KBM- Pad Priming and Supplemental Wetting Agents

[(901)]

I think that if I would have posted a small piece, waited for a response, added more, waited for another post, and so on, it might have worked better.

I think you may be right :nervous:



Wanna start this thing over :clap2:

 

[gmblack3]

Kevin, Thank you very much for all that you do!!!



I had drifted away from using water as a booster when polishing. Bret and I read that section the other day while having some lunch during the "black audi from hell" detail. We filled a few spray bottles with water and even though we still got our asses handed to us, the water does help.

:hifive:

 

[David Fermani]

This is great info! Thanks for posting it. You've single handedly changed the way people look at DA correction I've briefly skimmed through it, but will surely revisit this many more times to allow it to slowly soak in. Also a great thread if anyone wants to link it in other discussions.



EDIT: I also rated this thread with 5 stars in the "Rate This Thread" drop down above.

 

[Accumulator]

..[Accumulator], I kinda see you as the "gauge" here on autopia.... If you say it's a good read, I am happy!..

Hey, thanks...I'm flattered.

I counted on you as being one of the eight or so guys that would read it....[right away and straight through ]... you did not let me down!

Wouldn't have missed it And BTW, I found your "raking your hair" and "thick/thin noodles" stuff analogous to wash media too, gotta use those some time (with proper accreditation of course).

Bret and I read that section the other day while having some lunch during the "black audi from hell" detail. We filled a few spray bottles with water and even though we still got our asses handed to us, the water does help.

As a guy who does Audis more than anthing else, and who ofen uses the water/M105/RO-DA approach on them, I can sympathize. And I'm looking forward to reading all about it.

 

[Bill D]

Just wanted to say, I clicked on the Print button and this one is definitely getting spiral bound in my collection of informative detailing articles I've complied across the years. It's how I always tried to self teach myself. Thanks very much, Kevin. I will no doubt read this several times over and go back and refer to it often.

 

[SVR]

Superbly informative article Sir. I ordered some Surbuf pads and may end up getting the Megs DA MF pads as well and trying them on a rotary, DA and an RO



Black Baron has been my go to lubricant for wool and foam pads as well as lubricating microfibre towels before use so that they cannot marr the finish at all and residue is removed easier



I use it neat to prime pads and diluted in many ratio's for other things.

Water is still good but with polishes using stoddard solvent naptha, kerosene, cyclohexasiloxane and pentasiloxane (lubricant from skin care industry) as lubricant for the abrasives, it makes the polishes flash off and dry up

Don't use those or compounds at all so thats an advantage.



There's no doubt that DA and RO polishing has come a long way and I love using them but there is one thing I haven't seen them do that a rotary with the right pad and two products on their own can do - orange peel removal.



thus the rotary is still my #1 tool

 

[Kevin Brown]

Superbly informative article Sir. I ordered some Surbuf pads and may end up getting the Megs DA MF pads as well and trying them on a rotary, DA and an RO

Thanks!



I think it's a good move to get the Surbuf as well as the Meguiar's DA Microfiber Discs. I've tried the Surbuf on a rotary just "to see" quite some time ago (been using them since about 2004, off and on). I knew there wouldn't be much benefit, if any, over a wool pad because the fibers pack down pretty easily, you're not gaining a lot by spinning the pad faster except quicker cutting, at least until the particles attach to the pad (which isn't all that long). They work much better for me on the random orbital.

Water is still good but with polishes using stoddard solvent naptha, kerosene, cyclohexasiloxane and pentasiloxane (lubricant from skin care industry) as lubricant for the abrasives, it makes the polishes flash off and dry up

Don't use those or compounds at all so thats an advantage.

Right.

I don't use the water as a lubricant replacement because of the reasons you state. We see eye to eye on this subject, and the article addresses the topic specifically in the "Water Spritzing- the Nitrous of Paint Polishing?" section.



I don't use water at all for final polishing.

But, once those solvents you speak of get trapped in the pad above the hard abrasives, or the solvents soak into the pad, or they evaporate, the water can loosen the abrasives and get them a'rollin along once again. A bit of scouring is almost assured, (also mentioned).



I agree that water can displace the built-in lubricants, but I don't know that they flash off more quickly if they are mixed, or diluted by the water via agitated interaction. Hmm... just don't factually know, but I suspect not. Rinse them away? Yes. Make them float away? Perhaps. Change them via coagulation, maybe. None of those are a good thing.

There's no doubt that DA and RO polishing has come a long way and I love using them but there is one thing I haven't seen them do that a rotary with the right pad and two products on their own can do - orange peel removal.

I see.

I haven't gone the wool pad/compound route to orange peel removal for quite some time- the late 1980's perhaps. I used to, with limited success, on non-catalyzed paints, but with the catalyzed stuff- it just requires too much speed to level, and the speed builds heat... well, you know the deal. This is my preference- you may have great success removing orange peel via buffing, so more power to you!



That being said...

