I've think I've lost all faith in detailing...

N

neoprufrok

New member
Well, as some of you know, I've been having difficulty with holographic swirls... the kind you can't see with halogens but are painfully obvious with direct sunlight.



Today, I tried DACP with yellow pad followed by PI3MG with white pad followed by GEPC and P21s Carnuaba.



I nearly cried when I saw the finish. It's worse than before with the slight haze that DACP seems to always bring me that I can't seem to get rid of. In fact the areas that were taped off (some paint was not exposed to DACP because I taped fof the seams and plastic panelling) had much less hazing and less hologrphic swirls than the areas I did today.



I don' tknow where I"m going wrong, but I am almost ready to give up completely. Other cars are looking better than mine and they are years older. I'm not interested either in buying more things, cause that money can be used for other things.



It's even more frustrating considering that I have been doing this for so long on mnay cars.



Sorry for the rant, but this is highly frustrating - anyone konw a good detailer in the bay area? I most likely will need a consultation as I havea show to go to April 10th.
 
Holy crap...that would really frustrate me. I hope I don't run into the same problems. I'm new to the rotary and can't even get it to run really smoothly. Can you give me any tips on that?



Anyway, you might think about finishing with a finishing pad, if you have one. Also, what type + size pads are you using?



Are you doing the entire car?



Maybe you should just focus on one area next time you give it a go, so you're not making the same mistakes on the entire car.



I've had a slight problem with buffer swirls, but I think mine was from using too harsh of compound and buffing until dry. AFIK, it is best to quit buffing before the product drys up, so you aren't scrubbing your pad and dry product against the paint.
 
is it just this car? you could try it on a different car and figure out if it is something wrong with your paint or something wrong with your detailing.
 
neoprufrok said:
Today, I tried DACP with yellow pad followed by PI3MG with white pad followed by GEPC and P21s Carnuaba.
Click to expand...

In my experience PI-III MG leaves too much hazing to be dealt with by using GEPC. PI-III FG should follow the MG step. I’ve never been able to achieve a satisfactory (to me) final appearance on my Jet Black paint using even a white pad. My best method to finish with a grey pad for the final step (GEPC or similar) and then to go over it again by hand. Maybe if you have a lot of RO expertise (like GeekySteve or BretFraz) you can skip the hand finishing, but I surely can’t!



As CRXSi90 said, it might work better if you would experiment on one smaller area of the car until you find the technique that works best for you. A hand held obsession lamp is a big help in perfecting your technique - - a floor stand halogen to too much of a PITA to move constantly to get different lighting angles.



Good luck and don’t give up!
 
Thanks for the suggestions and the words of encouragement...



I actually use 2 standmounted 500W halogen lamps... and I carry it with me to each panel. So I see what I'm doing each time. Again, it looks decent under halogen lights, but in direct sunlight it disintegrates into an embarassing collage of holograms.



I've never had this problem before using the PC. I've had a Black Honda which I've actually never had a problem with and I've had a dark blue Acura which has worked fine for me.



Yes, I tested on a spot on the hood.. which worked fine. However, I don't have the luxury (where I live) to pull out into the sunlight once I get in the garage (my neighbor parks behind me).



For both DACP and PI3MG, I worked the product till it was almost gone (one pass after flashing most of the time - which works out to be anywhere from 6-8 passes).



I've used PI3MG in the past with great success on other cars with no leftover hazing.



I think the best thing for me right now is to take a break (I have spent 3 weekends out the past 5 on this) from this. Also, having another Autopian/pro detailer take a look at it would help also.



I've just not ever gotten a recommendation on a good SF Bay detailer.



Finally, it's just real frustrating. As a longtime member here (since the board was first started), I've learned a lot of things and have advanced my abilities considerably. However, I wonder if my luck has run out and I'm just doing something wrong.
 
I take from your posts that it wouldn't be possible to work in the sun where you'd be able to see the problem areas WHILE you work. But one thing I have found that works for me is to sometimes ditch the 500 watt halogens. I was having a similar problem to yours while working with them. They really do show SOME flaws really well. But then the sunlight or those parking lot lights would show me different flaws. So I started experimenting with different lights; from my 75,000 candlepower Ultra-Stinger flashlight, to small LED lights. This may sound stupid, but I finally tried a standard drop light with a regular 75 watt bulb, waving it at different angles over the surface. This lighting made those "hidden" flaws extremely visible. I don't know why it works, but it works very well. Now I use both types of lights (my 500w halogens and the standard drop light) to help show different types of flaws. Each type of light has its strengths and weaknesses.



