KAIO + KSG + P21s + Black Paint = Haze after every wash. Help!

R

rchrest

New member
*****UPDATE******



Finally figured out the problem. My p21s shampoo arrived today. Used a small amount of product in wash.... and 5 min later..... after drying..... paint is crystal clear! Not a single streak. I might actually wash my hair with this shampoo. What a relief! Thanks for all the input! And for what it's worth: 6 hrs between KSG coats won't give you streaks!



KAIO x 1

KSG x 5

P21s X 3



2005 Brilliant Black Audi paint....



After using Meguiar's shampoo, and not too much.... the paint gets a thick swirl-looking haze after I dry it. I can see every swipe I take with the waffle weave. In order to get it off, I have to quick detail with moderate pressure and buff off with a dry MF towel. Paint has good gloss after all this work, but it is very, very annoying that a wash job takes this long. Same thing happens with Meg's QD. Has to be buffed off. If there is another wash / qd product combo that would work better, what is it? Please help!!

 
i cant figure what im doing wrong...ive tried megs nxt and gold class wash, ive tried giving it a extra long rinse?



all my washing/drying tools are clean
 
That sounds like a pain!



Dunno just what's going on, but I'd try isolating the variables so you can eliminate them one by one.



If the wash/dry media is *clean*, as in no residue, then that would eliminate that. Detergent residue might be one problem. I'd put some vinegar in the final rinse, then do *another* rinse cycle and look in the machne while it's doing it- see if there are any more suds. (Yeah, the way you saw it before drying sorta eliminates this, but I'd check it anyhow.)



Is your water especially hard? You could be getting some kind of deposits from that.



Are you using too strong a shampoo mix? I never use as much as they recommend.



Otherwise, I'd blame the shampoo/LSP combo; some shampoos just don't work well with some LSPs. I've had good results with Meg's #62 as well as my favorite, Griot's.



Watch that you don't let the shampoo dwell on the panels too long, it might be lightly compromising your LSP, especially if it's a strong mix.



With the QD issue, I'd expect it to be simply a case of its not being compatible with the P21S, but that's assuming there isn't some residue on your MFs. Again, watch that you don't let it dwell too long before buffing it off.
 
Well, the wash mitt I used today was brand new, straight out of the plastic packaging. I could see the haze during the wash, before drying.



--This rules out a wash mitt with detergent residue.



Haze was more intense after WW drying.



--Could be residue in WW, except I use MF conditioner added to detergent with every load.



Quick detailer (Meg's) has to be buffed off.



--Trend here is Meguiar's shampoo and QD, both of which I used sparingly.



So, the next question is, is the P21s shampoo the most compatible with my P21s finish? Would Griots give the same results? What would be the most compatible QD spray?
 
Could be you are applying the wax too thickly or have too many applications without enough time in between each layer and washing is just pushing it around on the surface. Start all over and just use the Klasse twins and see if you still get the hazing.
 
If anything I put the KSG on with minimal cure time. P21s got a day in between applications. I'm leaning toward shampoo, qd / lsp incompatibility.
 
I'm using AIO + P21S and I'm having some streaking as well... I've attached a pic of it.

xcrxch.jpg
 
This is *exactly* what I experienced 2 years ago on my dark blue Lexus using AIO, then KSG, topped with Souveran (specifically, AIOx2, KSGx5, Souveran x as often as I had time after a wash).



I would buff the haze out as (as you describe) and after the next wash, there is was. Believe me, I tried everything to keep from having to strip off all the KSG layers...if you want more details, let me know.



I finally fixed it by starting back over from the AIO step. AIO x2 (same day) and waited 24 hours. Then 4 layers of KSG, at least 24 hours in between each. Lived with it that way for about 3 weeks, then topped with Souveran again. All was well.



Best guess I can make is that the wax topper was put on too soon, and the KSG never bonded correctly to the AIO. Talk about frustration, I would wash the car, QD it, and these horrendous looking swirls would appear that weren't there after the wash...in reality, they weren't swirls, but an oily film on the paint that would *reappear* after a couple days....



I'd suggest using something like AIO to strip everything off, and start from there again, making sure each layer is properly "set" before moving on. That's the only thing that worked for me.



blue skies,

Andrew
 
hook said:
I'd suggest using something like AIO to strip everything off, and start from there again, making sure each layer is properly "set" before moving on. That's the only thing that worked for me.



blue skies,

Andrew
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Yikes! I put so much time into this detail. I ordered the P21s Bodyworks Conditioning Shampoo and DP Waterless Auto Wash for QD. I'll see if this change makes any difference.
 
