KBM Problem: overheating pad backing

Rob22315 said:
Seems obvious but I'll ask anyway - are you using a washer between the machine and the pad? A couple of years ago folks here went through a 'melting plate' phase and attributed it to not using a fiberboard or cardboard between the plate and the machine. Too much heat transfers from the machine into the pad mounting screw if the washer isn't there. IIRC, cheap cardboard washers can be found at Lowes. I got a washer made from circuit board material with either the backing plate or the PC, I don't recall which.
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Huh?!? How did I miss that :confused:



I don't see how it would work either.. There isn't much room between the machine housing and the plate (barely enough for the supplied wrench) and, well, I don't see how a cardboard washer would stop any heat transfer anyhow; it's not like the backing plate contacts the housing, any heat transfer would be directly through the plate to the mounting stud.



No mention of such a thing in my PC literature either.



This really has me :think: I just don't follow..
 
Wow, I've been detailing for over 6 years now and I have definitely come into the thinking that the longer you polish an area, the move defects are removed. This thinking has been holding very true from my experiences, which is now hurting me...



I usually polish an area for at least 3 minutes it seems, maybe even 6 frankly (I've never really timed myself), and this is on the pc at speed 6, because I find any lower speed doesn't do anything for correction. I find that when correcting some hacked paints with the pc-xp, whether a big 6.5 inch pad or a little 4 inch pad, I generate a TON of heat that, after one or two panels the glue holding the pad and velcro felt come loose and the pad is useless (it seems to distort at speed). Yesterday I actually had a pad completely separate from the felt after removing it from the backing plate.



Fellow autopian highrev1 mentioned that I don't allow the pad to spin with a dual action movement, so I have now reduced pressure to keep the pad spinning properly. Even after this change in method, I still get massive heat production and I am now overheating every cutting pad I get!



I want more corrective abilities, and I am thinking of getting the FLEX...but being that the FLEX is more powerful I'm thinking I'm just going to melt pads faster, making the more powerful machine worthless.



Excuse me for my venting...I'll post up a pic of a very memorable pad this evening.
 
xfire- It sounds to me like you're trying to push the limits of your pad/product combo. Unless you're using a nondiminishing-abrasive product like M105, once the product breaks down it's done, time to inspect and/or reload with fresh product. *SIX MINUTES* sounds like an incredibly long work time for one try. Even three minutes sounds awfully long (are you working some huge area or something?).



Noting that I usually work on *hard* clear, I just don't get things that hot unless I'm really hammering it with the rotaries (and even then I've never cooked a pad).



I wonder if you'd be better off with something like M105. Within half a minute, it's *DONE* unless you reactivate it with water/etc. (and that's something you'd better think twice about unless you're doing something deliberately that calls for that).



Heh heh, if you start getting things really hot with a Flex 3401 you might be calling the paint shop ;)
 
Xfire- Did you put that black line on the backing plate like I suggested to ensure you were getting thep pad to spin?



DSC_0616.jpg
 
Accumulator said:
Huh?!? How did I miss that :confused:



I don't see how it would work either.. There isn't much room between the machine housing and the plate (barely enough for the supplied wrench) and, well, I don't see how a cardboard washer would stop any heat transfer anyhow; it's not like the backing plate contacts the housing, any heat transfer would be directly through the plate to the mounting stud.



No mention of such a thing in my PC literature either.



This really has me :think: I just don't follow..
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I have a cardboard washer for my PC as well. Wouldn't be able to use one of my BP without it because the plate DOES contact the housing.
 
Pads have a porous nature-(closed cell less so) and spinning the pad allows airflow to cool the pad. If you press down on the pad hard enough to stop the pad from spinning chances are you are overheating the foam.



With Ultimate compound the non diminishing abrasive continuously cuts so it would seem as if the faster the pad spins the more cutting that will occur-sort of like making a PC a small rotary. You don't need to grind the pad into the paint to get the pad to do the cutting.
 
Accumulator said:
xfire- It sounds to me like you're trying to push the limits of your pad/product combo. Unless you're using a nondiminishing-abrasive product like M105, once the product breaks down it's done, time to inspect and/or reload with fresh product. *SIX MINUTES* sounds like an incredibly long work time for one try. Even three minutes sounds awfully long (are you working some huge area or something?).



Noting that I usually work on *hard* clear, I just don't get things that hot unless I'm really hammering it with the rotaries (and even then I've never cooked a pad).



I wonder if you'd be better off with something like M105. Within half a minute, it's *DONE* unless you reactivate it with water/etc. (and that's something you'd better think twice about unless you're doing something deliberately that calls for that).



Heh heh, if you start getting things really hot with a Flex 3401 you might be calling the paint shop ;)
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Yea, I definitely try to get the most out of a product with one pass. It's been very difficult getting away from performing long work times ...every time I try in the back of my head there is a little voice saying "keep going, get those last swirls out." Six minutes is definitely for a fairly large area, like half the hood of an SL63.



I will definitely focus on getting faster polishing times. I will say though, that Menzerna polishes take a while to break down, especially compared to 105!



@ Greg: I'm going to add that next time I polish for sure!