Hope this helps and you don't lose your motivation. Motivation can be a tough thing to re-acquire sometimes.



Dave
 
neoprufrok,

Sorry to hear about your frustrations. :(

It sounds from your post you are using a PC. These swirls may be beyond he capacity for correction by a PC no matter what series of polishes you are using. :nixweiss Are these holograms all over the vehicle or just on the side panels? Are the holograms after the last session new or just the same uncorrected holograms from before?

Do not give up. Your idea about consulting another detailer is a good one but I believe you can possibly correct your problem by using a compounding product like 3M Light Cut @ 5-6 on the PC. Of course a rotary will easily solve your problem with the products you are already using.

Maybe try: 3M LC check for holograms - paint will be hazed at this point. If no holograms...

DACP - work until product is essentially disappears - shine should be sufficiently improved - check again for holograms. If holograms re-appear you are probably not working the DACP with enough pressure, speed and total breaking down of the polishes components of this product. If no holograms >

3M PI III MG - creates a haze if used with a PC (from my experience with this product) by rotary a high gloss ready for waxing is produced. So if by PC you follow with >

Products like SECP, VM, 3M IHG, etc

Try this procedure on 1 panel only and evaluate. If this corrective action solves your problem jump on the rest of the vehicle and you will easily have time to be ready for you show in 2 weeks.



Be patient and work each 2'x2' area until a complete panel meets your expectations. Do not proceed until 1 panel has reached that goal before moving on to another. The goal is to have the vehicle's appearance at its best in natural light. When this happens it will look great under hi-intensity lightly. So pull it ouside frequently to check your work. I do. :cool:

Hope this helps.
 
neoprufrok- Sorry to hear you're still struggling with this. As per our PMs, it's NOT you, it's the Audi clear and your choice of products. I sympathize with your reluctance to try other products, but I honestly think that's gonna be the answer.



Maybe blkZ28Conv touched on something we missed, his advice sounds good to me and is similar to our previous discussions.



Isn't there SOMEBODY in the Bay area who can help with this? It's not like he's in some backwater...there must be somebody arouond there. The way this is going, Neo's never gonna buy another Audi.



What Dave Holmes says about lighting :xyxthumbs
 
I can sympathize quite a bit being neoprufrok and I have the same car.



In terms of switching products alone, I hope the 1z polishes are the answer, I'm taking this post as a warning that I might want to ditch my 3m PI III MG ,at least on the Audi.



Neoprufrok, hang in there, some how this is going to be resolved and your brilliant black will be brilliant again :xyxthumbs Keep us posted!
 
Thanks everyone for the encouraging words. As I said, I need to step away from the car for now and regroup. My best bet seems to be to try a new combination of polishers. I've gotten a lot of good words about 1z and maybe that's a better line for this issue.



Accumulator: Yes, it seems wierd but I ever since Beau (an old school member from back in the day if you remember) I haven't had a person around here to bounce ideas off of.
 
neoprufrok- Yeah, I *DO* remember Beau! Heh heh, that WAS a while ago!



What about calling some (reputable) exotic car dealership (Bentley, Italian stuff, etc.) and ask about a detailer that THEY would recommend. Or maybe check the AutoInt website and see who they recommend in your area. Life's too short, you need to get this behind you.
 
CRXSi90 said:
Holy crap...that would really frustrate me. I hope I don't run into the same problems. I'm new to the rotary and can't even get it to run really smoothly. Can you give me any tips on that?



Anyway, you might think about finishing with a finishing pad, if you have one. Also, what type + size pads are you using?



Are you doing the entire car?



Maybe you should just focus on one area next time you give it a go, so you're not making the same mistakes on the entire car.



I've had a slight problem with buffer swirls, but I think mine was from using too harsh of compound and buffing until dry. AFIK, it is best to quit buffing before the product drys up, so you aren't scrubbing your pad and dry product against the paint.
Click to expand...