I have experienced this a couple of years ago as well when I first started using SG and layering a carnauba wax - After much experimentation, I figured that not waiting the proper amount of curing time was causing the problem. I believe some sealants are more lenient that others when it comes to recommended cure times...but regardless of humidity or temperature, I always wait at least 24 hours to apply anything over SG. This may sound extremely high-level and stupid, but I believe the wax was "mixing" with the uncured portion of SG which caused the hazing...somewhat similar to the reason why sealants need to stay dry during the curing period. This would be my best guess.



MCA
 
rchrest said:
KAIO x 1

KSG x 5

P21s X 3



2005 Brilliant Black Audi paint....



After using Meguiar's shampoo, and not too much.... the paint gets a thick swirl-looking haze after I dry it. I can see every swipe I take with the waffle weave. In order to get it off, I have to quick detail with moderate pressure and buff off with a dry MF towel. Paint has good gloss after all this work, but it is very, very annoying that a wash job takes this long. Same thing happens with Meg's QD. Has to be buffed off. If there is another wash / qd product combo that would work better, what is it? Please help!!
Click to expand...



I tried the same process except I used natty's blue for wax on the black part of my doors. After wiping off the wax it left a haze on the paint. Maybe I didn't wait long enough like Scott mentioned. However...I should've stopped aftere the SG because the paint had a lot of depth without the wax. :think2
 
Yikes! I put so much time into this detail. I ordered the P21s Bodyworks Conditioning Shampoo and DP Waterless Auto Wash for QD. I'll see if this change makes any difference.
Click to expand...



Believe me, I know. I hope it helps, but I know I tried *everything* I could think of (and some things that fellow autopians thought of, as well) and nothing got rid of it. I finally got fed up with having to spend som much time removing the "oily swirls" that I bit the bullet and did it...



blue skies,

Andrew
 
Had a friendly and helpful conversation with P21s. According to them, I have way too much "oil" on my paint with that many KSG coats. They recommend one coat of KSG before topping with P21s. Lots of detailing down the drain here, literally, with the next dawn wash.
 
rchrest said:
Had a friendly and helpful conversation with P21s. According to them, I have way too much "oil" on my paint with that many KSG coats. They recommend one coat of KSG before topping with P21s. Lots of detailing down the drain here, literally, with the next dawn wash.
Click to expand...



The folks at P21s might've been friendly, but I wouldn't call their info/advice "helpful". IMO you've received incorrect info. I'm not sure what the solution to your problem is, but IMO stripping off all your work is almost certainly not it (and my opinion is based on a lot of experience with the Klasse twins, both with and without carnauba toppers).



Note that the people at P21s might not be the greatest of authorities on Klasse products and that I'd *expect* them to blame the Klasse. After all, they're sure not gonna blame their own wax ;)



KSG doesn't put "oil" on the paint, that's what carnaubas like the P21s do. KSG cures and becomes stable. The only time people have issues with it is when they've applied it thick and it "blooms" after a while due to the excess (pros here have had some problems with this, especially on black). Even then you don't need to strip it, just rebuff with a Klasse-friendly QD.



I've topped *six* layers of KSG with carnauba with no problems at all. Kept topping it for months and then left it untopped for many *more* months, worked fine.



Dawn won't strip the KSG anyhow (probably won't even strip all the wax), but IMO you don't *need* to strip it. If you really want to redo things just use rubbing alcohol to compromise both the LSPs and redo the AIO to clean it all up. But *oh man* I wouldn't do that.



As mentioned, let the KSG cure for a while before topping it. I no longer top mine, but when I did I let it go until the first wash after applying SG- I'd top it after *that* wash.



Also, try letting the P21S set up longer before buffing it off. Yeah, I know that the conventional wisdom is to W-O-W-O but IMO (based on first-hand experience under controlled conditions) that conventional wisdom is *wrong*. I believed it until Mike Phillips of Meguiar's challenged me to experiment and lo and behold he was right. Just apply the wax (or any other LSP except Victoria brand wax) nice and thin and let it dry before you buff it off.
 
Accumulator said:
Also, try letting the P21S set up longer before buffing it off. Yeah, I know that the conventional wisdom is to W-O-W-O but IMO (based on first-hand experience under controlled conditions) that conventional wisdom is *wrong*. I believed it until Mike Phillips of Meguiar's challenged me to experiment and lo and behold he was right. Just apply the wax (or any other LSP except Victoria brand wax) nice and thin and let it dry before you buff it off.
Click to expand...



Thanks for the insight. Do you think I could simply apply another coat of P21s and let it dry before buffing? Think I could avoid starting over by doing this?
 
Accumulator said:
If you really want to redo things just use rubbing alcohol to compromise both the LSPs and redo the AIO to clean it all up. But *oh man* I wouldn't do that.
Click to expand...



Thinking back.... I don't recall getting the haze after the last KSG application. I had to wait a few days before I could start applying the P21s. I guess it might be the P21s that is causing the oily finish? Back to the re-application idea, drying completely before buffing off. How does one use the isopropyl alcohol to strip wax? Never done this...
 
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