself! The removal rate of the Megs MF system was a bit of an eye opener for me too – I’ve only tended to use it on harder cars, removing around 3 microns. I’m going to do some further testing on softer paints to see if what we saw here is consistent. The effectiveness of wool surprised me too, and also how very little is actually being removed by the wet sanding process (especially when compared to the MF system). That was a long, but rewarding 12 hours…



Day Two:



Today we would be starting on my Golf! I was feeling quietly confident after doing a good job on the test panel – but as I’d soon discover, it’s a lot trickier working on a car with curved panels, when compared to a nice flat bonnet!

My car was shockingly filthy, so would obviously need a thorough cleaning before progressing. Paul, one of Kelly’s team very kindly cleaned the Golf for me, whilst Kelly let me have a play with the smaller Mirka sander and looking at RDS removal.

Letting Paul clean my car was a very odd experience for me as I’d not let anyone near my car for the past 5 years. However, as he was one of Kelly’s guys, I’m sure it’d be cared for in the highest possible way!





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What a shocking state – hardly the best rolling advertisement for me!!:lol:





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Back inside, Kelly was busy with his blade creating a load of RDS’s for me to remove!





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I’ve seen lots of threads where a Mirka and Sanding discs are used to remove an RDS, so Kelly was keen for me to have a go at this to see how effective this process would be:





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2000 disc:





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It soon became very evident that wet sanding by machine, due to the firmness of the discs used, was levelling the paint (as expected) and therefore was not very effective at rounding any scratches off. The other point here is that you would be flattening the orange peel to an extent too, so this could look very odd on a very ‘peely’ surface.

On the taped off area, Kelly showed me how effective a rotary is at rounding RDS’s:





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Really edging the pad to get the rouding to be as effective as possible:





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The scratches were beginning to disappear, but so was the clearcoat!!





DSC01742 by RussZS, on Flickr



Still they were not quite gone, so more cutting with the Orange SP and S3:





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He was REALLY working the panel too:



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What became clear at this point was that sanding wasn’t removing nearly as much clearcoat as I perhaps perceived, and that a lot of us have removed far more removing an RDS (clearly these were very severe examples though!)

We took a couple more pics of the panel and then turned our attention to the Golf:





DSC01796 by RussZS, on Flickr



Please note that’s a bare panel, no CG Kore :p





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Now it was time for this:





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It looks well from a distance, but up close…





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Again, we calibrated the PosiTector 6000:
 


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It was out by a fair bit..so it was calibrated:





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Test on the blue Shim (should be 125)





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A few more pics of my peel using a PDR light:





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We also taped up all panel gaps and put a protective sheet over my engine bay. I’d not considered this previously, but it was to stop the water, which would contain clearcoat, from drying and hardening in my panel gaps!





DSC01846 by RussZS, on Flickr



The worryingly low reading, which was our starting point!!





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Laser Pointer setup again to measure removal rates:





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Wheel protected too:





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Being the kind Gent that I am, I let Kelly do the first panel :D





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After 1500:





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Still 106!!!



2000 next:





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2500…





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3000:





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Scholl S3 and Wool next, to remove the 3000 marks:





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Refined next with 3M Yellow system:





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Wow… now I’m getting excited (and scared that it’s my turn soon!!)





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I started on the opposing wing, with 1500:





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Whilst Kelly did the bonnet:





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I worked through the grades – 1500, 2000, 2500 then 3000, then it was polished up with S3:





DSC01942 by RussZS, on Flickr



The drivers door was next, same process, but we wouldn’t be polishing this time – just sanding around the car now, down to 3000, then polishing at the end:





DSC01949 by RussZS, on Flickr



This is a great pic showing the difference in finish between 2500 (on the left) and 3000





DSC01951 by RussZS, on Flickr



That was near the end of Day Two…





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Day Three:



Day three was toy day!! I’d asked Kelly about the microscopes I’d seen being used, and the Gloss Meter etc, and they all came out to play!!

We wanted to measure the difference in gloss levels between the sanding stages and show the increase at the end from the work we’d done.

So to begin:





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After 1500!!





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This also came out!!





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It was scary to see how many ligt scratches I had in my paint!! (this area was before sanding!!)





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This pic shows was sanding marks look like:





DSC01979 by RussZS, on Flickr



Much, much finer!



Kelly continued to work on the bonnet, leaving me to wet sand on my own, unsupervised!!





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After 2000:





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Oh dear…





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However from the right angle, its not quite so scary:





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Working through the grades:





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The bonnet was coming along nicely too!





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I continued around the car using 1500, 2000, 2500 and 3000:





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I was getting excited from seeing the potential on a few panels!!





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Kelly kindly did the petrol cap for me!





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Roy from Pro Valeting also very kindly popped down to lend a hand with the machine polishing!!!





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It’s not bad when two of the countries’ finest detailers are working on your car for you!!!





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Roy and Kelly very kindly followed me around the car removing the sanding marks. I corrected the door myself and Kelly refined it.



Now please consider that due to time constraints, we were unable to complete the entire car, so we only did the top half, of the sides, the entire wings and the bonnet. However, I now know somebody in the Midlands who can finish this off!