I have seen (see) a random orbital out-level a rotary and a wool pad, and it was/is done using one pad and one compound. The combo is the 7" Surbuf paired with Meguiar's M105 Ultra-Cut Compound. To clarify this was (is) done after wet sanding, so I sanded (sand) the orange peel away.



Maximum speed, very light pressure, Last Touch diluted 50/50 or more. water is fine, too. It really works if you get the right touch. Not saying it is easy, nor necessarily faster than a rotary. It just leveled better, by quite a bit.



I do not know your buffing abilities, so would not dare try to categorize or rate your skills when wielding the rotary- I suspect they are pretty darned good.



I do know my abilities, which I would rank as at least above average to excellent.



To be clear- I am not at all trying to disrespect your opinion, nor shoot holes in what you are theorizing. I am trying to be accurate in writing my thoughts and statements so that anyone following along understands me clearly.



I appreciate your insight and sharing your experience.

I really enjoy this sort of discussion because a lot can be learned. Thanks. :rockon:

 

[Kevin Brown]

Kevin, Thank you very much for all that you do!!!



I had drifted away from using water as a booster when polishing. Bret and I read that section the other day while having some lunch during the "black audi from hell" detail. We filled a few spray bottles with water and even though we still got our asses handed to us, the water does help.

:hifive:

Hey, glad to know something I recommended helped you!

If there's one guy that jumped in with both feet and gave the random orbital an honest try early-on, it was you.

This is great info! Thanks for posting it. You've single handedly changed the way people look at DA correction I've briefly skimmed through it, but will surely revisit this many more times to allow it to slowly soak in. Also a great thread if anyone wants to link it in other discussions.



EDIT: I also rated this thread with 5 stars in the "Rate This Thread" drop down above.

Thank you David. I appreciate the credit you gave me, but I'm just the guy that said, "Hey- try it like this and it just may work for you, too." The goods were already out there and readily available. Really, credit must go to the people that make the pads and liquids.

Just wanted to say, I clicked on the Print button and this one is definitely getting spiral bound in my collection of informative detailing articles I've complied across the years. It's how I always tried to self teach myself. Thanks very much, Kevin. I will no doubt read this several times over and go back and refer to it often.

This is great news!!

 

[Accumulator]

I have seen (see) a random orbital out-level a rotary and a wool pad, and it was/is done using one pad and one compound. The combo is the 7" Surbuf paired with Meguiar's M105 Ultra-Cut Compound. ...Maximum speed, very light pressure, Last Touch diluted 50/50 or more. water is fine, too. It really works if you get the right touch. Not saying it is easy, nor necessarily faster than a rotary. It just leveled better, by quite a bit...

Which RO polisher were you using for that?

 

[Kevin Brown]

Which RO polisher were you using for that?

Meguiar's original G110, which I still use. The same machine I used to write this article:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/116878-surbuf-pad-paired-m105-pc-defect-killer.html



The microfingers on the Surbuf pad are actually quite thick compared to the individual strands used to make a wool pad, so when they're moving along at a rapid clip, they can level surprisingly well.



That G110 can deliver a LOT of rotation. While I don't have the eyeball speed of an Eight-Eyed Jumping Spider, my best guess puts pad rotation at upwards of 10-12 turns per second, or 600-720 RPM @ over 6,000 RPM/OPM.



And sure, we can plop the pad on a rotary and get way more speed than that, but the microfingers tend to lay over in a backwards bent direction and stay there, eventually packing together and becoming ineffective. The offset rotation delivered by the random orbital helps avoid it happening so quickly, while the oscillation speed scrubs a lot of paint in a hurry.



Very quick. Like a gaggles of bionic, balsa wood, titanium-infused, long-saw log-cutting stickmen quick. Olympian-grade stickmen, not those slouchy weak-kneed ones. And their power drink of choice? Nitromethane. No, wait- Hexane. And they smoke nitrous oxide, long draw firecrackers... oh!- and they're caffeine-infused firecrackers that have 300 farad cylindrical capacitors sections built into them designed to take up the lag time...



:blah:

 

[SVR]

Thanks for your reply to my post. There's no doubt that I don't know everything and some of what you put into the article I did not know fully

Even though I've been using a rotary for 10 years and 17 in the industry, there is still so much to learn, share and produce from these very technical discussions



Aint got a problem with anything any person posts on here, if I don't know it, you or someone else will teach me it. There is so much science and art to machine polishing and I dare say, we have not seen the very best power tools, products and technique in this part of detailing yet. Nowhere near. I used a PC 7424 in america last year with excellent results

though when applying LSP's at speed 1, my makita 6030 is better. It runs at 10,000 OPM at its highest speed so can still correct



As for orange peel removal, its the type of pad, how worn it is and the product used

The speed with the rotary (makita 9227 or Festool Shinex) is between 1200 and 1500 for peel removal. its not the rpm speed that works, its the speed of the arm movement. its alot more than 1 inch per second which is the common speed for correction



And so far, there are only two products that allow us to do it and they are both single polish systems, not strictly compounds and have the viscosity of runny thickened cream, not thick gluggy compound.