Try this link. There are 5 pages there but it may be worth the read.



http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12377



Anthony
 
neoprufrok said:
Well, as some of you know, I've been having difficulty with holographic swirls... the kind you can't see with halogens but are painfully obvious with direct sunlight.



Today, I tried DACP with yellow pad followed by PI3MG with white pad followed by GEPC and P21s Carnuaba.
Click to expand...



OK, I am not sure what "yellow" pad you are using but if it is a Lake Country pad then it is their "cutting" pad. If this be correct then your problem is in your choice of pad. The DACP is fine because after its initial cleaning stage it breaks down to a finer polishing liquid BUT the yellow cutting pad does not and it continues to cut long after the DACP has broken down.



My suggestion would be to use a white polishing pad with the DACP, or perhaps try the Menzerna IP, followed by a finishing pad and Menzerna FP or something of equal make up.



I hope this helps,

Anthony
 
I wish I were going up north again soon. I might be up there for details in the Auburn area by then but not sure. I will keep your email handy and let you know.



Are you using a rotary or PC?
 
Anthony Orosco said:
OK, I am not sure what "yellow" pad you are using but if it is a Lake Country pad then it is their "cutting" pad. If this be correct then your problem is in your choice of pad. The DACP is fine because after its initial cleaning stage it breaks down to a finer polishing liquid BUT the yellow cutting pad does not and it continues to cut long after the DACP has broken down.



My suggestion would be to use a white polishing pad with the DACP, or perhaps try the Menzerna IP, followed by a finishing pad and Menzerna FP or something of equal make up.



I hope this helps,

Anthony
Click to expand...



Well, I've used the DACP with yellow pad in the past and from Autopians experiences.. this is the rpeferred pad. I haven't had any problems in the past, so this is new and strange.
 
I am sorry to hear about this problem, I am sure Beau would recommend taking a step back and apply some patients.



I have had consistent problems with marks on my Alfa which I do not get on any other car. The first step I would take would be to not use the additional lighting as this seems to magnify any problem. We view cars mostly in natural light so as a fist step, get the paint looking good under natural light and then think about the perfection side of things. Sometimes we need a small win to regain motivation.
 
Man, if Anthony offered me a fix, I believe, based on how helpful he's been in the past and how great his projects always look, I would be more inclined to give it a shot. What he said makes pretty good sense to me, in regards to the product breaking down, but the pad continuing to cut.



But then, that's just me.
 
neoprufrok - - - consider these points:



1) CMA’s yellow pad is more aggressive than the white pad which is more aggressive than the grey pad which is more aggressive than a MF bonnet.



2) 3M’s PI-III Machine Glaze is more aggressive than PI-III Finishing Glaze which is more aggressive than P21S GEPC. PI-III MG, like many other professional products, becomes decreasingly aggressive as it is worked - - but this requires heat so it must be done at high speed by machine, not by hand.



3) Machine polishing is more aggressive than hand polishing.



4) Any pad or product that is abrasive will leave marring in a direct relationship to it’s aggressiveness. Dark and soft paint shows this marring more than light and hard paint.



5) It is far more discouraging when you need to correct the entire car rather than a 2 or 3 square foot area.



Several people have posted their opinions and suggestions; now it’s time for you to start over and do your own thinking and experimenting!
 
neoprufrok said:
Well, I've used the DACP with yellow pad in the past and from Autopians experiences.. this is the rpeferred pad. I haven't had any problems in the past, so this is new and strange.
Click to expand...



Neo,



I would move down the aggressive ladder both in pad and product as your paint is obviously soft and susceptible to marring perhaps more easily than other paint finishes. If I were doing your finish I would start out with a polishing pad and Menzerna Final Polish. If the results were not to my desire I would then stay with the pad choice but move up to Light Cut, DACP or IP and then finish that off with FP and a finishing pad.



A winning finish is not made in the quantity of steps but rather the quality of those steps. It is easy to get caught up in detailing overkill which then leads to frustration so keep it simple:xyxthumbs I am sure if you take the advice given to you so far from others your problem will be solved in short time.





SamIam,



Thank you sir for those kind words:D



Adios,

Anthony
 
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