As promised, a picture of some pads that have been overcooked...I think the backing plate got sick of working for us:



sfb34m.jpg
 
D&D Auto Detail said:
I have a cardboard washer for my PC as well. Wouldn't be able to use one of my BP without it because the plate DOES contact the housing.
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Huh! I've just neer seen that :think: Neither of my PCs came with one, nor do I have plate/housing interference issues with any of my (numerous) backing plates :nixweiss



xfire said:
Yea, I definitely try to get the most out of a product with one pass. It's been very difficult getting away from performing long work times ...every time I try in the back of my head there is a little voice saying "keep going, get those last swirls out." Six minutes is definitely for a fairly large area, like half the hood of an SL63.
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Ah, that's informative. I'd consider working *MUCH* smaller areas when using M105. Even with pretty big pads, I seldom work areas larger than just 1' x 1'! Yep, I usually don't even like to work the "normal" two-foot-square area especially when using M105, not by a long shot.



What really jumps out at me from your pic is that you appear to be using *MUCH* larger pads than I'd ever use via PC. For serious correction, I stick with 4" ones, which actually work a lot faster for me than larger pads.



But I'd still buy a Flex ;)
 
xfire said:
Yea, I definitely try to get the most out of a product with one pass. It's been very difficult getting away from performing long work times ...every time I try in the back of my head there is a little voice saying "keep going, get those last swirls out." Six minutes is definitely for a fairly large area, like half the hood of an SL63.



I will definitely focus on getting faster polishing times. I will say though, that Menzerna polishes take a while to break down, especially compared to 105!



@ Greg: I'm going to add that next time I polish for sure!



As promised, a picture of some pads that have been overcooked...I think the backing plate got sick of working for us:



sfb34m.jpg
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Thats pretty crazy, Ive used my DA for 6hrs straight and never had my backing plate melt, ive never even melted a rotary backing plate
 
Just wait until you melt 4, send the last one back to LC as its the "unmeltable" version, then help develop another version :lol



Eric wouldn't let me keep mine to hang on the wall since he told me to send it to him :(
 
eyezack87 said:
Just wait until you melt 4, send the last one back to LC as its the "unmeltable" version, then help develop another version :lol



Eric wouldn't let me keep mine to hang on the wall since he told me to send it to him :(
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I want the unmeltable version!!
 
Melted plates, snapped shafts...heavens. With the right pads/products you can do serious correction (i.e., sanding scratches) on hard paint without such extreme measures, even if it does take a little time.



Maybe I'm just chicken, but doing extreme stuff seems like a good way to have an "oops!" to me. While I know it sounds :nono I'm starting to think "right tool for the job" and "mindset".....
 
eyezack87 said:
They came out with more models after that haha. I stopped using my PC after I snapped the rotating shaft in half :p
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If you are producing enough heat to melt a backing plate I wonder how hot the paint is getting:scared: I can't help but think this isn't a healthy long term method.
 
Accumulator said:
Melted plates, snapped shafts...heavens. With the right pads/products you can do serious correction (i.e., sanding scratches) on hard paint without such extreme measures, even if it does take a little time.



Maybe I'm just chicken, but doing extreme stuff seems like a good way to have an "oops!" to me. While I know it sounds :nono I'm starting to think "right tool for the job" and "mindset".....
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Haha, it took the snapped shaft to make me buy a rotary since I was able to do the work of a rotary with my PC. This was wayyyy before the Kevin Brown method came out for M105 (I was using Menz PG). I must've logged over 200 hours on my PC before it snapped :)



On the other hand, it was about 12 hours of heavy polishing before I melted my first backing plate lol

wannafbody said:
If you are producing enough heat to melt a backing plate I wonder how hot the paint is getting:scared: I can't help but think this isn't a healthy long term method.
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Paint was fine. The machine was warmer than usual though. You hear about melted plates all the time. I wrote it off as a faulty product, which most of the time it was. No adverse effects other than a snapped shaft but that was hours and hours after (look above for the time interval). Its about the same as using the KBM method you could say. Then again, it did happen 1 day before the warranty expired so that was mighty convenient :lol
 
If you're running a PC for 12 hours with little downtime I can see the overheating issue. It might be a good idea to have more than one machine for long detailing sessions. Use one and switch to allow the first one a cool down period.
 
Not a bad idea to have a backup unit for *anything* that's remotely essential ;)



I keep thinking I oughta get a spare Flex even though I hardly ever do correction any more.
 
wannafbody said:
If you're running a PC for 12 hours with little downtime I can see the overheating issue. It might be a good idea to have more than one machine for long detailing sessions. Use one and switch to allow the first one a cool down period.
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Yup. Though I just kept switching backing plates since the machine cooled down relatively fast. I made a system where I'd swap from 6in and 4in pads frequently to keep the heat from getting to just one plate the whole time. Worked pretty well before the shaft snapped

Accumulator said:
Not a bad idea to have a backup unit for *anything* that's remotely essential ;)



I keep thinking I oughta get a spare Flex even though I hardly ever do correction any more.
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I had 3. PC, rotary, rotary. Sold the extra rotary though since I didn't touch it in over a year :lol
 
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