Anyhow, I really hope we can start some more technical discussions as thats what I love the most because I can increase my knowledge



P.S. I wonder how technique may change with the paramagnetic and powdered paints, if at all

 

[Accumulator]

Kevin Brown- Meguiar's G110, huh? :think: Should I have to do a serious correction again any time soon (which hopefully won't happen ) I'll have to revisit the SurBuf/M105 combo.

 

[Kevin Brown]

To be clear, the Surbuf excels at leveling, or minimizing the peaks and valleys created by scratching and sanding.



For defect removal throughout a typical painted panel, meaning one that has texture, the Meguiar's DA Microfiber Discs are better able to gloss up all of the nuances of the surface. In other words, the microfiber material is more pliable, and can easily squish and contort, thus enabling the abrasive in the buffing liquid to accomplish polishing.



Both are great. Side-by-side on a typical panel, you will see a bit more accurate reflection on the Surbuf side, so it is eliminating "orange peel" to a small degree.



The DA Microfiber Disc side will feature more clarity, and on dark colored, clear coated paints, the colors will look darker, the metallics more sparkly. This is because the whitish haze caused by scratches in the clear is eliminated.

 

[SVR]

cant wait to use the surbufs on a rotary with xpert ultra 1000 single polish on some test panels and see if I can do same or better orange peel reduction than wool

 

[Accumulator]

To be clear, the Surbuf excels at leveling, or minimizing the peaks and valleys created by scratching and sanding.



For defect removal throughout a typical painted panel, meaning one that has texture, the Meguiar's DA Microfiber Discs are better able to gloss up all of the nuances of the surface....

Yeah, copy that (the distinction between "leveling" and "polishing" ).

...on a typical panel, you will see a bit more accurate reflection on the Surbuf side, so it is eliminating "orange peel" to a small degree...

Now the *orange peel reduction" *is* news to me, wouldn't have thunk it, so thanks for the info.

 

[Accumulator]

cant wait to use the surbufs on a rotary...

Watch that the SurBuf "fingers" don't flop-and-lie-over too much (via rotary).

 

[Kevin Brown]

The whole pad priming and supplemental wetting agent deal on autopia kind of snuck onto the scene. A guy on TID forum recently asked for some tips on how to use M105/M205 with a rotary.



I pointed him to this October 2008 thread about the rotary:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/112746-2-passes-m105-wool-no-luck.html





This October 2008 thread offered up a procedure for the D/A that would allow it to deliver rotary-like defect removal capability:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-de...erestimates-power-pc-help-me-get-my-poin.html





I believe that these two threads showed the power of pad priming and supplemental wetting agents, and a lot of guys gave these methods a try for the first time after reading these threads.



October 2008 was an exciting time for me on autopia...

my bags were packed in case things went awry... :scared:

 

[Accumulator]

Kevin Brown- Hey, thanks for those links. It was interesting to revisit those two threads, for a number of reasons.

 

[Kevin Brown]

To maximize cutting and finishing potential of the Meguiar's DA Microfiber discs, I cut down larger plate to better fit the discs. Well, I think it's better. :rockon:



Cut down backing plates work very well for foam pads, too.



To mechanically optimize the DA Discs, the pad must be supported to the outer edge. Since Meguiar's does not currently offer a backing plate exactly the same diameter, I cut down a Meguiar's W68DA plate to the same size. It cuts very easy- a pair of scissors will work.



I used a carpet razor knife to cut these plates, then sanded the edges using 80 grit and then 150 grit sandpaper. The studs were chucked in a handheld electric drill, and I pushed the knife into the foam as the plate was spinning. Then, I sanded in the same manner. Make sure to wear eye protection! :scared:



This is the Meguiar's W68DA, backside shot:

This is the Meguiar's W68DA, face shot:

Notice that the Velcro® does not cover the entire plate.

It was designed for the 2.0 Soft Buff pads.

I cut the pad down to within a couple millimeters of the Velcro®.



The cut down version is set atop the uncut version:

This is how it looks once the backing plate is mounted to the disc:

This is the recommended W67DA set atop the cut down W68DA:

...A stiffer plate delivers maximum cut, but they're a bit harder to cut down.

I used a Mirka 106GG because I had some in stock, and they have proven to be bulletproof for me:



Mirka 106GG:

The cut down version set atop the uncut version:

This is how it looks once the backing plate is mounted to the disc:

Obviously, if you use the stiff plate, you'll need to be careful on curved surfaces. The W68DA is soft, so even it it happened to contact a surface accidentally, damage potential would be comparatively low.



But!- for leveling, severe defect removal, for defect or sanding mark removal next to body trim, etc., and final polishing, the discs have delivered much better results for me when they are supported to the outer edge. My best guess would be somewhere in the 30% improved range for cutting potential, and an immeasurable amount for finish polishing.



Good luck!

 

[gmblack3]

Great info as always KB!