For speed, we finished with Carlack 68 NSC (available from CYC) and GTechniq C2, which wasspritzed on.



Here are a couple of finished shots. Kelly has a lot more on his camera, which give a better representation of the amazing finish we managed to achieve here between us.





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What an amazing three days. I’d like to express my deepest and sincerest thanks to Kelly and his team (Paul, Cons and Tracey) for their wonderful hospitality and time. They are a great bunch. I also have been astounded by Kelly’s detailing skills and knowledge of paint and all things detailing. He really is up there with the very best. I’ve never seen anyone handle a rotary with such skill and fluidity. I consider myself to be very good, but he has shown I can still learn more in terms of correcting more effectively in a shorter space of time – I’m going back for a bit more tuition next year. I’ve seen a lot of people polish, but nobody quite like this, and I need to learn in this way too.

My car looks incredible, and it’s so very rewarding knowing that I have done a lot of it myself. I could have never got it to look this good with a rotary alone. Swirl removal and jewelling can only take a finish so far. The increase in reflectivity and clarity you get from removing the orange peel is nothing short of breathtaking and I’d recommend it to anyone. I think the key point to remember is that on my car, we were removing as little as 6-8 microns to achieve this finish. The Megs MF system took off just as many just removing the 4000 grit marks, and we took off 15-20 removing an RDS – these are things detailers are doing every day all over the world. Wet sanding isn’t nearly as scary as it looks. Clearly it won’t be for everybody and won’t be suitable for every car, but we should remember that we are only removing the ‘high points’ in the clearcoat and making it perfectly flat. Very little of the ‘base’ is actually removed at all.



I’d also like to say thank you to Roy – without Roy we would have struggled to finish it in time, and I’d still have a very swirly roof. Thanks as ever Roy, a true Gent.

If you managed to read it all – then thank you. I know I will have missed some key points and would be happy to answer any questions where I can. Kelly will also be doing a thread from his own perspective (and with more more professional photos lol!)



This is the money shot for me!





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Russ – Midlands Car Care



Midlands Car Care Facebook Page



Oh and of course, not forgetting:



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A few more pics from Kelly's set:





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and how cool is this one????





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Oh and you HAVE to see Kelly's M3 in the flesh..



I've seen a HD Video of it in the Sun and it's INCREDIBLE!!



Here are a few pics to get an idea....



Wheels by Lepsons:





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Russ, I see your work over at DetailingWorld as well, and I must say I am very impressed. Must have been an unreal experience.
 
Wow, I thought I knew how to wetsand, but this really makes me question it. These guys are absolute masters. Congrats Russ, I'll bet you had a fun time doing this!
 
I am interested in doing this I saw a while ago on DW some others have done it also. What is a rough costing on this course with him.
 
looks like an awesome time!



I have a few questions...



are you saying that D300 and a MF pad removed as much as sanding with 1500-2000-2500-3000-4000????? I find that hard to believe, so I hope that I am reading something wrong



and another point where you show the 140 reading to 114 reading via just compounding....youre saying you remove 26 microns of paint with two passes???? Something has to be off there as thats pretty extreme.



just looking for some clarification here...I could be off as there was a lot of info in this post
 
Absolutely outstanding write-up with an amazing attention to detail. It was very informative and I'm really thankful you took the time to post it.



I too find the readings to be a bit hard to believe at 100% accuracy. Compounding does remove a good amount, no doubt about that but 26 microns from two passes? Actually thinking about that, I would say there is some variability as the paint was around ~175 degrees F and I imagine that would speed the removal of clear coat. However, I have a hard time believing the accuracy of the sanding removal, especially in steps where you can clearly see the slurry of clear coat being removed and the PTG showing the same reading after multiple steps. I'm not currently familiar with how the PTG actually takes it's measurement, but it seemed to be the most accurate on the process carried out on your car, in which the total removal of paint was about ~6 microns(I'd have guessed 8-10) after sanding and compounding, and polishing.



One more thing I found interesting is the covering of the wheels/engine. I can see this for protecting against dust and slurry, but not for the reason stated. The clear-coat would not "re-harden". Modern day clear-coats are Polyurethane clear-coats and are kept liquid by a solvent in the paint. Once applied, the solvent evaporates and leaves a hard, solid finish, transitioning from it's liquid form. This means the clear coat removed in the sanding process are just tiny, solid chunks that appear liquid as they are carried away by the lubrication media. In essence, they are solid, and would not bond nor harden, only the lubrication would evaporate and leave the spare paint particles on the surface, which would be able to be wiped away with a quick swipe of quick detailer.





I'm not questioning the detailers knowledge or trying to offend anyone. I'm simply stating what I understand from my knowledge and it is meant to be a constructive discussion topic. If I'm wrong on any points, someone please correct me. I merely find this extremely interesting and wish to understand it more :)





Also, curious if readings were taken while the polishing oils were still present on the paint, and another reading taken after the polishing oils were removed to see if the oils were a variable.
 
Great post and awesome shots. The turn around was amazing on what they did to your car.



I'm a bit surprised though that when you guys were sanding with your hands that you didn't use a sanding block at all? Were you not concerned about the uneven pressure that your bare hands offer?
 
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